Royal New Zealand Air Force

[recce.k1]

Seasprite support and spares (or lack of) is becoming critical and looks like defence may even need an interim replacement solution (like defence had with the SH-2F model in the 1990's), even before the formal replacement project is finalised, acquisitions announced, deliveries, reaching IOC, FOC etc (which will likely be years away).

If so what would be some options? Sikorsky, Leanardo or something else from left-field altogether?

Noting that Leonardo has restarted production of the AW159 and appears confident of future orders.

Leonardo eyes new sales for AW159 helicopter

Leonardo Helicopters' UK business is confident of securing additional international orders for its AW159 multirole helicopter over the next year, having recently...

www.janes.com

 

[Todjaeger]

Seasprite support and spares (or lack of) is becoming critical and looks like defence may even need an interim replacement solution (like defence had with the SH-2F model in the 1990's), even before the formal replacement project is finalised, acquisitions announced, deliveries, reaching IOC, FOC etc (which will likely be years away).

If so what would be some options? Sikorsky, Leanardo or something else from left-field altogether?

Noting that Leonardo has restarted production of the AW159 and appears confident of future orders.

Leonardo eyes new sales for AW159 helicopter

Leonardo Helicopters' UK business is confident of securing additional international orders for its AW159 multirole helicopter over the next year, having recently...

www.janes.com

IMO it would be a better idea to fast track a purchase of MH-60R Seahawks, rather than waste time and resources on getting some interim solution.

 

[Redlands18]

IMO it would be a better idea to fast track a purchase of MH-60R Seahawks, rather than waste time and resources on getting some interim solution.

You will also have your number one ally just across the ditch. operating 76 H-60 family Helicopters with all the pros that brings, regards support and trg. If NZ asked really nicely, Australia might even loan a couple of aircraft and personnel to get them up to scratch.

 

[recce.k1]

IMO it would be a better idea to fast track a purchase of MH-60R Seahawks, rather than waste time and resources on getting some interim solution.

That would be the ideal solution (particularly for the longer term) ... but my point being, we may need something interim to fill a potential capability gap shortfall. Even if it were eg another Sikorsky S-70 or H-60 second hand or refurbished product in order to learn how to operate it.

Not sure NZ would get brand new MH-60R's fast-tracked off the production line in time eg if the USN were willing to give some slots up (for Australia, likely. For NZ, not so sure).

 

[Redlands18]

That would be the ideal solution (particularly for the longer term) ... but my point being, we may need something interim to fill a potential capability gap shortfall. Even if it were eg another Sikorsky S-70 or H-60 second hand or refurbished product in order to learn how to operate it.

Not sure NZ would get brand new MH-60R's fast-tracked off the production line in time eg if the USN were willing to give some slots up (for Australia, likely. For NZ, not so sure).

Australia may do though, not sure we are going to need 36 for some time if half our ships are in refit. Might actually be beneficial to Australia for ongoing trg if we don't have enough Anzacs and Hobarts available to deploy aircraft and crews on a regular basis.

 

[Todjaeger]

That would be the ideal solution (particularly for the longer term) ... but my point being, we may need something interim to fill a potential capability gap shortfall. Even if it were eg another Sikorsky S-70 or H-60 second hand or refurbished product in order to learn how to operate it.

Not sure NZ would get brand new MH-60R's fast-tracked off the production line in time eg if the USN were willing to give some slots up (for Australia, likely. For NZ, not so sure).

Yes, but one needs to remember that it takes time to get any order, even and interim one, delivered. First, the decision on what to get needs to be made alongside how many, much to pay, etc. Then the order gets placed with delivery to follow nn months or years later, with air and ground crews then getting stood up and trained so that the capability can see service once it is delivered.

All of this needs to happen for interim and permanent/long-term solutions. The only possible advantages I see in any 'interim' purchase is that, depending on production slots and order books, initial deliveries might be able to take place before a specific piece of kit to use long-term might be deliverable. The other possibly advantage is than an interim piece of kit, particularly if it has a minimal fitout, might cost less.

Some of the downsides are than an interim piece of kit, particularly if it is costly and/or brand new, might become a permanent replacement even if it is not particularly useful or appropriate for the desired role.

IMO a major advantage of the MH-60R 'Romeo' Seahawk is that in addition to being an advanced and effective piece of kit, has a fairly wide user base in the Pacific. Both the USN and RAN operate the MH-60R, with other versions of the Seahawk family operating in the Pacific by the USCG, Japan, Thailand, Taiwan, Singapore and S. Korea.

Something else to consider is what & how any future Kiwi naval helicopter would be armed and kitted out, especially if the helicopter is to be an 'interim' selection. This could become a bit of a problem if something like the AW159 was selected as an interim piece of kit, since the weapons fitout is largely different from anything else in service in the Pacific, apart from a few units in S. Korean service, though those units also are fitted with domestic S. Korean ordnance as well.

 

[Rob c]

If a naval helicopter is coming in on the deck at an altitude of 50 m, and the air search radar is at a height of 20 m, then the radar horizon is ~18.5 km. Not sure how safe or realistically viable it would be for something like a P-8 Poseidon to dive down low enough to break radar contact with a to-be-targeted ship, and then approach and pop-up from a flight altitude of 50 m.

During the A4 days, the under Radar height was 50 ft or about 15.5m, this was maintained by radar altimeter in conjunction with the auto pilot. From memory min launch distance was about 12k. There is no way I would try that with a P8. and I agree we need a long range anti ship missile.

 

[recce.k1]

Australia may do though, not sure we are going to need 36 for some time if half our ships are in refit. Might actually be beneficial to Australia for ongoing trg if we don't have enough Anzacs and Hobarts available to deploy aircraft and crews on a regular basis.

Hmmm interesting "what if" joint ANZAC training scenario ... RAN personnel working jointly with their RNZN operator (and RNZAF maintainer) counterparts to help the NZDF develop the necessary skill-sets and competencies to operate the platform (learning from subject matter experts).

(If so expect to see Kiwi symbols zapped on the airframes! Mind you could be worse by going the whole hog ...

 

[Nighthawk.NZ]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1710157716650627566

Well there is the first C-130J-30 tracking along the production line...

Only Labour has the record of safeguarding national security to deal with climate change & geostrategic competition

and then Little had to go and say the rest of his tweet which we all know is BS... but we will leave that part of his tweet for the proper thread... lol (mutter mutter muter curse swear @ labour ;-) )

 

[Gibbo]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1710157716650627566

Well there is the first C-130J-30 tracking along the production line...

Does this indicate our newbies are coming off the line with underwing tanks?

 

[Rob c]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1710157716650627566

Well there is the first C-130J-30 tracking along the production line...


and then Little had to go and say the rest of his tweet which we all know is BS... but we will leave that part of his tweet for the proper thread... lol (mutter mutter muter curse swear @ labour ;-) )

Looks like it is fitted with underwing fuel tanks. I know it can be done, but there is a drag penalty. I have not seen the range payload figures in this configuration.

 

[At lakes]

Royal New Zealand Air Force C-130J-30 Super Hercules Simulator Takes Off - MilitaryLeak.COM

The first phase of construction of New Zealand’s C-130J-30 Super Hercules flight simulator has been completed in Canada. The life-sized replica cockpit was

militaryleak.com

More on the arrival of the Herc's. The simulator building is being constructed at Whenuapai and is progressing well. The article states that the first aircraft is due in NZ in 2024.

 

[Volkodav]

A little left field but in NZ considering what to replace their NH90 with yet?

It just struck me yesterday that with the small fleets involved, as well as the mountainous terrain, that the Chinook would be a good fit.

Especially if NZ goes for Romeo to replace Sea Sprite, where Romeo could also cover off the shipboard ultility requirement, Chinook could be a very good value for money proposition.

 

[SP_viewer]

A little left field but in NZ considering what to replace their NH90 with yet?

It just struck me yesterday that with the small fleets involved, as well as the mountainous terrain, that the Chinook would be a good fit.

Especially if NZ goes for Romeo to replace Sea Sprite, where Romeo could also cover off the shipboard ultility requirement, Chinook could be a very good value for money proposition.

Unlikely to be Chinook imo, we don't have enough stuff needing hauling around to justify it, and we can't deploy them in any of our ship hangars. The great thing about the NH90 is that it can fold up into HMNZS Aotearoa and HMNZS Canterbury's hangars, and can sling load our L119s just fine while being much smaller than a Chinook. My bet is we either stick with our previous fleet medium/small combo (NH90/A109, Huey/Bell 47) or to a pure medium fleet. The only medium aircraft viable I can think of that are viable replacements are the Blackhawk, AW149, AW101 or H225M maybe. My bets are on the Blackhawk, simply because Australia operates them and with the Seasprite replacement coming up - with Romeos being an option - it would help with interoperability. I'm not sure if the normal UH-60 would fit into our ships, if we were to go Blackhawk I reckon it's a possiblity we go MH-60S (which can fold its tail) if the UH-60 can't fit? Knighthawk would hypothetically be able to sling load two L119s! (would never happen though lol) but more practically it can hold up to 20 troops, same as the NH90. MH-60S can hypothetically also be equipped with Hellfires and Mk54s.

There hasn't been much hinting by the NZDF of any NH90 replacement anytime soon, the RNZAF seems to be coping with them at the moment much better than any other fleet. NZ3302 was the first NH90 to reach 2000 flying hours.

 

[ngatimozart]

A little left field but in NZ considering what to replace their NH90 with yet?

No, there has been no indication that the government sees any reason to replace the NH90 earlier than its current projected term of service. We have had a different experience with it to the Australian Army and many over here see the Australian Army problems as being self-inflicted, which I tend to agree with.

It just struck me yesterday that with the small fleets involved, as well as the mountainous terrain, that the Chinook would be a good fit.

Regardless of fleet sizes, I believe that a CH-47F/G acquisition would be of considerable benefit to NZ. We are short on airframe numbers by 2 - 4 NH90 depending upon who you talk too, and it has been my belief that we do have a requirement for heavy rotary wing lift. Three Chooks would fill that role, possibly four.

Especially if NZ goes for Romeo to replace Sea Sprite, where Romeo could also cover off the shipboard ultility requirement, Chinook could be a very good value for money proposition.

There have been rumours floating around that the NZG is undertaking an urgent lease of AW159 Wildcats because of current Sea Sprite availability and sustainment problems. According to the rumours the first Wildcat is supposed to arrive in December. So far, I haven't seen anything official to indicate such an action is occurring.

 

[At lakes]

There have been rumours floating around that the NZG is undertaking an urgent lease of AW159 Wildcats because of current Sea Sprite availability and sustainment problems. According to the rumours the first Wildcat is supposed to arrive in December. So far, I haven't seen anything official to indicate such an action is occurring.

This could best be described as an opinion piece.

Recently there has been some chatter regarding New Zealand Navy taking a number of leased AW159 Wildcat Helicopters. I don't think the RN will willingly give up any of their own as they only have about 28 on charge, but South Korean navy have 8 which they acquired on or about 2013 or 14 not sure. They were supposed to order 12 more but that order was filled by the Sikorsky Romeo. Also they are taking on charge a number of locally designed and built Naval Helicopters which is the MUH1 Marineon with is a Naval variant of the army Surion. which really would leave the small number of Wildcats they have out in the cold. Maybe Sikorsky have suggested to the ROKN that they would find a good home for them if they purchased 12 more romeo's.

In no way am I suggesting that this is fact its just an opinion

 

[RDB]

No, there has been no indication that the government sees any reason to replace the NH90 earlier than its current projected term of service. We have had a different experience with it to the Australian Army and many over here see the Australian Army problems as being self-inflicted, which I tend to agree with.

The ADF, though, is just one of four NH90 operators who have decided to retire the type from service early. Sweden and Norway will cease operating the platform entirely, while Belgium will retire their NH90s while retaining the NFH90. The underlying reasons cited by these forces have also been consistently reported by other NH/NFH90 operators, the latter have just made a different decision about how to respond.

Sweden, like Australia, also operates the UH/MH-60 platform, so have been able to make a direct comparison between the NH/NFH90 and another contemporary, purpose built military helo.

 

[Maranoa]

The head of the Royal New Zealand Air Force claimed that NZ is also exploring options with its small NH90 fleet during a recent speech in Australia. Belgium, Norway and Sweden have announced that they are also dumping the NH90 citing exactly the same issues as the ADF. The German military aviation community is also not happy. The NH90 could have been so many things, but in reality it was undercooked and NHIndustries is a seriously underperforming entity.

 

[old faithful]

On top of that, logistically, it makes sense.
The Apachce, sea hawks and even the Abrahms tanks all use engines with similar parts, so add a fleet with 40 more common engine parts to the mix.

 

[John Fedup]

Interesting how the NH90 turned out. When Canada wanted to procure a mix of 50 SAR and naval helicopters back in the 1990, the NH90 was considered but the EH101 was what the DND wanted. DND wanted a larger helicopter. Moving on PM Chrétien cancelled the order and at great expense Canada ended up with a SAR version of the EH101 and 20 plus CH-148 LM Cyclones, a paper design at the time. I guess time will time tell if the CH-148 was a better choice. Likely more successful outcome with LM in the long run I think. Better still would have been sticking with the original EH101 order.