Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates 2.0

swerve

Super Moderator
The Hunters are due to get the Thales 2087 Sonar but whether they are French or UK made ones is yet to be announced. Thales has a huge presence in Australia including buying out ADI and building the Bushmaster and Hawkeii vehicles. My comment was mainly about Australia's relationship with France, especially Naval Group but is still good with Thales.
If Australia was to decide to release a project for a Corvette-Light Frigate, would Naval Group respond and if they did, how would it be perceived by the Australian Government/ADF?
Hawkei - made in Australia, & IIRC design leadership was Australian.
Bushmaster - made & designed in Australia. It became a Thales product when Thales bought ADI.

Sonar 2087/CAPTAS-4 - yes, could be made in France or the UK, depending on which version is chosen. Either way, it's reckoned to be an excellent sonar.
 

Systems Adict

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
“Our engineers have already proven that the Hunter can accommodate greater than 96 vertical launch missile cells, if asked to do so.”

Thanks for proving I'm a myopic pom...
:cool:

Moving on - Article DOES STATE the 96 VLS Cells capability - so WHY is everyone getting their undies up in a bunch about it ?

It's there in black n white, quote - "IF asked to do so" - MOVE ON !

No need to argue about if they're at the back or the front, or why haven't we got 196 or 98 or any other variant of a number. The design is still technically fluid & until the CoA / Australian Govt / RAN decide to break cover & tell the world (and the enemy), what will be fitted, it's better to sit on yer hands than start a "he said" / "she said" rant around something that is fully outwith the control of anyone poster / member / admin on this website / forum.

...& finally, anyone who thinks that Australia should just stop, bin Hunter & go for Arleigh Burkes, needs to go look in the mirror & then ask themselves, WHERE are the funds coming from to pay for it. WHERE is the x6 - x7 years that will be needed to argue about what you will actually get & how much it will cost, as well as what that will actually mean for the shipbuilding industry, the Australian economy & the perception of Australia in the wider world.

If you can answer yourself positively, by stating that YOU can do it, the You can pay for it & You will be happy with wasting all the time n money spent, then y'all better go & call your doctor & get him to prescribe one of those nice white hessian jackets, with the long sleeves & leather straps with nice shiny buckles that allow you to hug yourself, while they fasten the straps around your back...

SA
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Thanks for proving I'm a myopic pom...
:cool:

Moving on - Article DOES STATE the 96 VLS Cells capability - so WHY is everyone getting their undies up in a bunch about it ?

It's there in black n white, quote - "IF asked to do so" - MOVE ON !

No need to argue about if they're at the back or the front, or why haven't we got 196 or 98 or any other variant of a number. The design is still technically fluid & until the CoA / Australian Govt / RAN decide to break cover & tell the world (and the enemy), what will be fitted, it's better to sit on yer hands than start a "he said" / "she said" rant around something that is fully outwith the control of anyone poster / member / admin on this website / forum.

...& finally, anyone who thinks that Australia should just stop, bin Hunter & go for Arleigh Burkes, needs to go look in the mirror & then ask themselves, WHERE are the funds coming from to pay for it. WHERE is the x6 - x7 years that will be needed to argue about what you will actually get & how much it will cost, as well as what that will actually mean for the shipbuilding industry, the Australian economy & the perception of Australia in the wider world.

If you can answer yourself positively, by stating that YOU can do it, the You can pay for it & You will be happy with wasting all the time n money spent, then y'all better go & call your doctor & get him to prescribe one of those nice white hessian jackets, with the long sleeves & leather straps with nice shiny buckles that allow you to hug yourself, while they fasten the straps around your back...

SA
"Asked if to do so" wrt 96 VLS, but is this really realistic given the role for these ships? How would this impact on the ASW role? I ask this because the CSC is only going to be 24 (disappointing) but this is likely due to junior not wanting to fund the extra missiles. I was hoping for 32 or maybe 48. Perhaps the 48-96 is a consideration for a future block 2 redesign on the T26 but on the existing design....a bridge too far?
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
No LOTE for CCSM = No Virginia SSN
No Virginia SSN = No SSN AUKUS

The Virginia SSN deal hinges on Australia being able to maintain a credible (re: safe and competent) submarine capability.
SSN AUKUS is too far ahead in the future to hold out to if we don't get Virginia's
So if we don't put Collins through LOTE we are out of the Submarine game
Would that really be the case though?
Let me play devil’s advocate. Without LOTE the Collins class would be withdrawn from service between 2026 and the mid thirties. By then, if all goes to plan, we should have at least two Virginia class boats with a third due by the late thirties.

That may sound disastrous but the reality is that this is a similar situation we found ourselves in when the Collins was introduced. Only two Oberons remained in service when HMAS Collins was commissioned in 1996. The remaining Oberons were decommissioned shortly after. What we now know of course is that the Collins were far from ready at that time and really didn’t become fully operational for several more years.

Manning issues have also always been a problem with Australia keeping its full fleet of Collins operational and that problem could be exacerbated with the introduction of the Virginia class. It is quite possible that Australia simply might not have enough submariners for a couple of Virginias and five or so Collins subs anyway. The Virginia requires a crew of 135 while the Collins needs about 60. Do the maths. We are going to really struggle to crew a couple of Virginias and retain a full fleet of Collins subs anyway.

In other words withdrawing the Collins subs by the mid thirties, while not ideal, might not be a total disaster either.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
...& finally, anyone who thinks that Australia should just stop, bin Hunter & go for Arleigh Burkes, needs to go look in the mirror & then ask themselves, WHERE are the funds coming from to pay for it. WHERE is the x6 - x7 years that will be needed to argue about what you will actually get & how much it will cost, as well as what that will actually mean for the shipbuilding industry, the Australian economy & the perception of Australia in the wider world.
I don't think there is a huge lobby group asking for Burkes, again it would break out local support model. But I do think that will be the American DSR advice, ships as capable as a Burke, ships with 70-100 VLS. This should be the greenlight for gov to change the spec on Batch II to AWD.

The good news is the combat system, radar, ASW, ASuW, etc is basically already there. This is one project where Our fight for high end fit out and growth margin should pay off. Not only that, we will still have greater growth margin and less crewing than a Burke class, and probably a much quieter hull. I do think it will eat somewhat into the flex space. Well I can live with that. They are warships, not commercial cargo carriers. If it limits humanitarian aid capability that is fine. We have LHD's, and other ships. Its time these ships get the loadout they require to carry significant land strike, antishipping, SM-6, Sm-3 etc.
In other words withdrawing the Collins subs by the mid thirties, while not ideal, might not be a total disaster either.
I think you will find there is some concern if they will be useful/survivable/reliable without LOTE.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Realistically, by the time a Burke could be acquired, even through FMS, the first Hunter would be in the water.

Also, were would the crew come from? The Hunters will take crews from retiring ANZACs, but a Burke has almost twice the crew size, this means two ANZACs gone for each Burke. Recruiting, training and growing personnel numbers takes time, starting now, we may have the extra personnel available to crew additional ships in the early 2030s.

The time for Burke's was in the 90s and early 2000s as replacements for the Perth class DDGs. Once the fleet stated shrinking and the RAN had become a frigate and patrol boat navy, making the integration of such a capability far more difficult and time consuming.

To get DDGs within the next fifteen years, we need to start growing the personnel now.
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
I think you will find there is some concern if they will be useful/survivable/reliable without LOTE.
I would argue that even with LOTE a 30 to 40 year old sub might not be tenable. If LOTE does go ahead you won’t see the entire Collins class completed until 2038 and that is only if things go according to schedule. If there are delays you could see fewer LOTE boats available and a portion of the remaining fleet laid up waiting to go through the process.

Actually another thought occurred to me. How tenable is operating two types of submarine going to be for a small navy like Australia’s anyway?

I am not talking classes but actual types. The US, UK and France have long abandoned the idea of operating nuclear and conventional submarines together. Think of all the maintenance issues or training two seperate crews. What new sailor joining the navy is going to be interested in learning how to work on diesel submarine engines?
 
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Morgo

Well-Known Member
No need to argue about if they're at the back or the front, or why haven't we got 196 or 98 or any other variant of a number. The design is still technically fluid & until the CoA / Australian Govt / RAN decide to break cover & tell the world (and the enemy), what will be fitted, it's better to sit on yer hands than start a "he said" / "she said" rant around something that is fully outwith the control of anyone poster / member / admin on this website / forum.
Yeah but the speculation is the fun part!

Of course no one (except perhaps a few DefPros) on here knows what the outcome is. But if we’re not going to talk options what’s the point of the thread? Why don't we close it and just have a link to the minister’s press releases?

Personally I remain hopeful that when the final Hunter spec is announced that it’ll be packing some serious heat VLS wise (48-60?) and will be arriving at pace (1 every 18 months? Is faster possible?) from Osborne in the late 2020s, to be followed by a 3x batch DDG variants, to be followed by a capable 4-6000t GP frigate, to be followed by SSN in the late 30s.

I am yet to see any evidence that rules this out, and frankly the more I see (the Surface force review leaks, the BAE statement) the more I think this is the most likely path - which would be fine by me.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Realistically, by the time a Burke could be acquired, even through FMS, the first Hunter would be in the water.

Also, were would the crew come from? The Hunters will take crews from retiring ANZACs, but a Burke has almost twice the crew size, this means two ANZACs gone for each Burke. Recruiting, training and growing personnel numbers takes time, starting now, we may have the extra personnel available to crew additional ships in the early 2030s.

The time for Burke's was in the 90s and early 2000s as replacements for the Perth class DDGs. Once the fleet stated shrinking and the RAN had become a frigate and patrol boat navy, making the integration of such a capability far more difficult and time consuming.

To get DDGs within the next fifteen years, we need to start growing the personnel now.
This is something of an obligatory reminder, but the USN crewing & DC philosophy is somewhat different than that of the RAN and AFAIK most other navies. It also means that the USN will typically run a vessel with a larger crew, even when operating essentially the same class and design for a vessel. Take the USS Robert G. Bradley (FFG-49) which is an Oliver Hazard Perry-class frigate that when in active service, operated with a complement of 15 officers, 190 crew, and aviation support of 6 officers and 15 enlisted. Now compare that to the crew of the Adelaide-class frigate HMAS Sydney (FFG-03) which had a ship's complement of 184 including 15 officers and not including the aircrew. Given that the two classes are essentially the same except for some Australian-specific modifications, that shows that the USN would run the same vessel with ~21 more crew than the RAN, or to put it another way, the USN would plan on ~11% more crew than other navies.

Depending on which specific flight as well as individual vessel one is talking about with respect to crewing USN Arleigh Burke-class DDG's then I have seen numbers ranging from ~303 to upwards of 380 crew per vessel. When looking at similar classes of DDG in service with Japan and S. Korea, they seem to be listed with crews of ~300 as well. The RAN might be able to operate an Australian version with a crew of ~270, give or take. Still more crew than the current frigates or destroyers, but not quite as many as might be thought.

If one applies that same sort of crewing philosophy to USN SSN's, then a crew of 135 for a Virginia-class SSN might become 120. Still significant but not as much as before.

Incidentally, not only would increasing the number of RAN personnel need to start now, but so to would planning for new/replacement DDG's need to start now, if Australia is to have a chance at getting them in 15 years time. I do however disagree on the apparent thinking behind getting three more/replacement destroyers. IMO it would be much better to have a larger number of destroyers built, otherwise the RAN could end up back in a situation that is going to arise as the Hobart-class destroyers go through their respective upgrades. With the RAN currently only having three destroyers, soon to begin upgrades, there will be periods of time when due to the upgrades plus training cycles and deployments, the RAN will find itself without any destroyer available to send out. If more destroyers had been built, there would be a greater chance that one would be available at any given time. If a decent number (5+) destroyers had been built, then it would likely have been possible to manage the upgrades plus training cycles so that a DDG would be available for taskings if/when needed. With that in mind, I would rather the Hobart-class DDG replacement end up getting brought forward if possible, to start building immediately after the Hunter-class frigates are finished and that at a minimum four replacement vessels be built, and preferably more like 6-8.
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
This is something of an obligatory reminder, but the USN crewing & DC philosophy is somewhat different than that of the RAN and AFAIK most other navies. It also means that the USN will typically run a vessel with a larger crew, even when operating essentially the same class and design for a vessel. Take the USS Robert G. Bradley (FFG-49) which is an Oliver Hazard Perry-class frigate that when in active service, operated with a complement of 15 officers, 190 crew, and aviation support of 6 officers and 15 enlisted. Now compare that to the crew of the Adelaide-class frigate HMAS Sydney (FFG-03) which had a ship's complement of 184 including 15 officers and not including the aircrew. Given that the two classes are essentially the same except for some Australian-specific modifications, that shows that the USN would run the same vessel with ~21 more crew than the RAN, or to put it another way, the USN would plan on ~11% more crew than other navies.
One thing there, the RAN would almost never have deployed 2 S-70B Seahawks on the Adelaide's despite being able to fit 2 in the Hangar as they never had more than 16 on strength. Maybe in the last couple of years when we had 24 MH-60R, 6+15 sounds like might be a 2 Helicopter flight.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
One thing there, the RAN would almost never have deployed 2 S-70B Seahawks on the Adelaide's despite being able to fit 2 in the Hangar as they never had more than 16 on strength. Maybe in the last couple of years when we had 24 MH-60R, 6+15 sounds like might be a 2 Helicopter flight.
The USN crew would have been a total of ~205, not including aviation support, whilst a RAN crew would have been 184, again not including aviation support. A USN crew including the aviation component would have been 226, and AFAIK that was indeed for a detachment of two embarked helicopters.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The USN crew would have been a total of ~205, not including aviation support, whilst a RAN crew would have been 184, again not including aviation support. A USN crew including the aviation component would have been 226, and AFAIK that was indeed for a detachment of two embarked helicopters.
I can't place my hands on it, but I believe RAN FFGs often deployed with over 200 and sometimes as many as 220 crew, even using one hangar for accommodation. This was I believe the usual case for Gulf deployments.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
I can't place my hands on it, but I believe RAN FFGs often deployed with over 200 and sometimes as many as 220 crew, even using one hangar for accommodation. This was I believe the usual case for Gulf deployments.
When I checked the RAN historical pages for the different frigates, they are listed with a range of crew, the lowest one I came across was 184. My memory could be failing, but I seem to remember that on some of the RAN deployments to the Persian Gulf, the RAN was put in charge of a coalition naval TF. If that memory is correct, then there might have been additional personnel embarked as a command staff.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Highly likely, I also recall Clearance Divers being used as boarding parties. Later on this may have become a crew task as I know Stoker's who fast roped in as part of the party to secure the machinery spaces.

There are members here more qualified to say thank I am.
 

DDG38

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I can't place my hands on it, but I believe RAN FFGs often deployed with over 200 and sometimes as many as 220 crew, even using one hangar for accommodation. This was I believe the usual case for Gulf deployments.
Correct. When I did a MEAO trip on HMAS Melbourne the complement was just a tad over 220 and one side of the hanger had a containerised accommodation unit for extra ship's company (PHOTS, CDs etc).
 

DDG38

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Also a note about manning ships, not sure if anyone caught the discussion about ADF recruitment in last week's Senate Estimates, but recruitment is actually going backwards at the moment, which pretty much means all this rampant speculation about getting extra hulls in this thread is complete fantasy fleet talk and not remotely grounded in reality. Not that it stops the endless speculation but it's why I no longer reply to people jumping on the "coulda woulda shoulda" train.
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
Also a note about manning ships, not sure if anyone caught the discussion about ADF recruitment in last week's Senate Estimates, but recruitment is actually going backwards at the moment, which pretty much means all this rampant speculation about getting extra hulls in this thread is complete fantasy fleet talk and not remotely grounded in reality. Not that it stops the endless speculation but it's why I no longer reply to people jumping on the "coulda woulda shoulda" train.
Why would anyone join or want to stay in? There cannot be any trust left in the procurement process, we can't even acquire 1800t OPVs without it turning it into a CF. This is another issue with so many vessels going into major refits, sea time is going to be cut. New Frigates and Submarines are 8-10 years away. All Governments want to do is hold reviews that nothing ever comes from, morale has got to be c**p in the RAN right now.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Also a note about manning ships, not sure if anyone caught the discussion about ADF recruitment in last week's Senate Estimates, but recruitment is actually going backwards at the moment, which pretty much means all this rampant speculation about getting extra hulls in this thread is complete fantasy fleet talk and not remotely grounded in reality. Not that it stops the endless speculation but it's why I no longer reply to people jumping on the "coulda woulda shoulda" train.
My personal take is that 'extra' hulls is possible, just not now or in the near future/next few years. With some effort and decent planning, extra hulls and the personnel to crew them might start to be possible in a decade or so.

This might be extra efforts at recruitment, upskilling and retention, new vessel design elements to reduce crew requirements, or some combination of these and other efforts.

The crewing issue also is another nail in the coffin of the corvette idea, as the crew of a corvette is going to be larger than either the planned Arafura-class OPV's or the current Armidale-class and Cape-class patrol boats. In some cases, the crew of a corvette could be over 100, particularly if the vessel has a comprehensive weapons, sensor and CMS fitout.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Ironically having a modernish destroyer replacing the Perth's as they retired would have helped recruiting and retention.

Big crews transitioning to ships that need big crews, but with GTs and other modern systems would have provided a training ground for the next generation of sailors.

Departments would have been larger and headed up by more senior, more experienced personnel.
 
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