Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates 2.0

[Bluey 006]

How do you know how many VLS the Hunters are planned to have? As far as I know, this isn’t publicly available information.

Any number of reliable public sources have suggested 32 cells for the Hunter, here Australian Defence Magazine,

Also again, Australian Defence Magazine, quoting the commodore of the RAN.

“We will see a big step change from the Anzac ships it is replacing – we will have 32 VLS cells instead of eight, and we will have a massive increase in combat system capability from the Saab 9LV CMS to the Aegis Combat System, augmented by the Saab Australian Interface – and this combat system, together with Mk.41 VLS, allows for derivatives of future USN weapons as well,” CDRE Mann said. Source

Australian Strategic Policy Institute - here, also several other articles. I won't quote them all.

Various newspapers which are too numerous to quote.

I do hope the designer can squeeze a few more cells out of it in the final configuration. Say 36 or 40 cells or even if we are lucky 48. If they do, then combined with its other multi-role capabilities, it will be a very formidable multi-role frigate.

Constellation-class frigate (32cells)
Type 054A frigate (32 Cells)
Asahi-class destroyer (32 Cells)
Shivalik class frigate (32 Cells)
F126 frigate (16 × cells) - 10,000 Tonnes
T26 - (24 x Cells + 24 Cells CAMM)
F110-class frigate (16 cells)

Where we have really been let down in terms of cell count is our AWD with only 48, which has been an ongoing discussion point on this forum for over a decade.

 

[diggumsbang]

Does anyone have an update on the Phalanx Block 1B2 CIWS for the Canberra Class LHD’s?

The defence page hasn’t been updated since July 2019 but suggests that FOC will be reached by June 2024. See https://www.defence.gov.au/project/phalanx-close-weapons-system-block-upgrade

I know that ‘up to three’ will be installed on each LHD but that was likely dictated by radar cross section analysis. The Turkish Navy sister design Anadolu has the large addition fore of the island to house theirs.

Is there a material delay on this project, either in receiving the systems or on where the RAN may place them on the Canberra class?

cheers

 

[Morgo]

Any number of reliable public sources have suggested 32 cells for the Hunter, here Australian Defence Magazine,

Also again, Australian Defence Magazine, quoting the commodore of the RAN.

“We will see a big step change from the Anzac ships it is replacing – we will have 32 VLS cells instead of eight, and we will have a massive increase in combat system capability from the Saab 9LV CMS to the Aegis Combat System, augmented by the Saab Australian Interface – and this combat system, together with Mk.41 VLS, allows for derivatives of future USN weapons as well,” CDRE Mann said. Source

Australian Strategic Policy Institute - here, also several other articles. I won't quote them all.

Various newspapers which are too numerous to quote.

I do hope the designer can squeeze a few more cells out of it in the final configuration. Say 36 or 40 cells or even if we are lucky 48. If they do, then combined with its other multi-role capabilities, it will be a very formidable multi-role frigate.

Constellation-class frigate (32cells)
Type 054A frigate (32 Cells)
Asahi-class destroyer (32 Cells)
Shivalik class frigate (32 Cells)
F126 frigate (16 × cells) - 10,000 Tonnes
T26 - (24 x Cells + 24 Cells CAMM)
F110-class frigate (16 cells)

Where we have really been let down in terms of cell count is our AWD with only 48, which has been an ongoing discussion point on this forum for over a decade.

I’m not saying that it won’t be 32 cells - and I’m sure there are some on here who do know and are staying quiet - but my point is that the ADM sources you’ve quoted are from 2019, and since then there has been a substantial increase in the Hunter’s displacement and a growing realisation of Australia’s VLS drought.

As far as I can see a good chunk of the increase is to fix stability issues as it was too top heavy, but given there have been very limited disclosures from the Government on the final design (the RAN website just says it has VLS, not how many) and the sheer size of the thing it wouldn’t surprise me if, as you say, another 8 or 16 have been squeezed in.

But I don’t know. And I don’t think anyone working off public information knows either.

If you’ve got some recent quotes from serving RAN personnel or senior members of the Government I would be very interested to hear it.

 

[Stampede]

Does anyone have an update on the Phalanx Block 1B2 CIWS for the Canberra Class LHD’s?

The defence page hasn’t been updated since July 2019 but suggests that FOC will be reached by June 2024. See https://www.defence.gov.au/project/phalanx-close-weapons-system-block-upgrade

I know that ‘up to three’ will be installed on each LHD but that was likely dictated by radar cross section analysis. The Turkish Navy sister design Anadolu has the large addition fore of the island to house theirs.

Is there a material delay on this project, either in receiving the systems or on where the RAN may place them on the Canberra class?

cheers

I'm not how many Phalanx units in current inventory.
I recall some time ago twelve was mentioned and some talk of acquiring a couple more.
Either way with one each on each of the Hobart's, Supply Class And Choules for a total of six installed , there are certainly some spare for installation.
While the long term utility of such a system is questionable in my opinion, it does seems a waste not to utilise what we have.

A couple of systems on the LHD's would be prudent.
One would think it a rather straight forward endeavour so are somewhat puzzled at the glacial pace of implementation.

DSR time of threat and all

Cheers S

 

[StingrayOZ]

I other news BAE has decommissioned the 76mm gun at West Head Gunnery Range.
All future training will be through virtual reality simulation and on board training.

This brings an end to 64 years of RAN shore based medium calibre live firing. .

 

[Stampede]

I other news BAE has decommissioned the 76mm gun at West Head Gunnery Range.
All future training will be through virtual reality simulation and on board training.

This brings an end to 64 years of RAN shore based medium calibre live firing. .
View attachment 50882

Interesting news.

Looks like the 76mm is off the shopping list for The Arafura Class and any Tier two vessel.

No doubt the residents of the neighbouring township of Finders will welcome the news.

Cheers S

 

[Redlands18]

Interesting news.

Looks like the 76mm is off the shopping list for The Arafura Class and any Tier two vessel.

No doubt the residents of the neighbouring township of Finders will welcome the news.

Cheers S

The Netherlands Select Leonardo's New Sovraponte Guns for ASWF - Naval News
LDO_Comm_Datasheet_4C_R2 (leonardo.com)
The modern Leonardo 76/62mm is a very different beast to the original Oto-Melara Gun. You can even get the Sovraponte model which is non deck penetrating and 30-40% lighter than the Super Rapido model, carrying 76 ready to fire rounds. Not quite sure what the Gun at West Head which is a 60yo design would bring to trg for a modern 76/62. There is a lot to like about the Sovraponte model for OPVs, 76 rounds will be enough 95% of the time, decent hitting power against smaller boats, some defence capability against missiles, drones, small aircraft. You could also go with the Super Rapido with a separate magazine for larger vessels.

 

[StingrayOZ]

No doubt the residents of the neighbouring township of Finders will welcome the news.

Well its not just the end of the 76mm, but all guns that go bang. Developers will be very happy.

I wonder, with the RAN consider adopting a completely automated 5". Like the Oto 127mm, how often does the RAN fire more than 56, 5" rounds?

The super Rapido is not overtly similar to the previous compact although some parts are shared. 76mm IMO make more sense for the RAN, as our combatants will never be tiny, and anything to be a threat is likely bigger, tougher and higher or further away than 40/57mm guns would like. Although the 57mm is quite a capable gun these days.

 

[Bob53]

Interesting news.

Looks like the 76mm is off the shopping list for The Arafura Class and any Tier two vessel.

No doubt the residents of the neighbouring township of Finders will welcome the news.

Cheers S

the folks of Flinders generally supported the RAN. The odd biddy complain but when firing drills were on most people head down to the golf course to watch. Live firing doesn’t take place that often. I surfed this area a lot and at one stage about 40 years ago me and my mates got chased out of the water by RAN in a rubber ducky prior to firing. For those interested breaks are Meanos directly in front of the base and Gunnery about 200 to the west, Big lefts about a Km further west (and a 800m paddle out) and Cyril’s another km west. Its all black basalt rock and quite spooky with Shark McDonald’s at Seal rocks just across the way on the other side of the Westernport Bay entrance. I stick to the golf course these days.

 

[Stampede]

The Netherlands Select Leonardo's New Sovraponte Guns for ASWF - Naval News
LDO_Comm_Datasheet_4C_R2 (leonardo.com)
The modern Leonardo 76/62mm is a very different beast to the original Oto-Melara Gun. You can even get the Sovraponte model which is non deck penetrating and 30-40% lighter than the Super Rapido model, carrying 76 ready to fire rounds. Not quite sure what the Gun at West Head which is a 60yo design would bring to trg for a modern 76/62. There is a lot to like about the Sovraponte model for OPVs, 76 rounds will be enough 95% of the time, decent hitting power against smaller boats, some defence capability against missiles, drones, small aircraft. You could also go with the Super Rapido with a separate magazine for larger vessels.

The Sovraponte 76mm is a smart development from Leonardo.
Its lighter weight and non deck penetrating attribute are a big plus.
All this while sill retaining the ability to carry a meaningful number and range of ammunition types
It will no doubt be a popular choice in the market place.

For the RAN it looks like 5 Inch, 20 , 25 , 30mm.
No doubt this will evolve and I'd guess the 25mm will give way for the preference of the 30mm on the Bushmasters.

The 20mm will last the life of the Phalanx CIWS and the DS30B will retire with the Huon Class.

So eventually 5 Inch and 30mm Bushmasters.

Does our future fleet have room for another calibre?
Time will tell


Cheers S

 

[Stampede]

the folks of Flinders generally supported the RAN. The odd biddy complain but when firing drills were on most people head down to the golf course to watch. Live firing doesn’t take place that often. I surfed this area a lot and at one stage about 40 years ago me and my mates got chased out of the water by RAN in a rubber ducky prior to firing. For those interested breaks are Meanos directly in front of the base and Gunnery about 200 to the west, Big lefts about a Km further west (and a 800m paddle out) and Cyril’s another km west. Its all black basalt rock and quite spooky with Shark McDonald’s at Seal rocks just across the way on the other side of the Westernport Bay entrance. I stick to the golf course these days.

Not a surfer, but have had a swim there many a time over the decades.
A nice part of the world.

Cheers S

 

[spoz]

Well, we installed a representational DDG/LHD Typhoon there in the middle of the last decade, so I think there is likely to be some live firing continuing. Both those classes are armed with 25mm Bushmasters, and there are no current plans to replace those on the DDGs. The future of those on LHDs are tied up with the Phalanx fit. The fit for MWVs is still up in the air pending the final decision on the main armament of the OPVs; so the long term future of light weapons in the RAN is by no means determined.

 

[ADMk2]

I other news BAE has decommissioned the 76mm gun at West Head Gunnery Range.
All future training will be through virtual reality simulation and on board training.

This brings an end to 64 years of RAN shore based medium calibre live firing. .

Interesting to see if the RAN concurs with the comments in that article as to what "medium calibre" means?

My understanding is it is only the 76mm gun capability that is being retired, the 25mm Typhoon gun system will continue to provide live firing training at West Head?

 

[ADMk2]

No problem, the S2G Trackers only had a 3mtr clearance between their starboard wing and the island superstructure on CV21 - HMAS Melbourne if they had a bolter or even if they caught 4 (or 1 - can’t remember how they were numbered) wire, the last one!

I agree. I wouldn't imagine it is an insurmountable problem. That UAV starboard wingspan distance on the side of the flight deck closest to the superstructure is only 8m.... Obviously safety margins etc are required and there would literally be TONS of flight testing and trials required before you could even think about operating a fixed wing UAV from a Canberra Class LHD, but on pure dimensions alone a CH-47F Chinook rotor diameter for example is 18.29m, while Osprey's have a 13.97m wingspan but a 25.7m overall aircraft width (including rotors) and they seemingly have few constraints operating from the Canberra Class...

 

[StingrayOZ]

My understanding is it is only the 76mm gun capability that is being retired, the 25mm Typhoon gun system will continue to provide live firing training at West Head?

One has to wonder how and if that will continue, wasn't there a bit of a move to get rid of the 25mm?

It seems that they are moving to VR simulation and on ship experience, presumably that would happen to the 25mm as well. If it gets replaced on the patrol boats, then I would imagine it becomes a bit of an orphan.

 

[Pusser01]

One has to wonder how and if that will continue, wasn't there a bit of a move to get rid of the 25mm?

It seems that they are moving to VR simulation and on ship experience, presumably that would happen to the 25mm as well. If it gets replaced on the patrol boats, then I would imagine it becomes a bit of an orphan.

From memory there is also a mini-Typhoon 50cal & a few manual 50cal's setup at West Head aswell.

 

[ADMk2]

One has to wonder how and if that will continue, wasn't there a bit of a move to get rid of the 25mm?

It seems that they are moving to VR simulation and on ship experience, presumably that would happen to the 25mm as well. If it gets replaced on the patrol boats, then I would imagine it becomes a bit of an orphan.

The Mk.30C Typhoon 30mm x 173mm mount has been chosen as the secondary weapon for the Hunters. I’d agree it would be a good choice to upgrade all RAN secondary guns systems / “medium calibre” weapon systems to this for the commonality benefits and improved lethality this would bring, particularly in the Counter-UAS / USV space with the programmable air-bursting munition capability the 30mm gun offers.

But that would mean replacing the 4x 25mm Typhoons on each of the LHD’s, the 2x 25mm Typhoons on each of the Hobart Class and the 2x 25mm Typhoons on each of the Supply Class, plus the 25mm Typhoons that are going onto the Arafuras from the patrol boats for goodness knows how long.

An additional 25+ operational systems, plus (likely) a significant integration program, needing to integrate this weapon onto 4x different classes of ship and at least 3 different combat systems (not sure what CS the Supply Class uses, so it could be 4x combat systems).

With the ammunition for the 25mm systems already manufactured locally, RAN may not feel that the ‘juice’ is worth the squeeze so to speak, especially as it is already consolidating it’s various ammunition and sustainment requirements with 76mm finally retiring, DSI 30 retiring soon on the Huons and 40mm cancelled on the Arafuras.

 

[aussienscale]

I other news BAE has decommissioned the 76mm gun at West Head Gunnery Range.
All future training will be through virtual reality simulation and on board training.

This brings an end to 64 years of RAN shore based medium calibre live firing. .
View attachment 50882

Geez, I remember when it was the new kid on the block when I used to do duty out there from Cerberus. They still had the twin 4.5" !

 

[Stampede]

The Mk.30C Typhoon 30mm x 173mm mount has been chosen as the secondary weapon for the Hunters. I’d agree it would be a good choice to upgrade all RAN secondary guns systems / “medium calibre” weapon systems to this for the commonality benefits and improved lethality this would bring, particularly in the Counter-UAS / USV space with the programmable air-bursting munition capability the 30mm gun offers.

But that would mean replacing the 4x 25mm Typhoons on each of the LHD’s, the 2x 25mm Typhoons on each of the Hobart Class and the 2x 25mm Typhoons on each of the Supply Class, plus the 25mm Typhoons that are going onto the Arafuras from the patrol boats for goodness knows how long.

An additional 25+ operational systems, plus (likely) a significant integration program, needing to integrate this weapon onto 4x different classes of ship and at least 3 different combat systems (not sure what CS the Supply Class uses, so it could be 4x combat systems).

With the ammunition for the 25mm systems already manufactured locally, RAN may not feel that the ‘juice’ is worth the squeeze so to speak, especially as it is already consolidating it’s various ammunition and sustainment requirements with 76mm finally retiring, DSI 30 retiring soon on the Huons and 40mm cancelled on the Arafuras.

Consolidating on the 30mm calibre across the fleet has a lot of merit
However as you point out there is going to be a cost in making this all work.
Allegedly there is alot of commonality with the typhoon mounts.
If true it may make the project cost effective.

The 30mm does round appear to be the future

Cheers S

 

[spoz]

And of the past; 30mm was fitted on the Huons. Having fitted 7 new major units with a total of 18 25mm systems in the last 10 years, and even ignoring the PB/maybe OPV fits the Hunter starts to look a bit like the orphan. Standardisation on one light weapon is still some considerable distance away; if that is even seen as desirable.