John Fedup
The Bunker Group
At this point a one state solution is zero probability, oil and water don’t mix just like Israeli and Palestinians after recent events (probably long before).
Hamas-Israeli War 2023
- Thread starter koxinga
- Start date
Big_Zucchini
Well-Known Member
I won't respond to the rest of your comment because a one state solution is so detached from the reality as it is on the ground, that I have nothing to say on the subject except that I don't ever see it how its minimal foundation is ever formed.
Regarding their homes - it is very much possible that following recent events, most people in Gaza won't even have anything to call a home. What good is attachment to a piece of land if you can't even live in it?
This is something many Palestinians also understand, having fled in huge numbers from Syria to Lebanon during the civil war.
There are currently multiple potential territories large enough and unclaimed due to civil wars and lack of sovereignty or power to hold said territories.
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Big_Zucchini
Well-Known Member
I have seen, during my service, an aerial map of Gaza including pinpoint location of every piece of Hamas infrastructure, of their movement routes, weapon storage facilities, tunnel intersections and entry points, command centers, firing positions, communication infrastructure, you name it. People don't have a perspective of just how much of Gaza's buildings are mixed with Hamas assets. If what the IDF says is true - that they will destroy Hamas and all its infrastructure, then that means that much of Gaza will be in ruins.
That is why I believe a new solution must be reached for the Palestinian people to progress.
That is why I believe a new solution must be reached for the Palestinian people to progress.
The question becomes, what do you propose to do with those that on principle both refuse to leave and refuse to integrate themselves into Israel? This has been the question for some time.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
If what you wrote is the majority thinking of Israeli, then Israel should won't mind release full control of West Bank. However that's not happen. The reality there is no two state at this moment, as PA basically cannot do International traffic without Israel permissions. Palestianian embassy can not give Visa to foreign tourists (yes they are tourists that will come to Palestine especially East Jerusalem and other area on West Bank), without Isreal approval (as example).
Will Israel going to allow Palestinian build airport for direct flight internationally under Palestinian control? Will all border and custom control between West Bank and Jordan be released to PA? That's one example why the can't build their own economies. Israel in the way make Palestinian depend on Isreal economies and infact become integral part within.
That's why I said the choices has to be either complete seperations as two "sovereign" nations or complete integrations as one nation. Can't half way, as this is what happens now. Isreal doesn't want to release control, Palestinian become dependent to Isreal, however Isreal can't or won't let Palestinian integrate on Isreal system. Frustration and hate brewing in Palestinian, which in turn create reciprocal feeling from Isreal. Vicious circles that will continue happen, until complete solutions of that two choices being taken.
There will be no Arab Nations that will give part of their land to placate Isreal and Palestinian need. Both has to either divide the land completely or integrate and share the land.
Nevermind all that silliness. Will Israel allow Palestine to host a Chinese airbase? You're not sovereign unless you're sovereign.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
That silliness is part to build independent economy for a sovereign nation. But yes, sovereign Palestine should be allow to make international relationships independently to everyone they want.
Either that, or integrate them as one nations. Nothing is easy choices. If they can't be integrate, thrn the choices should only be complete seperations as two independent sovereign nations.
Add:
One of the reason Indonesia invade East Timor was because the worries Independents East Timor under leftist Fretilin will invite and host USSR base. There's scenario that USSR forces in their Danang Base in Vietnam going to use East Timor as part of their network.
That's also why US give green light for Indonesia to Invade and Australia give diplomatic support. Something that's make sense under cold war pretext. There's also thinking that East Timor cannot survive economically if not integrated to Indonesia. The integration fail, thus left to other choice, seperate as two sovereign nation.
Despite all their problem, so far they still manage to be independent sovereign nation. Why can't Palestinian be allowed to do that ?
Either that, or integrate them as one nations. Nothing is easy choices. If they can't be integrate, thrn the choices should only be complete seperations as two independent sovereign nations.
Add:
One of the reason Indonesia invade East Timor was because the worries Independents East Timor under leftist Fretilin will invite and host USSR base. There's scenario that USSR forces in their Danang Base in Vietnam going to use East Timor as part of their network.
That's also why US give green light for Indonesia to Invade and Australia give diplomatic support. Something that's make sense under cold war pretext. There's also thinking that East Timor cannot survive economically if not integrated to Indonesia. The integration fail, thus left to other choice, seperate as two sovereign nation.
Despite all their problem, so far they still manage to be independent sovereign nation. Why can't Palestinian be allowed to do that ?
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Musashi_kenshin
Well-Known Member
I'm happy to be corrected, but at any point did the East Timor government claim to have historic rights over all of Indonesia and in the past supported a multilateral invasion of Indonesia?
The problem with the Palestinian movement is that it has historically played a zero-sum game with Israel. There have only been short periods of tolerance towards a two-state solution. Even now many Palestinian activists demand that Israel agree to be absorbed into a new Palestinian state.
Hamas in particular has at most only promised a "ceasefire" over a number of decades if, and only if, Israel gave back all of the West Bank. Which Israel can't easily agree to because it would become strategically vulnerable and ripe for the plucking in the future.
The recent events have shown that Hamas can't be trusted. They launched these attacks to derail the planned Israel-Saudi peace plan, not because it was some sort of pre-emptive attack to stop Israeli military operations. In that respect, I can see why Israel sees Hamas as essentially the same as Daesh.
Only when the Palestinian movement becomes entirely peaceful is a two-state solution viable. Even if before Israel should have tried harder to remove illegal settlements, etc, now essentially there is no room for negotiation. Palestinians can cry that this is not fair because they lose leverage, but the truth is that they've not won anything from their attacks. The recent atrocities make it even harder for them to get their way through anything other than peaceful dialogue and a commitment to demilitarise.
The irony is that Palestinians regularly complain that Israel wants to murder them all, but if that was true they would be long dead. Whereas I suspect that if they had the same military advantage that Israel currently has, they would have conquered all Jewish territory by now and killed anyone who resisted.
Big_Zucchini
Well-Known Member
Same as was done to Israelis during the 2005 disengagement. Offer everyone money and full housing subsidies to leave. If they don't leave, remove them and don't pay them (but still subsidize housing). If it's the best we can offer our citizens, it's the best we can offer anyone anyway.
Big_Zucchini
Well-Known Member
Then you misunderstood me. I say Israelis have no inherent need in acquiring new territories. Not that they are willing to relinquish territories whose possession is vital for maintaining security. Golan, for example. West Bank is another example. New Gaza if it's withdrawn from.
How are you deciding who stays and who goes? All current inhabitants of Gaza? I.e. if a Jew happens to live there (somehow) they would also have to leave? Or they could stay? From where I sit I don't see how this isn't ethnic cleansing. It's not the genocide variety, but it still falls squarely within that, being a forced deportation for the purpose of enforcing ethnic homogeneity. It runs directly counter to the principles of self-determination and point to the massive contradiction within the current nation-state system. I don't want to dive to deep down this rabbit hole, but I think this decision (if made) won't sit well with anyone internationally, and Israel will run into serious issues executing it.
1. Biden tells heads of the U.S. Jewish organizations: “It matters that Americans see what is happening. I have doing this a long time – I never thought that I would see and have confirmed pictures of terrorists beheading children.”
2. When you watch multiple Biden admin officials losing their composure on TV, when talking about the acts of TERROR by Hamas — they must have seen the horrific pictures President Biden spoke of.
3. Don’t understand why anyone will try to deny this fact. I certainly learnt more about these people in Malaysia and Indonesia, who wanted to play it down & thought this was the hill to die on, rather than the fact of children being massacred.
2. When you watch multiple Biden admin officials losing their composure on TV, when talking about the acts of TERROR by Hamas — they must have seen the horrific pictures President Biden spoke of.
3. Don’t understand why anyone will try to deny this fact. I certainly learnt more about these people in Malaysia and Indonesia, who wanted to play it down & thought this was the hill to die on, rather than the fact of children being massacred.
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Musashi_kenshin
Well-Known Member
Sadly some people do not view all life as being equal and only empathise with those from their own ethnic/religious groups. Worse, there are those that think even children are viable targets if they come from the "wrong" group.
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There is talk of Hamas doing this to derail the Saudi deal, talk of Iran as well, but the thing that stands out to me is there is now nothing about Ukraine.
Call me a conspiracy nut but Putin has been putting a lot of effort into the middle east and Africa in recent times.
Setting the whole world on fire, or at least supplying fuel and matches helps him.
Call me a conspiracy nut but Putin has been putting a lot of effort into the middle east and Africa in recent times.
Setting the whole world on fire, or at least supplying fuel and matches helps him.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
There's also arguments that "many" Israel and pro zionist activist and backers talk to kick out all Palestinian and absorb all Gaza and West Bank for integral part of Jewish only state. This is talk much longer before the latest Hamas attack. So enough both sides activist opinions have dreams to complete eradication of the others side.
The talk of new Palestinian state also differ from those who wants all Jews especially those who came from Europe to leave, to much moderate ones that basically talk about one nation for all present population (means none leave) which be call back as Palestine rather then Israel.
If the Palestinian that actually won the war and become dominant force, and then push Jewish inhabitants to smaller corner (say put Tel Aviv as strip instead Gaza), for decades, blockade and control their movement, arrest and do target attack in name of security control. Will not that turn the Israel Jews into militants and doing terorism act? Remember Jewish activist also done bombing and attack toward British forces, during Israel state conceptions. Some Palestinian also put evidence that the Jewish activist also attack their communities during Israel conceptions. Something that pro Israel denies.
So both sides have shown enough evidence can do damages to each other. Telling one of them are morally superior, sorry to say not shown the reality in the ground. I see media in West or from those who are historically pro Israel, question why after the attack from Hamas, many still pro Hamas. In reality there's also different between Pro Palestinian and Pro Hamas.
Personally if the Arab win the war in late 40's, or in 50's and 60's, I tend to see there're also no Palestinian state. The land of Palestine will be absorb and divide mostly by Egypt and Jordanian. So the Jewish population if Arab won the war most probable found themselves either become Jordanian or Egyptian.
Many that call solidarity for Palestinian and continue support Palestinian cause, is not supporting Hamas and even some of them actually condemn radicals like Hamas. However they also see condemning Hamas this time around will be use by those who support Israel to turn back Palestinian causes. Just like Palestinian and Israeli in the ground, those who support them Internationally also already distrust and labeling each other.
The pro Israel talk about children that Hamas kill will find counter arguments, what about Palestinian children that Israel kill over the years. Is religion matter on the support ? True most muslim support Palestinian more. However I also see some Christians supporting Palestinian as there are also Christian among Palestinian. Political ideology even in West also seems leaning to each other side. All shows not only in the ground, but each sides supporters Internationally also already divide and suspicious to others sources.
If we talk conspiracy, then there's also conspiracy talk on Hamas attack is part of Israel right wing agenda. Arguments that base on talk by some Israeli ex intelligence that talk Israel is responsible on creating Hamas as counter weight to PLO Fatah. Conspiracy talk that say it is impossible the attack this big from Hamas is done without Israel intelligence knowledge. The talk that right wing Isreal factions let Hamas rearm and even leak Isreal security protocols and systems in the Gaza border. This will be use by Israel to have excuse to wipe out Palestinian in Gaza, either through genocides or complete ethnic cleansing.
So there're multiple conspiracies theories circulate now. From Russian diversion, to Israel right wing false flag agenda. Personally I tend to see this as part of Israel overconfidence added by Hamas take chances due to Israel political chaos.
Add:
India basically has more pro Isreal stance in this matter. However having Indian media talk on debunking video:
Fact Check: This video doesn't show Hamas militants burning kidnapped Israeli woman
This video is from an eight-year-old incident in Guatemala. It has nothing to do with Noa Argamani, the 25-year-old woman who was kidnapped.
Shown propaganda from both sides is increasing. This just make both sides (inclusing the international opinions support) continue divide. Infact increasingly polarized.
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SinisterMinister
Member
Unsurprisingly, it turns out that ole Uncle Joe was just riffing. Or maybe he misspoke. Regardless, he never saw pictures of beheaded babies.
Biden did not actually see ‘confirmed pictures of terrorists beheading children’ as he claimed, WH clarifies
President Biden said that he has seen “confirmed pictures of terrorists beheading children” in southern Israel following reports that up to 40 babies were butchered over the weekend.
nypost.com
Not that it really matters whether or not it happened, the crimes documented are horrible enough on their own. But the speed at which unconfirmed, alarmist reports spread as fact is a bit alarming.
1. I don’t get the comms strategy of the White House. What Hamas as done, burning civilians to death, beheading women, killing children is bad enough to treat them as ISIS.
2. There is no need to embellish if it is not true — there is no need to give the human rights & lawfare crowd metaphorical ammo to accuse the IDF. These rights activists are pre-judging the military actions of the state of Israel, engaged in the defence of a country. Prior assumptions, in Israel, that Hamas somehow moderated its genocidal ideology and become pragmatic (hence the need for offices in Doha), are shattered by Saturday’s slaughter.
3. I believe more than 3k crossed the border, which means a brigade sized force attack by Hamas, going on a full ISIS type of rampage on Israeli civilians, who were out gunned & had family members murdered in front of them. Western activists supporting Palestine seem to ignore hostages held by Hamas & the willing human shields & forget that it is Hamas that attacked & killed IDF troops at the crossing — the closure of the 2 border crossings & the siege, is due to acts of war by Hamas.
(a) The IDF does not have to feed the enemy. The IDF wants these human shields to exit, for the fight to come. And it will come — as per the plan by Hamas. And Team Biden is working on a plan for a humanitarian corridor.
(b) Every human shield Hamas keeps, helps them in their war plans. All the screaming on social media is to maximise the no. of Human Shields they can hold, in the next 4 months. Meanwhile, IDF spokesman Rear Adm. Daniel Hagari says the military's strikes in the Gaza Strip are crippling Hamas:
"We are destroying Hamas's ability to function as a sovereign, it no longer manages to manage Gaza...”
(c) Hamas wants this siege & any food & water than enters will go to their fighters, not to the civilians. Hamas are holding hostages at defended C2 nodes. It will take time to clear city blocks & penetrate deep into Hamas held areas for the rescue attempt.
4. Ultimately, it is a reservist IDF Maj. with common sense that sets the record straight.
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Big_Zucchini
Well-Known Member
Israel is probably one of the least ethnically homogenous nations on earth. That's not what we're striving for. And Israel has plenty of Arabs that we don't intend on hurting or infringing on their rights any time soon, many of whom are doing vital work that is well recognized.
It is about keeping the threat away from our front door. Iran is one of Palestine's largest supporters. I'm sure if a proposal came, they'd gladly accept.
I think it's pointless to ask for specifics. I raised the idea that is now prevalent in Israel. If anyone actually wants to realize it, there will be plenty of army staff, diplomats, lawyers, and experts, ironing out the specifics.
Do I think there will be a mass exodus? No.
But Gaza can now only rely on food and water from their own fields and aquifers, and Egypt's supplies - all of which are unavailable because Hamas did not care enough about running its natural resources properly, and kept antagonizing Egypt.
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Big_Zucchini
Well-Known Member
Few updates:
1. Gantz and his fellow party member Eisenkot enter an agreement with Netanyahu to form a war cabinet consisting of them plus current defense minister Yoav Gallant, and minister of strategic affairs Ron Dermer. There are reportedly two seats reserved for longtime opposition leader Yair Lapid and Yisrael Beitenu party leader Avigdor Liberman.
2. Lapid and Gantz reportedly did not coordinate their moves, and Lapid has his own demands - to oust current secondary defense minister (yes, this apparently exists) Bezalel Smotrich and minister of homeland security Itamar Ben Gvir - the government's most extreme voices as well as symbols of its incompetence. As of yet, Netanyahu refused these demands.
www.timesofisrael.com
3. Sirens sounded all across northern Israel, sending millions to the bomb shelters and protected rooms. It sounded just as I got home from work, giving me enough time to boss my family around and enjoy the nostalgia as my last air raid siren was in 2006.
www.ynet.co.il
4. It's been less than a week since the war began, and the IDF has already conducted strikes on a scale never seen before. Hamas may be technically in power but it has lost control over what happens, including informational cutoff.
5. Minister of energy and infrastructure Yisrael Katz says electricity and water will remain off until Hamas returns all hostages to Israel. "Humanitarian for humanitarian". The ministry is said to formally explain its water and electricity supply policy this evening (Israel time).
www.jpost.com
6. Hamas is ideologically and practically very much similar to ISIS, just under a different name and people fighting for power. But a little known fact is that ISIS does in fact exist in all Palestinian territories, and its flags are also found all over the infiltrated areas.
7. Over 360,000 reservists now ready for war across all fronts. Equipment shortages were felt at first as distribution for so many people is a massive logistical undertaking. This is something the IDF will need to fix in the future. However unlike the previous massive callup (Protective Edge - ~70k) where soldiers were worried for themselves, and families worried about their children, this time morale is sky high. Soldiers are mostly complaining about waiting too long to enter Gaza.
8. IDF continues attacking Gaza's Rimal neighborhood, considered to be Gaza's wealthiest, housing much of its elites. This is a major step up from previous operations where the IDF targeted Hamas's military infrastructure, but not its high ranking figures.
1. Gantz and his fellow party member Eisenkot enter an agreement with Netanyahu to form a war cabinet consisting of them plus current defense minister Yoav Gallant, and minister of strategic affairs Ron Dermer. There are reportedly two seats reserved for longtime opposition leader Yair Lapid and Yisrael Beitenu party leader Avigdor Liberman.
2. Lapid and Gantz reportedly did not coordinate their moves, and Lapid has his own demands - to oust current secondary defense minister (yes, this apparently exists) Bezalel Smotrich and minister of homeland security Itamar Ben Gvir - the government's most extreme voices as well as symbols of its incompetence. As of yet, Netanyahu refused these demands.
After days of indecision, Netanyahu, Gantz agree to establish emergency war government
Lapid still sitting out new coalition over demand that PM oust Smotrich, Ben Gvir; all non-wartime legislation suspended, including judicial overhaul
www.timesofisrael.com
3. Sirens sounded all across northern Israel, sending millions to the bomb shelters and protected rooms. It sounded just as I got home from work, giving me enough time to boss my family around and enjoy the nostalgia as my last air raid siren was in 2006.
כשלי התרעות השווא: "הוריתי לשחרר, חייל הבין הפוך - והכניס את כולם לממ"ד"
אלוף פיקוד העורף התייחס לטעויות שגרמו לתושבי הצפון להסתגר בבתים, ואחר כך לכל המדינה להיכנס למרחבים מוגנים: "היה זיהוי שגוי של גלשונים חודרים מלבנון". גם על סרטון ההצטיידות הוא מתנצל: "לוקחים אחריות על הטעות"
www.ynet.co.il
4. It's been less than a week since the war began, and the IDF has already conducted strikes on a scale never seen before. Hamas may be technically in power but it has lost control over what happens, including informational cutoff.
5. Minister of energy and infrastructure Yisrael Katz says electricity and water will remain off until Hamas returns all hostages to Israel. "Humanitarian for humanitarian". The ministry is said to formally explain its water and electricity supply policy this evening (Israel time).
IDF: Hamas' control of Gaza is faltering, will explain water, power cuts
IDF spokesperson Hagari said Hamas is no longer aware in real time which of its commanders are alive or dead.
www.jpost.com
6. Hamas is ideologically and practically very much similar to ISIS, just under a different name and people fighting for power. But a little known fact is that ISIS does in fact exist in all Palestinian territories, and its flags are also found all over the infiltrated areas.
7. Over 360,000 reservists now ready for war across all fronts. Equipment shortages were felt at first as distribution for so many people is a massive logistical undertaking. This is something the IDF will need to fix in the future. However unlike the previous massive callup (Protective Edge - ~70k) where soldiers were worried for themselves, and families worried about their children, this time morale is sky high. Soldiers are mostly complaining about waiting too long to enter Gaza.
8. IDF continues attacking Gaza's Rimal neighborhood, considered to be Gaza's wealthiest, housing much of its elites. This is a major step up from previous operations where the IDF targeted Hamas's military infrastructure, but not its high ranking figures.
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