Italian Army discussion and Update

[ngatimozart]

Many news this week regarding Italian armed forces.
Speculations ( but NO official statements ) about undergoing negotiations between Italy and Germany to open a Leopard 2 production line in Italy. Unclear whether these new tanks will replace ( unlikely ) or operate side by side ( more likely ) with the 125 Ariete C2 modernized ( program currently going according to schedule ).
125-200 tanks + special versions are the most probable numbers.

here the original italian source:

RID Rivista Italiana Difesa - LEOPARD 2 per l’Italia, quali scelte fare?

LEOPARD 2 per l’Italia, quali scelte fare?

www.rid.it

Here an english one:

Italy begins negotiations to buy new Leopard 2 tanks

Italy is negotiating a purchase of new Leopard 2 main battle tanks from Germany. Italian Defense magazine RID (Rivista Italiana Difesa) was the first to report on the negotiation for the procurement of an undisclosed number of Leopard tanks in 2A7 or 2A8 configuration. According to RID, a deal...

defence-blog.com

I won't say anything, don't like to say pure speculations.
This situation is, however, the result of 20 years of armoured forces heavy underfunding.

If the Italians are buying the Leopard II, it actually makes sense because sustainment will be cheaper due to the large number of Leopard II that have been built and are in service. Whilst there are some advantages in having a domestic tank design and manufacturing capability, in Italy's case I believe that going with Leopard II gives it better VfM (Value for Money).

 

[swerve]

Italy hasn't designed a tank for 30 years, or manufactured one for 20 years. I don't think returning to tank design is a realistic option. Assembly of Leopard 2, & manufacture of some parts, is reasonable, though. Italy still makes armoured vehicles, albeit only wheeled ones.

 

[SolarisKenzo]

Italy hasn't designed a tank for 30 years, or manufactured one for 20 years. I don't think returning to tank design is a realistic option. Assembly of Leopard 2, & manufacture of some parts, is reasonable, though. Italy still makes armoured vehicles, albeit only wheeled ones.

Leopard 2 is the only realistic option, a domestic tank is at the moment just non-existant and would in any case be a failure.
To team up with KNDS is also a way to ensure some minor shares of the MGCS ( the italian chief of staff of the army said Italy's new MBT will be the MGCS, so its actually official ).
The italian experience with the Ariete tank is really bad: CIO ( the consortium that built the vehicle ) performed extremly poorly in any way and was always ages behind german companies. Italian armed forces said clearly that they strongly oppose any kind of italian-made MBT and want the Leopard, also to have the same equipment and supply chains as other EU nations.
All of this is official and I also posted that before in this discussion.

Wheeled vehicles are really good vehicles. SuperAV, Centauro II, Lynx... are all combat-proven and efficient.
Lets hope for the best.
Remember Italy still has to make a choice about the new IFV, with a program already approved by the Parliament in 2022 for 570 new IFVs.

 

[SolarisKenzo]

Defence ViceMinister officially announced Italy is going to start procurement of Leopard 2 tanks as soon as the Parliament will approve it.
The approval process Could take several months, but at least it's official.

 

[SolarisKenzo]

More infos about Italy purchasing Leopard 2s.
Rumors talks about 150-200 units.

Carri armati Leopard 2 per l'Italia

Nel corso dell’audizione parlamentare (Interrogazioni a Risposta immediata) dinanzi alla IV Commissione Difesa della Camera dei Deputati, il Sottosegretario di Stato alla Difesa Isabella Rauti ha annunciato che il programma di acquisto di nuovi carri armati, in specie i Leopard 2, sarà inserito...

aresdifesa.it

This is an article from RID, an industry-financed magazined that was against buying Leopard 2s ( for obvious reasons... their main sponsor is Leonardo/Iveco ).

RID Rivista Italiana Difesa - LEOPARD 2 per l’EI, al via il programma di acquisizione

LEOPARD 2 per l’EI, al via il programma di acquisizione

www.rid.it

 

[SolarisKenzo]

Major General Vannacci, former commander of paratroopers Brigade "Folgore" and currently head of an Army department, to face consequences after publishing an unapproved book.
In the book, the General says that " Gays are not normal ", " homosexuals needs to be treated ", " immigrants should be shot " and so on.

This is extremely embarrassing for the Italian MoD since Gen. Vannacci is one of the most known Generals currently in service in the Army.

Il generale Vannacci contro i gay. Crosetto: 'Esame disciplinare' - Notizie - Ansa.it

In un saggio l'ex ufficiale della Folgore, che ora dirige l'Istituto geografico militare, prende di mira gli omosessuali e attacca il femminismo e i clandestini. L'Esercito: 'Prendiamo le distanze' (ANSA)

www.ansa.it

 

[John Fedup]

Major General Vannacci, former commander of paratroopers Brigade "Folgore" and currently head of an Army department, to face consequences after publishing an unapproved book.
In the book, the General says that " Gays are not normal ", " homosexuals needs to be treated ", " immigrants should be shot " and so on.

This is extremely embarrassing for the Italian MoD since Gen. Vannacci is one of the most known Generals currently in service in the Army.

Il generale Vannacci contro i gay. Crosetto: 'Esame disciplinare' - Notizie - Ansa.it

In un saggio l'ex ufficiale della Folgore, che ora dirige l'Istituto geografico militare, prende di mira gli omosessuali e attacca il femminismo e i clandestini. L'Esercito: 'Prendiamo le distanze' (ANSA)

www.ansa.it

Must be planning for a political career with a far right party.

 

[Meriv90]

Regardless of what you read on international papers about this goverment (people use the word fascist too much when in reality is Peronist way more dangerous) and the far right, even they don't use the wording he used. Nah even if he wanted he wouldn't find space in politics.

And I vote left. Dam my favourite politician is a communist era Minniti, "the lord of spies" Marco Minniti - Wikipedia completely opposed to the migration we have.

 

[ngatimozart]

Regardless of what you read on international papers about this goverment (people use the word fascist too much when in reality is Peronist way more dangerous) and the far right, even they don't use the wording he used. Nah even if he wanted he wouldn't find space in politics.

And I vote left. Dam my favourite politician is a communist era Minniti, "the lord of spies" Marco Minniti - Wikipedia completely opposed to the migration we have.

I saw that your PM publicly ripped someone from the 5 Star party a new arsehole about supporting Putinist Russia. Good on her.

 

[SolarisKenzo]

Thats not the proper discussion at all, but lets just say that the 5S party and the "Lega" ( which is part of the current gov ) are notoriusly pro-chinese and pro-russian parties, that have also been officially recognized as foreign-influenced actors within the EU.
Lega is currently registered as a "friend" of Putin's party "United Russia" by an agreement signed officially in Russia some years ago and automatically renewed every year ( this year too ). here's a link:

Il testo dell’accordo tra Lega e Russia Unita - radicali.it

Portiamo Vladimir Putin dinanzi alla Corte Penale Internazionale per rispondere dei crimini di guerra e contro l’umanità commessi in Ucraina. Firma ora il nostro appello Putin all'Aja! Scrivi il codice S47 nella tua dichiarazione dei redditi per dare forza questa campagna: a te non costa nulla...

radicali.it

M5S party is, actually, more of a chinese fifth-column in Europe.
They have been widely recognized as a chinese puppet party with strong ties with Russia too.
5 Star party was the first foreign party in the world to go on an official visit in Crimea after it was invaded by Russia.

Una delegazione di pace M5S in Russia e Crimea - Il Blog delle Stelle

di Manlio Di Stefano In una fase di gravissima crisi economica e di dignità politica del nostro paese, il Movimento 5 Stelle si è sempre battuto in Parlamento contro le sanzioni imposte alla Russia dall'Unione Europea, misure alle quali ha dato il suo contributo anche il governo italiano e che...

www.ilblogdellestelle.it

We can continue somewhere else, if you are interested.
I don't think its good to go on here...

 

[SolarisKenzo]

C2 Ariete



Contract was signed last month for 90 MBTs ( instead of 125 planned ) with 35 on option, probably to make room for the funding of Leopard 2a8 program.
credit:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1709502604068159980

link: ARIETE C2

 

[Ananda]

Do you information or even rumours on what happen to the rest of Ariete ? There's rumours here in SEA, Italian wiling to sell them (rest of Ariete that's not going to upgrade) still in working conditions.

 

[SolarisKenzo]

Do you information or even rumours on what happen to the rest of Ariete ? There's rumours here in SEA, Italian wiling to sell them (rest of Ariete that's not going to upgrade) still in working conditions.

200 Ariete were produced, 125 will be upgraded ( 90 + 35 option ).
The first dozen was scrapped years ago.
The first tranche ( 30 vehicles? difficult to say ) had problems with the frontal plate armor and were dismissed from service in the early 2000s ( after operation " Ancient Babilon" Operation Ancient Babylon - Wikipedia ).
The rest of the vehicles are either in storage or were used as spare parts.
There are no other working Arietes, all the vehicles in working condition will be upgraded or used for parts.

 

[swerve]

Are any of those in storage fit to be restored to working condition?

 

[SolarisKenzo]

Are any of those in storage fit to be restored to working condition?

Unlikely.
The Army struggled to maintain the current 125 MBT fleet.

 

[swerve]

Why the struggle? Inadequate resources? Inherent unreliability of the Ariete?

 

[Meriv90]

If not wrong the reason is because Ariete was programmed before the fall of the wall.

So the peace dividends cut its number and also the B1 Centauro ate part of the C1 numbers thus throwing to the trash the economic projections making updating and keeping the fleet unsustainable.

 

[swerve]

So it's politics & money, not technical issues.

There's been a big change in the security environment. Hasn't that had any effect?

 

[SolarisKenzo]

So it's politics & money, not technical issues.

There's been a big change in the security environment. Hasn't that had any effect?

I don't know where Meriv90 got his informations, but they are not really correct.

As I said to Ananda:
200 produced:
- 12 circa pre-series and various prototypes scrapped
- 25/40 first tranche suffered from critical damage on the frontal plate due to technical issues during the assembly in the factory.
All put to storage and possibly scrapped.
- 5/10 scrapped or put to storage due to various problems, technical and during use.

This leaves us with 150 Ariete circa.
125 will be upgraded and the rest used for spare parts.

I have no idea what the B1 Centauri has to do with Ariete??

 

[SolarisKenzo]

If not wrong the reason is because Ariete was programmed before the fall of the wall.

So the peace dividends cut its number and also the B1 Centauro ate part of the C1 numbers thus throwing to the trash the economic projections making updating and keeping the fleet unsustainable.

You are perfectly right about peace dividends, money were just non existant.

But the B1 Centauro did not really ate the C1 Ariete funds.
There were no funds to be eaten!