NZDF General discussion thread

[swerve]

...
5. Following spending NZ taxpayers $638.9m and experiencing some delay with LMC, to get an ANZAC FSU GP FFH with mechanical radar,.

... unique Sea Ceptor SAM ...

Smart-S Mk2 isn't mechanical, except in that it's single-faced, so has to rotate for full coverage (just as single-faced & even double-faced AESA radars do), & not AESA, but it's not a single beam pointing in a single direction. It's a passive electronically scanning array & is able to generate multiple beams. You describe it as if it's like something from WW2.

RNZN ANZACs have 2.5 times as many SAMs as when built, with longer range, & no longer dependent on illumination by the ship. I agree that 20 isn't a large number of missiles, but it's a big improvement over 8. And they don't have topweight issues.

Unique? Currently used by three navies & selected by four others. And a couple of armies. And that's not counting the ER version.

 

[ngatimozart]

OK, I'll bite.

Continuing this fantasy thread about the RNZN getting a militarily sensible number of '1st tier' FFGs without the boring SNCO shoulder-chip; why:
1. Because being a responsible strategic partner, NZG want to deter PLAN, be capable of fighting them if required with a degree of survivability for RNZN peps, and effectively contribute with our partners to the collective defence of NZ SLOC
2. It may be that Hunters alphabet soup suite, if it survives the next RAN review, is better than RCN CSCs suite; it may not
3. Personally, having done a little bit of TD work with CEA Tech systems I was somewhat impressed, but thats smaller scope than comparing CEC and AEGIS with CEAFAR2 v RCN CSC SPY-7 v USN Constellation SPY-6 etc
4. It may be that local design and logistics with NZ's only strategic partner is a consideration, both politically and militarily
5. Following spending NZ taxpayers $638.9m and experiencing some delay with LMC, to get an ANZAC FSU GP FFH with mechanical radar, no SSM, no Nulka, and 10 shots of a small, short ranged, unique Sea Ceptor SAM, it may have been a mistake for my NZG not to have instead been involved in the RAN ANZAC ASMD/AMCAP FFH program with a better radar, SSM, and 16 shots of a NATO standard, longer range, bigger, SAM; but, you do get bragging rights for retaining the cool looking CIWS and burning fuel 2'ish knots faster

Nulka is not the be all to end all and last time I looked the RNZN isn't part of the ADF.

6. My 2014 experiences with a RNZN LT CDR engineer about Sea Ceptor being a better fit for NZ due to its active seeker reducing the ships radar requirements may not reflect the lack of professional advice to NZG; or it may; whichever, it is no surprise that RNZN has over the past decades lost reams of professional war-fighting mastery due to conscious NZG decisions to operate a coast guard and not a fighting navy (or army or air force obviously)

Finally, I'd bet my first born that cobbling together a bespoke weapons system into whatever NZG settles for in our planned 2035 war canoe, instead of selecting an unmodified FVEY ASW FFG, will end in tears and satisfy only the politicians and contractors.

Capability projects | Ministry of Defence website

www.defence.govt.nz

FYI the hold ups with the Frigate upgrades wasn't LMC's fault. It was the Canadian shipyards having various problems.

 

[Gooey]

Smart-S Mk2 isn't mechanical

Thanks swerve.
I appreciate the detail in you note.
I understood that she had an advanced radar single transmitter/receiver face, but not that it is PESA. Wiki (cough), say 12 beams in E/F Band ... . No, I did not infer that it was WWII vintage; however, she rotates, which makes this a mechanical system and therefore, straight away, is significantly slower detecting targets. The 3-5 sec (plucked number) for each rotation is logarithmically greater than a multi faced, fixed panel, system. The current RAN ANZACs would be in the order of micro-seconds instead; understanding, that detection variables are similar.

https://www.thalesdsi.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/Smart-S-Data-Sheet.pdf

The CEAFAR multi band (L, S, & X band) and 5 (6?) panel faces (each with the capability to form 10's of beams (I'm being deliberately vague here)) would I suggest also give increased flexibility in ranges and target searching v tracking. I've assumed that the SPY-1/6/7 and Polish A140 system being 4 faced have a drop off in performance outside of 60 degrees off the perpendicular; but sort of kept this to myself previously as there is so much clever computer wave-form compensations.

Feature: FIGHTING FIT | ADBR

Navy’s eight Anzac frigates have come a long way over the past two decades.

adbr.com.au

Finally, yes correct; the 20 missile/10 shot Sea Ceptor magazine is 2.5 greater than previously. That's why RAN went with ESSM and got a 32 missile/16 shot magazine without having to change out the Mk 41 launcher. I understand that due to it's size the RAN & RNZN ANZACs have always had a weight & balance issue, which leads to trade offs.

I'd argue that CEAFAR/ESSM is a better result for being both a fighting ship, and VfM, than our FSU efforts. Therefore, survivability for the crews.

 

[Gooey]

Nulka is not the be all to end all and ...

In my limited EW experience within the air domain, there is nothing that is 'be all' in a complex Radio Frequency environment; however, even the humble chaff cloud has its place in the modern era if it is executed well as part of an integrated effort. A modular RF Electronic Attack device atop a controlled hovering rocket, would conceptually have an significant influence similar to an aircraft's towed-radar-decoy. Alternatively, Nulka being fitted to most of the RAN, RCN, and USN floaty-things would suggest this system is popular for a reason and offers some capability worth having if you want to fight the PLAN.

 

[JohnJT]

This picture shows the size comparison between the three CAMM variants: CAMM, CAMM-ER and CAMM-MR.
While CAMM and CAMM-ER use the same launch canister (just different lengths), CAMM-MR is too large and may not be able to be quad packed in a Mk 41? Not sure.
It's such a great idea to just add larger rocket motors to the same missile. You leverage the existing excellent guidance and control system to produce longer and longer range missiles relatively easily.
If NZ stick with CAMM in the future they will have options.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1699351841996222920

 

[spoz]

It would actually be interesting to see if the US would agree to the release of Nulka to NZ; I believe that interest from some other potential customers has been deflected in the past

 

[swerve]

Thanks swerve.
I appreciate the detail in you note.
I understood that she had an advanced radar single transmitter/receiver face, but not that it is PESA. Wiki (cough), say 12 beams in E/F Band ... . No, I did not infer that it was WWII vintage; however, she rotates, which makes this a mechanical system and therefore, straight away, is significantly slower detecting targets. The 3-5 sec (plucked number) for each rotation is logarithmically greater than a multi faced, fixed panel, system. The current RAN ANZACs would be in the order of micro-seconds instead; understanding, that detection variables are similar.

https://www.thalesdsi.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/Smart-S-Data-Sheet.pdf

Traditionally, "mechanical" in the context of a radar has been used to distinguish radars in which the beam is entirely mechanically steered from radars which can steer beams electronically. For example, Smart-L has a single face & rotates, & Sampson has two faces & rotates, but neither has ever been called mechanical in my experience, & I've been paying attention to them for 20 years. I'm afraid that you're using a definition which is different from that which has been generally accepted for decades. You're calling phased arrays with hundreds to thousands of elements "mechanical" - & implicitly, you're calling some AESA radars mechanical, because they have a mechanical element.

Consider the ES-05 radar of Gripen E. Do you consider it a mechanical radar? To quote Leonardo - "RAVEN ES-05 is part of a family of AESA Radars delivering greater performance and higher reliability than comparable mechanically scanned radars". But it has a mechanical repositioner!
https://electronics.leonardo.com/do...06/Raven_ES05_LQ_mm07819_.pdf?t=1538987505704

Oh, & the datasheet you link to says Smart-S rotates in 2.2 to 4.4 seconds depending on mode, not 3 to 5 seconds. Perhaps you should have read it.

 

[ngatimozart]

This picture shows the size comparison between the three CAMM variants: CAMM, CAMM-ER and CAMM-MR.
While CAMM and CAMM-ER use the same launch canister (just different lengths), CAMM-MR is too large and may not be able to be quad packed in a Mk 41? Not sure.
It's such a great idea to just add larger rocket motors to the same missile. You leverage the existing excellent guidance and control system to produce longer and longer range missiles relatively easily.
If NZ stick with CAMM in the future they will have options.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1699351841996222920

I think that CAMM and CAMM-ER are good for us, but if we want a longer ranged SAM then we should go with SM-2 because it will be easier for us logistically. That is also one of the reasons why I am a strong advocate for the continued and future LMC CMS330 use in RNZN service. It has the SM-2, CAMM and ESSM Blk II integrated into it and if we struggle to replace used CAMM then we can use ESSM Blk II from USN and / or RAN stocks if need be. I am looking at this through a logistics lens.

 

[Todjaeger]

I think that CAMM and CAMM-ER are good for us, but if we want a longer ranged SAM then we should go with SM-2 because it will be easier for us logistically. That is also one of the reasons why I am a strong advocate for the continued and future LMC CMS330 use in RNZN service. It has the SM-2, CAMM and ESSM Blk II integrated into it and if we struggle to replace used CAMM then we can use ESSM Blk II from USN and / or RAN stocks if need be. I am looking at this through a logistics lens.

Much will depend on what VLS system the RNZN goes with. The current Kiwi ANZAC-class frigates cannot be fitted with ESSM or ESSM Block II following the removal of the Mk 41 VLS. If (big IF...) a future Kiwi frigate class had at least tactical-length Mk 41 VLS cells, then Standard missiles could be in among the available options. However, if the SM-2 were to be fitted, the Kiwi frigates would also require an illuminator since SM-2 uses semi-active guidance.

 

[kiwi in exile]

Great discussion.
Is it time it migrated to the RNZN thread?

 

[JohnJT]

However, if the SM-2 were to be fitted, the Kiwi frigates would also require an illuminator since SM-2 uses semi-active guidance.

The SM-2 block IIIC uses active homing and doesn't require illumination. The Constellation class does not have illuminators and will use this missile and/or SM-6. A compatible radar and CMS are the important requirements.

It's also worth noting that SM-2 versions are different depending on whether they are designed for AEGIS or non-AEGIS systems.

Likewise there is a version of the missile (SM-2 block IIIAZ) which is only compatible with the Zumwalt class due to it's bastardized SPY-3 radar and Mk 57 VLS.

 

[Nighthawk.NZ]

Just after our National Security Strategy and Taiwan representative says ...

Taiwan warns NZ shouldn't be complacent over 'a more assertive' China

"We are seeing a more assertive and growing China."

www.newshub.co.nz

 

[JohnJT]

CAMM-MR is too large and may not be able to be quad packed in a Mk 41? Not sure.

CAMM-MR will be twin packed in a Mk 41 cell:

A CAMM-MR being launched from a Mk 41 VLS. Note that two missiles can fit in a single cell.

MBDA and PGZ join forces on CAMM-MR development - Naval News

MBDA and PGZ have signed an agreement to co-operate on developing a new CAMM-MR medium-range low-cost interceptor at MSPO 2023 in Kielce.

www.navalnews.com

 

[ADMk2]

The SM-2 block IIIC uses active homing and doesn't require illumination. The Constellation class does not have illuminators and will use this missile and/or SM-6. A compatible radar and CMS are the important requirements.

It's also worth noting that SM-2 versions are different depending on whether they are designed for AEGIS or non-AEGIS systems.

Likewise there is a version of the missile (SM-2 block IIIAZ) which is only compatible with the Zumwalt class due to it's bastardized SPY-3 radar and Mk 57 VLS.

SM-2 Block IIIC, SM-6 and ESSM Block II have active radar guidance capability that is true, however they also have semi-active radar guidance capability inherited from their legacy variants. If you operate them from a vessel without illuminators, unless illumination from a friendly ship is somehow possible, you are employing these missiles with only part of their intended capability…

Anyhoo back to the NZDF, which doesn’t operate any of them and has no announced plans to do…

 

[ngatimozart]

Much will depend on what VLS system the RNZN goes with. The current Kiwi ANZAC-class frigates cannot be fitted with ESSM or ESSM Block II following the removal of the Mk 41 VLS. If (big IF...) a future Kiwi frigate class had at least tactical-length Mk 41 VLS cells, then Standard missiles could be in among the available options. However, if the SM-2 were to be fitted, the Kiwi frigates would also require an illuminator since SM-2 uses semi-active guidance.

We would be fools to stay away from the Mk-41 VLS. The Poms have finally seen the light and are acquiring it.

 

[ngatimozart]

Just after our National Security Strategy and Taiwan representative says ...

Taiwan warns NZ shouldn't be complacent over 'a more assertive' China

"We are seeing a more assertive and growing China."

www.newshub.co.nz

The Poms have charged a Parliamentary researcher with spying for the PRC.

Parliament researcher rejects China spying claims

In a statement issued through his lawyers, the man said he felt "forced to respond" to media accusations.

www.bbc.com

I think that CCP has quite successfully infiltrated the NZ Parliament and our political parties.

 

[Shanesworld]

The Poms have charged a Parliamentary researcher with spying for the PRC.

Parliament researcher rejects China spying claims

In a statement issued through his lawyers, the man said he felt "forced to respond" to media accusations.

www.bbc.com

I think that CCP has quite successfully infiltrated the NZ Parliament and our political parties.

I am more worried about infiltration of the ministries, the police and the service providers. Its harder to vote them out and they are largely nameless.
The level of disfunction, incompetence, trivial superficialify and blindness to serious consequences is only made worse if we as a country arrived at this point without the effect of a chinese influence campaign.

 

[John Fedup]

I am more worried about infiltration of the ministries, the police and the service providers. Its harder to vote them out and they are largely nameless.
The level of disfunction, incompetence, trivial superficialify and blindness to serious consequences is only made worse if we as a country arrived at this point without the effect of a chinese influence campaign.

Same applies to Canada but likely on a larger scale and there are two powers involved.

 

[Nighthawk.NZ]

Fairer... erererrrrr pay for NZDF (is that a word)

it is good to see that anything with the NZDF is be on the campaign trail... however we all know where I stand... this is just a wag the carrot in front of the donkey nothing more.

Labour pledges to ensure fair pay for uniformed defence personnel

Labour would task the Remuneration Authority with setting pay independently.

www.1news.co.nz

 

[recce.k1]

Fairer... erererrrrr pay for NZDF (is that a word)

it is good to see that anything with the NZDF is be on the campaign trail... however we all know where I stand... this is just a wag the carrot in front of the donkey nothing more.

Labour pledges to ensure fair pay for uniformed defence personnel

Labour would task the Remuneration Authority with setting pay independently.

www.1news.co.nz

Which appears to sound good but at the same time they want to tinker with the Defence Act 1990 because according to Mr Little "circumstances are different today" appearing to mean they want more civilian oversight.

Is there actually a problem (as no-one has been saying there is)? Or simply the want of more bureaucracy and bureaucrats/activists smothering efficiency and independence?

Perhaps if SEJ is about he could give us some informed perspectives.

Labour promises Defence Force pay would be set independently

Labour is promising to make it so Defence Force pay rates are set independently of the government, and review the Defence Act.

www.rnz.co.nz