New Zealand's stealth unmanned attack heli

[pezfez]

TGR Helicorp LTD of new zealand has begun testing of an unmanned stealth attack heli, The Snark, powered by the world's first deisel engine for a modern heli, made by a wisconsin aerospace company.

the pic in the milwaukee journal sentinel looked like a commanche with no pilots and weapons holdings like any other attack heli

talking about engine and the heli
http://www.jsonline.com/bym/news/oct04/268301.asp

the heli, just copy and paste
http://www.times.co.nz/features_hp/features_04/trevor_rogers.htm

looking to get marketed by boeing or other big players

 

[redsoulja]

the milwaukee journal doesn't show pic
any1 got pic
i wanna see this thing
its gonna looks so sick :eek

 

[gf0012-aust]

There are no pics of this platform. AFAIK there has been no further info since the initial article.

I checked with people I deal with in NZDEF and they have no idea about it.

Personally I'd be putting money on future opportunities with the RMAX or Dragonfly. mature platforms and already in use and trial.

 

[redsoulja]

gary are there any other good unmanned helos in development??
any good pics of any unmanned helo?

 

[myspy]

Have seen press release published in uvs-international. Looks wicked.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Have seen press release published in uvs-international. Looks wicked.

First things first. Welcome to the forums, and I hope you enjoy your visits

Secondly, a minor housekeeping detail that will become major if not listened to. We don't allow oneliner responses in the forums. We do expect people to add some more detail in their responses to add some momentum and conversation to the topic.

cheers. gf

 

[nzbm]

I don't think that the New Zealand Defence Force would pursue a UAV project under the current Labour government. The NZDF is already committed to a large capital investment program and might not be able to afford such a capability because of political sensitivity to anything defence related over here...

PS. Before we even think about getting unmanned helis we need new transport helicopters...

 

[redsoulja]

hey is there a pci anyone has of the helo so far? I wanted to see it and am lookign forwatrd but cant find anything online...

 

[EnigmaNZ]

Got this off a Russian forum at
http://www.waronline.org/forum/
Military helicopter drone takes off from East Tamaki

By Mary MacKinven
[...]
TGR’s [VTOL] UAV has fully autonomous flight and mission capability, very long range, and is New Zealand designed and manufactured.

Every piece of this full size helicopter, branded a Snark – named after the elusive but courageous character in Lewis Carroll’s poem The Hunting of the Snark – has been designed and manufactured by TGR staff in Auckland.

The Snark technology claims a number of world firsts: autonomous flight, take off and landing mission capable helicopter; a fully armed/defence UAV helicopter; a diesel powered helicopter, making it compatible with military ships instead of Avgas 100 octane fuel and its associated combustibility.

Also unique, exhaust emissions are mixed with cold air inside the helicopter with a resultant very low heat signature discharge, making Snark hard to hit with a heat-seeking missile.

The aircraft can be diverted by the base station operator to uplift two injured soldiers on stretchers on its landing gear and then return to its planned computer controlled mission or to base.

It has two infrared cameras designed and built by TGR with “formidable capabilityâ€, ie, the aircraft can designate a target, transmit pictures by satellite to its ground station or defend itself against attack from long range, front or rear, and has a series of operational options, ranges and equipment specifically designed for its missions.

The Snark is quickly dismantled and loaded into its hanger, or reassembled and flight ready, in four hours, says Trevor. Snark comes with its own mobile hanger as a package.
[...]
Already in design is a bigger version of the Snark, to be called what else but the Boojum?

 

[Pendekar]

i prefer not to be pick up by some robot chopper when injured. machine are precise but they lack human reliability. some glitch might trigger an event, that instead of picking me up, it might release all it's weapons load on top of injured me.

 

[aaaditya]

well youve got a point pendekar ,but i think wether for rescue or attack the robo chopper would be controlled by a human being ony difference is that he would not be sitting in it besides your fears are also applicable to a conventional helicopter(what if it suffers a problem and crashes on top of you ). :coffee

 

[EnigmaNZ]

Dammed if I want to be picked up by a helo with the pilot 100's of km away, lol. He would hopefully be flying it using a full virtual reality system, seeing what the helos sensors see as if he was inside, particulary if some nap of the earth flying is needed to escape detection.
Here are some links to other sites with info about remote controlled AC

The RQ-1 Predator
http://usmilitary.about.com/library/milinfo/affacts/blrq-1.htm
http://www.fas.org/irp/program/collect/predator.htm
http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/predator/
Global Hawk
http://www.af.mil/factsheets/factsheet.asp?fsID=175
http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/global/
http://www.fas.org/irp/program/collect/global_hawk.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Hawk

Interesting exert from the last site
"Other operators; As of February 2004, Australia has committed to 5-6 Global Hawk airframes for maritime and land surveillance, to replace their Lockheed Martin P-3 Orion patrol aircraft and English Electric Canberra reconnaissance aircraft, with deliveries in 2004-2005. Joint USAF/RAAF exercises in 2001 demonstrated the utility of the Global Hawk in Australian waters. In addition, Australia increased their requirements from merely a maritime role to a land surveillance role after observing American usage in 2003."

 

[AlexSWE]

Got this off a Russian forum at
http://www.waronline.org/forum/
Military helicopter drone takes off from East Tamaki

By Mary MacKinven
[...]
TGR’s [VTOL] UAV has fully autonomous flight and mission capability, very long range, and is New Zealand designed and manufactured.

Every piece of this full size helicopter, branded a Snark – named after the elusive but courageous character in Lewis Carroll’s poem The Hunting of the Snark – has been designed and manufactured by TGR staff in Auckland.

The Snark technology claims a number of world firsts: autonomous flight, take off and landing mission capable helicopter; a fully armed/defence UAV helicopter; a diesel powered helicopter, making it compatible with military ships instead of Avgas 100 octane fuel and its associated combustibility.

Also unique, exhaust emissions are mixed with cold air inside the helicopter with a resultant very low heat signature discharge, making Snark hard to hit with a heat-seeking missile.

The aircraft can be diverted by the base station operator to uplift two injured soldiers on stretchers on its landing gear and then return to its planned computer controlled mission or to base.

It has two infrared cameras designed and built by TGR with “formidable capabilityâ€, ie, the aircraft can designate a target, transmit pictures by satellite to its ground station or defend itself against attack from long range, front or rear, and has a series of operational options, ranges and equipment specifically designed for its missions.

The Snark is quickly dismantled and loaded into its hanger, or reassembled and flight ready, in four hours, says Trevor. Snark comes with its own mobile hanger as a package.
[...]
Already in design is a bigger version of the Snark, to be called what else but the Boojum?

It might have done the first autonomous flight for a helicopter, but I doubt its the first autonomous UAV/UCAV. But its not stated (haven't checked the whole article) when the first autonomous flight took place.

SAAB was one of the first to do a autonomous flight with an UCAV, aswell as the American X-45 project.

SAAB was also in on the Global Hawk that was manufactured by Northrop Grumman

 

[gf0012-aust]

IIRC, the first autonomous flight by a Unmanned Rotor was the Yamaha RMAX.

It's probably a grey area as I recall seeing remote controlled helicopters about 20 years ago.

It will probably get down to whats separates an RC helo and an Unmanned rotor.

I'd like to know what happened to this project, but I must confess that I'm a fan of the RMAX.

 

[EnigmaNZ]

Actually you can go further back to the late '50's when the US navy tried unmanned helos for anti sub warfare, the program was canceled as the tech of the day wasn't up to it iirc.Hmm, not fully autonomous flight thou, but interesting.

"In 1960 Gyrodyne demonstrated for the U.S. Navy a small remote-controlled helicopter for the purpose of combating the growing Soviet submarine threat. This was the first ever free flight of a completely unmanned helicopter. The helicopter was radio-controlled and was launched from a destroyer to attack submarines so the ship itself would not have to come within range of the target. The production version, the QH-50, was armed with two Mark 44 acoustic homing torpedoes. After it was launched it was to be tracked by radar from its ship and guided by signals to the enemy submarine which was detected by sonar. It would then launch its torpedoes and fly back to the ship for re-use. 750 QH-50's were built in St. James between 1960 and 1968.
Specifications: Rotor Diameter: 20' Length: 12' 11" Engine: 290 hp Boeing T-50 Turbine Top Speed: 92 mph Weight: 1754 lbs."
http://www.scripophily.net/gyrcomofamin.html

"1959 to 1960 - The first unmanned helicopter flight in history occurs on August 12, 1960, under a Navy contract to Gyrodyne using a unmanned rotorcycle, designated DSN-1. Later the aircraft would be designated the QH-50A. 350 flight hours are accumulated during trials.January 25, 1962 - First Flight of the pure drone QH-50C at NATC, Patuxent River, Maryland.July 18, 1962 - Successful completion of Demonstration Program of QH-50C Drone. By September 4, 1962 the successful completion of Initial Trials Phase of Board of Inspection and Survey Trials had also been accomplished at NATC, Patuxent River, Maryland. November 15, 1962 - Initial production delivery of QH-50C drones commences.January 7, 1963 - The USS Buck (DD 761) while operating off San Clemente Island, California, completed Ships Qualification Trials and became the first United States warship to receive operational drone helicopters, which were delivered by flying them from the Island out to ship......"
http://www.gyrodynehelicopters.com/milestones.htm

 

[EnigmaNZ]

Ah gf, the RMX

http://www.yamaha-motor.co.jp/global/business/sky/history/rmax/index.html
http://www.livingroom.org.au/uavblog/archives/yamaha_rmax.php
http://www.strikenet.js.mil/uavairshow/rmax.html
http://www.scalehelis.com/flyin/rmax/rmax.html

enjoy

 

[gf0012-aust]

Ah gf, the RMX


enjoy

thx for that. I saw a revised model last year. It was fitted out with a revised carbon fibre body - very black and sinister looking. It was fitted out with new lightweight cameras and seekers.

very "bladerunner'ish"

 

[MattChave]

I don't think that the New Zealand Defence Force would pursue a UAV project under the current Labour government. The NZDF is already committed to a large capital investment program and might not be able to afford such a capability because of political sensitivity to anything defence related over here...

PS. Before we even think about getting unmanned helis we need new transport helicopters...

UAV's may not be as expensive as the americans make them out to be. Case in point http://uav.bravehost.com a New Zealand made UAV open source project.

 

[gf0012-aust]

UAV's may not be as expensive as the americans make them out to be. Case in point http://uav.bravehost.com a New Zealand made UAV open source project.

but that is the issue - military platforms have different requirements - and military platforms certainly don't want open source flight control systems.

the whole issue of UAV's is protection of the platform from external comms hijacking. Open source makes that much more difficult to protect.

it's a good example of how low cost solutions can be established - but its not an argument in support of why mil (or american UAV's) are expensive.

 

[MattChave]

but that is the issue - military platforms have different requirements - and military platforms certainly don't want open source flight control systems.

the whole issue of UAV's is protection of the platform from external comms hijacking. Open source makes that much more difficult to protect.

it's a good example of how low cost solutions can be established - but its not an argument in support of why mil (or american UAV's) are expensive.

Telemetry information is reasonably easily encoded using schemes which the military already posses, the only reason your argument could be valid is if the uav is downed and picked up by someone else, in which case some counter measure for this could be built in.

The uav can still be used by a government if its open source they dont have to release their work unless they want to publish it, ie if they only use it internally. therefore their upgrades/telemetry/board designs/control algorythms, whatever, can remain completely secure.

AFAIK the standard military requirement is that it cannot rely on GPS, this doesn't.

Military UAV's are expensive becuase we are led to believe that this is a hard thing to do.....its not really. The're also expensive because of their reliability requirements, personel, and their engines which cost a lot.

"the whole issue of UAV's is protection of the platform from external comms hijacking"
Even encryption schemes such as "public key encryption" transmitted using frequency agile communications such as CDMA are very secure and widely used, one thing that could be used against it i guess would be jamming the entire band but its pretty difficult to jam an aircrafts transmissions. this can be implemented easily with OTS components.... not convinced go check out GPRS modems $200.