What are you basing your opposition to C-DOME on? It's a system, not just a SAM.
Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates 2.0
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Redlands18
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One major drawback with fitting the C-Dome on the Arafura, is you are giving up the flight deck to do so, reducing the Arafura's ability to conduct operations only to what can be fitted underneath the flight deck or between the Bridge and the funnel. The inability to operate UAVs is going to significantly reduce the Arafura's already pretty limited wartime usefulness.
And that they are needed now.
Complete the current 6, get them in service.
If it comes to it, retire or re-role them at a later point.
The best element of the DSR was the prioritisation wrt time. Any alternative to the Arafura will take time to select and put into place - and given what is being asked of the alternative that is likely to be a GP frigate north of 4000t at least.
Regards,
Massive
The system could be excellent but without a SAM good enough to actually intercept the likely threats or at least CEC to cue more capable SAMs then I hardly see how it's worth the cost of adding another missile to the RAN's logistical plate.
Assuming of course this report is true, the prospect of an anti-ship missile slamming into the side of the vessel is going to significantly reduce it’s ability to conduct operations as well, which I think might be the point…
If the report is true that RAN are in active discussions about acquiring this system for use on the Arafura class, I hardly think they would be, if they deemed the system ‘not up to scratch’…
Somewhere around 90% of all naval ships in the world, aren’t equipped with CEC, yet navies still deem them worthwhile…
Adding missiles to the ADF’s plate, doesn’t seem to be the issue it once was, pre-DSR…
FYI, the entire ANZAC Class is not equipped with CEC...
C-dome may not be the flashiest system around but it does have 2 things going for it: 1. It's cheap (at least the interceptors are) 2. It's the most combat tested system on earth.
According to this article it was tested on missiles for the Israeli navy but no video.
However, I note that according to rafael it relies on the ships standard surveillance radar for acquisition. Not sure that a scanter 6002 is going to be up to the task?
According to this article it was tested on missiles for the Israeli navy but no video.
However, I note that according to rafael it relies on the ships standard surveillance radar for acquisition. Not sure that a scanter 6002 is going to be up to the task?
I am well aware of the fact that the majority of warships lack CEC including the Anzacs. My point was that I do not believe that the Tamir interceptor is capable of engaging sea skimmers and/or manoeuvring threats and aside from that the only other way the C-DOME system could really be of use against those threats is by having the ability to cue more capable SAMs from other ships. I do not see how this minimal defensive capability is worth spending money on, particularly when there are outright better systems for the same role on the market.
If the RAN knows something I don't about Tamir's capability then I'm completely ok with them procuring it. But until I see a further indication of this than just the fact that it's being discussed, I will remain unconvinced of the capability benefit of acquiring C-DOME.
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This system looks to provide complementary capability to the ADFs existing systems, i.e. the ADF currently has no hard kill C-RAM capability.
It appears it can also do pretty much the same job as the original ESSM, which is being replaced by the more capable block II. Possibly it could also replace Phalanx.
It appears it can also do pretty much the same job as the original ESSM, which is being replaced by the more capable block II. Possibly it could also replace Phalanx.
As far as I'm concerned C-DOME fits into the same role as Phalanx, that being the hard kill C-RAM role.
In my opinion this would take away from its capability in its actual role as an OPV. SeaRAM could instead be placed on the stern end of the helideck and something like Mk110 or GDM-008 could then be put on the focsle. Thus providing CIWS, C-RAM, missile PD and C-UAS capability.
As to that, who besides the Israeli Navy and possibly the RAN could say? The Israeli navy has of course recent operational experience of being fired upon by modern anti-ship missiles and they have selected C-Dome as their point defence weapon system of choice, in preference to systems such as SeaRAM for both their SA’AR 6 class and their future Reshef class FAC’s.
RAN of course has also had plenty of time to consider SeaRAM etc and hasn’t showed the slightest interest in it, on the current or future fleet.
Time will tell if this has legs, but it seems far too early to make such a call. Particular given the Israeli Navy in November 2022 reported C-Dome had successfully intercepted anti-ship cruise missiles in operational firings aboard it’s SA’AR 6 vessels.
I noticed MRF frigate(export) is back up on NVL group(Lurssen) website, don’t think it was there last few times I had a look. Was a concept 10 or so years ago. Same size as the current anzacs, not much info though on the current design.
Concept back in the day had 2 forward/aft vls modules, 5-6,000 nm range, 28knts, helicopter deck, drone deck, 2 rear hatches left/right for container modules, central hatch with ramp for usvs or rhibs Etc etc,The concept though at one stage had water jet propulsion that later changed to pods, now possibly different again.
Frigates - Naval vessels | NVL
NVL Frigates are powerful, reliable and versatile in warfare areas.
pic from the website…
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If you were going to fit C-Dome why wouldn’t you modify the forward end of the flight deck to takes it on two deck where there is already space reserved for containers, and integrate the control system with the rest of the sensors and CMS? The design shown looks like somebody has spent about 5 minutes with photoshop!
Makes no sense to fit any of this stuff to the OPV's.
They are very much the wrong ships to do this to. Even if you wanted to fit them to something, lurrsen/NVL has the MMPV90, which at 10m larger a much more capable platform, being some 500t larger and could embark things like VL sam, CIWS, antiship missiles, and a proper main gun, combat style radar, etc.
We made the very specific and active decision to build ships that cannot, ever, fit any of these capabilities. Despite something like the MMPV90 costing basically nothing more in build/procurement cost and essential no extra crewing unless we wanted to fit these extra systems. Not only that we didn't spec fitout for any further upgrades, least powerful engines etc. So low spec we are building them without a main gun.
I will say it. Corvettes are impossible and will never ever happen.
We had our chance to build 20 off shore corvettes. We blew it. They didn't have to be fitted with weapons, but they could have had space/power/weight available or a mix of fit out. It wouldn't have costed any more or taken anymore time. In fact it would be have been a more straight forward project because the weapons we now want would have been already integrated on the platform. The Bulgarians are building them right now. Mind you the Bulgarians are doing this at a yard that has never built a navy ship before. They even are using saabs 9lv combat system.
www.navalnews.com
So unless we sinkex the entire Arafura class, and start again none of this is going to happen. If it ever does, that is even worse, because clearly, its a stupid idea that is tactically bad, take away from one of the primary capabilities of the OPV's situational awareness with no more drones or helicopters. Sitting ducks. What is Cdome going to do? Against the Chinese? A more than peer capability. It might make them more relevant against high end pirates in SEA, where our OPV's won't be able to function as the pirates have more capable ships and weapons.
If we wanted a multirole OPV with light combat capability we could have had one with 9vl/CMS330, ESSM/MiCA/CAMM, NSM, 76mm, CIWS, and small ceafar2/girraff, hull mounted sonar etc. Integrated into the platform. It would have costed us a total of 500t of steel and the labor to shape and weld it. We could have had this capability on top of pretty reasonable OPV capability, everything the Arafura/Darrsulum class can do. We could have crewed 20 of them. We could have afforded to build them, we would have already been 7-10 ships into that build.
We specifically, choose not to. Damen and Fassmer were surprised we decided to go with such a low end capability, their bids were more capable. Even if you had no intention of fitting those weapons, that extra length would have been a rounding error in terms of costs. The platform we selected cannot have these capabilities put onto it. Further, we have modified them so they cannot be armed even to the extent Brunei has.
They are very much the wrong ships to do this to. Even if you wanted to fit them to something, lurrsen/NVL has the MMPV90, which at 10m larger a much more capable platform, being some 500t larger and could embark things like VL sam, CIWS, antiship missiles, and a proper main gun, combat style radar, etc.
We made the very specific and active decision to build ships that cannot, ever, fit any of these capabilities. Despite something like the MMPV90 costing basically nothing more in build/procurement cost and essential no extra crewing unless we wanted to fit these extra systems. Not only that we didn't spec fitout for any further upgrades, least powerful engines etc. So low spec we are building them without a main gun.
I will say it. Corvettes are impossible and will never ever happen.
We had our chance to build 20 off shore corvettes. We blew it. They didn't have to be fitted with weapons, but they could have had space/power/weight available or a mix of fit out. It wouldn't have costed any more or taken anymore time. In fact it would be have been a more straight forward project because the weapons we now want would have been already integrated on the platform. The Bulgarians are building them right now. Mind you the Bulgarians are doing this at a yard that has never built a navy ship before. They even are using saabs 9lv combat system.
NVL Group lays keel of 1st Corvette for the Bulgarian Navy - Naval News
German shipbuilder NVL Group laid the keel of the first of two corvettes for the Bulgarian Navy in Varna, Bulgaria on June 17, 2022.
www.navalnews.com
So unless we sinkex the entire Arafura class, and start again none of this is going to happen. If it ever does, that is even worse, because clearly, its a stupid idea that is tactically bad, take away from one of the primary capabilities of the OPV's situational awareness with no more drones or helicopters. Sitting ducks. What is Cdome going to do? Against the Chinese? A more than peer capability. It might make them more relevant against high end pirates in SEA, where our OPV's won't be able to function as the pirates have more capable ships and weapons.
If we wanted a multirole OPV with light combat capability we could have had one with 9vl/CMS330, ESSM/MiCA/CAMM, NSM, 76mm, CIWS, and small ceafar2/girraff, hull mounted sonar etc. Integrated into the platform. It would have costed us a total of 500t of steel and the labor to shape and weld it. We could have had this capability on top of pretty reasonable OPV capability, everything the Arafura/Darrsulum class can do. We could have crewed 20 of them. We could have afforded to build them, we would have already been 7-10 ships into that build.
We specifically, choose not to. Damen and Fassmer were surprised we decided to go with such a low end capability, their bids were more capable. Even if you had no intention of fitting those weapons, that extra length would have been a rounding error in terms of costs. The platform we selected cannot have these capabilities put onto it. Further, we have modified them so they cannot be armed even to the extent Brunei has.
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Fair enough, we'll have to wait and see as always.
Because as opposed to any other type or class of ship, it’s what we have. Would you rather have 11x missile armed ships and 12x virtually unarmed ships or 23x missile armed ships, knowing full well of course that 12x of them may well be armed to a degree but are still well short of the capability you’d choose if not politically hamstrung?Makes no sense to fit any of this stuff to the OPV's.
They are very much the wrong ships to do this to. Even if you wanted to fit them to something, lurrsen/NVL has the MMPV90, which at 10m larger a much more capable platform, being some 500t larger and could embark things like VL sam, CIWS, antiship missiles, and a proper main gun, combat style radar, etc.
We made the very specific and active decision to build ships that cannot, ever, fit any of these capabilities. Despite something like the MMPV90 costing basically nothing more in build/procurement cost and essential no extra crewing unless we wanted to fit these extra systems. Not only that we didn't spec fitout for any further upgrades, least powerful engines etc. So low spec we are building them without a main gun.
I will say it. Corvettes are impossible and will never ever happen.
We had our chance to build 20 off shore corvettes. We blew it. They didn't have to be fitted with weapons, but they could have had space/power/weight available or a mix of fit out. It wouldn't have costed any more or taken anymore time. In fact it would be have been a more straight forward project because the weapons we now want would have been already integrated on the platform. The Bulgarians are building them right now. Mind you the Bulgarians are doing this at a yard that has never built a navy ship before. They even are using saabs 9lv combat system.
NVL Group lays keel of 1st Corvette for the Bulgarian Navy - Naval News
German shipbuilder NVL Group laid the keel of the first of two corvettes for the Bulgarian Navy in Varna, Bulgaria on June 17, 2022.
So unless we sinkex the entire Arafura class, and start again none of this is going to happen. If it ever does, that is even worse, because clearly, its a stupid idea that is tactically bad, take away from one of the primary capabilities of the OPV's situational awareness with no more drones or helicopters. Sitting ducks. What is Cdome going to do? Against the Chinese? A more than peer capability. It might make them more relevant against high end pirates in SEA, where our OPV's won't be able to function as the pirates have more capable ships and weapons.
If we wanted a multirole OPV with light combat capability we could have had one with 9vl/CMS330, ESSM/MiCA/CAMM, NSM, 76mm, CIWS, and small ceafar2/girraff, hull mounted sonar etc. Integrated into the platform. It would have costed us a total of 500t of steel and the labor to shape and weld it. We could have had this capability on top of pretty reasonable OPV capability, everything the Arafura/Darrsulum class can do. We could have crewed 20 of them. We could have afforded to build them, we would have already been 7-10 ships into that build.
We specifically, choose not to. Damen and Fassmer were surprised we decided to go with such a low end capability, their bids were more capable. Even if you had no intention of fitting those weapons, that extra length would have been a rounding error in terms of costs. The platform we selected cannot have these capabilities put onto it. Further, we have modified them so they cannot be armed even to the extent Brunei has.
For some reason it took a DSR to remind our imbecilic politicians ‘you fight with what you have’ regardless of any other solution which might be far more applicable to a given set of scenarios.
The fact that RAN (and ADF more broadly) has to resort to such measures to get the basic building blocks of capability approved by our idiotic political class is a national disgrace and I hope it doesn’t cost us dearly.
OPV was a mistake but moving on
I think this is more about having atleast some capability in the next 3-6 years. None of these new systems are fused with the ship. I can see them going back to intended role or BF once we build or purchase a minimum of 6 corvettes/gp frigates. What other interim solution could you have? steel could be cut for a new ship late this year after review or early next year if they cancel 7-12 Arafura and instead build another ship design from nvl group/luerssen. A first of class could enter in 2026. To get back on or close to the schedule of 12 opvs by 2030, get one of the many German yards to build 3 ships. (Braunschweig batch 2-3/Saar 6/MMPV 90/MRF 120) look to be tier 2 options.
I think this is more about having atleast some capability in the next 3-6 years. None of these new systems are fused with the ship. I can see them going back to intended role or BF once we build or purchase a minimum of 6 corvettes/gp frigates. What other interim solution could you have? steel could be cut for a new ship late this year after review or early next year if they cancel 7-12 Arafura and instead build another ship design from nvl group/luerssen. A first of class could enter in 2026. To get back on or close to the schedule of 12 opvs by 2030, get one of the many German yards to build 3 ships. (Braunschweig batch 2-3/Saar 6/MMPV 90/MRF 120) look to be tier 2 options.