Italian Army discussion and Update

[JFoulke]

Hi guys,
I know that it’s a little bit strange to talk about the Army in this topic because it’s mainly focused on the Navy, but anyway I would like to discuss about the new vehicles of the Italian Army:
1- C2 Ariete MBT: it would be an upgrade of the C1 that would feature better survivability, handling and and combat systems, this project has been already approved and financed by the parliament and the Prototype is in the working.
2- Centauro B2: it is an upgrade with a new gun, armor, better handling and combat systems.
This project has been already financed and approved and the prototype is in testing.
3-AH249 Mangusta II: it is and upgrade of the AW129 to feature better top speed and range, better resistance to extreme temperatures, sand, snow and sea corrosion (for use by the LHD), it will feature also a reduce emission of infrared signals.
This project is already approved and financed and the prototype is into working.
4- Lince NEC: it’s a normal Lince but with Network capabilities.

(There is also the Dardo II, but it still hasn’t been financed by the parliament)

A friend of mine made a video about this topic showing some more info about these vehicles.
If you take a look it would be appreciated.

 

[JFoulke]

Hi everybody,

There are still some Italian army project and vehicles that hasn’t still being brought up in this forum, for example a new version of the Lince is on the working and by 2019 will replace the older version, the new VTLM will be higher, larger, with an improved and more powerfull engine and more havely armored.

A new Version of IFV called Dardo 2 is in working and development and should enter service in 2020.


The creation of 630 new Freccia 2 medium fighting vehicle that should be all delivered by 2030 with a new 30 mmgun and better protection


The new Medium tactical multirole Vehicle Orso is beginning to be delivered by 2018, the plan is of getting a total of 633.

The roles that this vehicle can be used on is Advanced Combat Engeneer Reconessance Team carrier, Explosives Ordinance Disposal, Electronic Warfare, Comunication, Logistic Support, Ambulance and pulling light artilliery.


A friend of mine has made this video talking about these vehicles and projects.

 

[JFoulke]

Hi everybody,

There are some smaller news about the vehicles for the Army and the Air Force.

—

There are some news about the P2HH UAV.

First of all the wings will be enlarged, the wingspan will increase.

The empennage structure will keep the same shape but will be enlarged and also reinforced.

At the end of the wings will be added new composite winglets.

Obviously also the landing gear will be reinforced in order to resist the landing with more weight.

—

A new machine will take the place of the older Defender 90 as light vehicle for the 9th regiment Col Moschin.

The new vehicle is the Flyer 72 GMV for a total of 9 units (with 18 more in option).

On top of the chassis can be mounted a wide variety of weapons.

Additional machine guns can be mounted on the lateral doors.

The vehicle can be carried and lunched by C130J, C27J planes and CH47F helicopters.

—

There are some news on the FRECCIA II, the chassis will be heavily V shaped to protect it more from IED explosives.

There are also some news about the Ariete II, the protection against IED and mines will be improved with new 26 composites plaques.

Also the tracks will be changed and improved to get better grip and overall performance on all terrains.



All the info are taken from the June number of RID RID Portale Difesa

and the youtube channel Daily Battlefield

Daily Battlefields

 

[JFoulke]

The ACV 1.1, an amphibious combat vehicle developed by Iveco and BAE Systems that has been awarded the contract for the United States Marine Corps.

The vehicle is an 8x8 wheeled vehicle with a top speed of 105 km/h on land and 10 on water.

The vehicle can be air transported by C130 or A400M airplanes.

The protection of the vehicle is the highest on it's class, with high hardness steel monocoque that ia able to protect the crew from the explosion of artillery shell, landmines, IED and small arms fire.

The vehicle is also protected with a NBC System and automatic fire suppression system.

The ACV1.1 can be fitted with remote weapons systems up to 40mm.

It can carry between 10 and 12 troops.

The US Marine Corps awarded the project a 400 million dollars contract for the first 4 years to build 30 vehicles with an option for 204 more units.

The Italian FPM units (force projection from the sea: San Marco, Lagunari & supports) has a long-term planning to buy 74 + 74 of these units.

 

[JFoulke]

Hi everybody, there are some news of the Centauro II, the Freccia EVO and the Ariete MLU.

Centauro II
The first prototype of the Centauro II is already completed and 7 more will be the pre series.
Other than the upgrade mentioned in my previous video, the remote HITROLE turret will be moved a little bit further to grant a better view for the tank commander.
After the testing and homologation, the series production will start for a total of 136 total units.

FRECCIA EVO
The FRECCIA EVO will use the new turbodiesel Vector V8 engine and completely new ballistic and anti-mine protection.
The turret will be also changed to accommodate the new 30 mm gun with external alimentation.
The gun will feature a new optic stabilization systems that should be the most advanced seen on an IFV till today.

ARIETE MLU
Unfortunately, for the Italian MBT, some rumors about the implementation of a new engine has been proved wrong.
Instead there is the possibility to upgrade the current one, the output probably will pass from 1.300 hp to around 1.450 hp.
A new system for the rotation of the turret will be introduced getting from an hydraulic to an electric system.
There will be also and upgrade for the fire control software. The new anti-mine protection is undergoing the testing to receive it’s homologation.

(All of the news are taken from RID August 2018)

 

[SolarisKenzo]

671 new VTLM Lince 2 for the Italian MoD.

Acquisto di 671 VTLM Lince 2 per l'Esercito Italiano

Avviata la procedura di acquisto di 671 Veicoli Tattici Leggeri Mutiruolo (VTLM) "Lince 2" in cinque configurazioni per l'Esercito Italiano

aresdifesa.it

 

[SolarisKenzo]

On the 31st of January, a meeting between the Italian and the swedish defense delegations occured.
Of the many topics, Its very interesting to report that they discussed:
- joint procurement at EU level
- bilateral programs
- industrial cooperation
But most importantly :
- " Italian and Sweden discussed European programs such as the MGCS ( Main Ground Combat System ) and the MATV ( Multirole all terrain vehicle ).

Its interesting because neither Italy or Sweden ever confirmed their participation in the MGCS program.
Since you usually dont discuss and then report It as one of the main topics, a program you are not part of, Is this some sort of indirect confirmation?

Bilaterale Italia-Svezia a Palazzo Guidoni

Al centro dei colloqui diverse possibili collaborazioni tra Italia e Svezia nei domini navale, terrestre, aereo e spaziale

aresdifesa.it

 

[Meriv90]

Or a "let us in" or we do GCAP bis?

 

[harms]

Hello. Do you know if Italy will be donating their Leo 1s to Ukraine?
Sems like they tried to sell some not too long ago...

Stored Italian Leopard 1A5s await their fate after a failed deal

A failed deal between Italy and a South American customer left dozens of Leopard 1A5 tanks in Italy. They are located in Lenta, province of Vercelli - sources.

bulgarianmilitary.com

 

[SolarisKenzo]

Italian MoD is always extremely shady, however I can give you some known infos about the former EI Leopards.
An unknown number of Leo 1A5s was moved from Lenta, VC ( an Italian army Depot ) to Goriziane Spa in Villesse ( a private company near Gorizia ) some years ago.
The tanks were supposed to be updated and undergo major maintenance.
Then, no more information were released by the company or the Italian MoD, and the actual numbers were never announced too.

By reading some third parts documents and later infos from the Company, the tanks were to be sold to a south American company.
The deal never happened and the tanks were then, at least according to some rumors, sold to RUAG, which bought them and left them in Italy.
80-100 is the likely amount of tanks.

Some had major works, for example this one. MRO Leopard - Goriziane


But nothing sure even about who owns the tanks, so I seriously doubt we will see any official Italian announcement about them

 

[SolarisKenzo]

As I did in the Navy 3d, I'll do a brief recap ,for those who are interested in italian defense matters, of the Parliamentary hearing that took place this week about the Italian Army, lead by Gen. Serino ( chief of staff of the army ).

Main points:
- Army average age is high compared to NATO allies and there is a need for more turnover.
- Small space for training in Italy, so the army is required to use foreign training facilities such as the french, greek or qatari ones.
- Vehicles are old and needs to be replaced.

Some key points that the General pointed out about the vehicles:
- 125 Ariete MBTs will be updated
- if possible, 125 new MBTs will be aquired. From what he was allowed to say, their choice is the Leopard 2a7 and they are only waiting for the government approval to buy them. ( not sure the Gov will allow the purchase, at all )
- the VCC80 Dardo IFVs can't be updated and need a replacement ASAP. The request is for 570 new IFVs, and they are evaluating KF41 Lynx and CV90s. The IFVs, whatever the choice, are to be built under license.
However, since this is a urgent requirement, as soon as the MoD confirms the choice, they will buy a first tranche of vehicles directly from the producer.
- Evaluation is undergoing regarding new MLRS, and the M270s fleet will be updated in the US ( already confirmed ) to the latest standard.

link:

 

[harms]

I was kind of expecting more from the latest Italian aid package to Ukraine. No Centauros, no Freccias or Dardo, no Leopard 1s or Arietes. Air defense was nice.

 

[SolarisKenzo]

Italian MoD confirmed they are currently evaluating all possible options to get new GAP FILLERS MBT and IFV, the most likely options as reported by the National Director of Armaments are respectively Leopard 2s and CV90s

They also said that a choice will be made very soon.

@SolarisKenzo Source please. You have been on here long enough to know the rules.

Ngatimozart.

 

[SolarisKenzo]

I'm sorry I really thought I linked the source...my bad.

evento | WebTV

webtv.camera.it

 

[SolarisKenzo]

As the time for an actual choice on the future of italian armoured forces is getting closer, the situation is getting more and more complex.
A brief recap:
- The Army asked to replace the current italian-built fleet of C1 Ariete MBTs and Dardo IFVs.
- Army's choice is to buy newly built Leopard 2a7s from KMW and to produce under license either the KF41 Lynx or a new variant of the CV90s, and in the meanwhile buy a small quantity of the currently available versions as a Gap Filler.

However, the italian Parliament will have to make a choice soon, and the national industry ( Leonardo and Iveco-Oto Melara ) are putting huge pressure on the politicians, saying that it is a duty of the Parliament to choose an italian-built vehicle.
The Army's response was that there are NO decent italian-built vehicles currently available, and that buying from an italian company would be nothing more that State-Aid to make unions happy.

To complicate the situation even more, Rheinmetall sent an offer to buy Oto Melara ( initially 49% ), currently owned by Leonardo, saying that if the offer will be accepted they will create a new production line for KF-41 Lynx in Italy, including Leonardo in the vehicle customization.

The situation is now getting more and more complicated and, whatever the choice will be, someone will not be pleased.
The question is: Will politicians listen to the Army and their need for a capable armoured fleet, or will they spend State money to make unions happy ?
Will we see a Leasing of Abrams tanks instead?
I am deeply concerned about this situation...

Italy considers the procurement of 250 Leopard 2A7 tanks

Italy intends to procure 250 Leopard 2A7 main battle tanks produced by German defence company Krauss-Maffei Wegmann (KMW).

defence-industry.eu

Antsy about its aging tanks, Italy is mulling a rush purchase

The move could entail a lease of German-made Leopard tanks from allied nations.

www.defensenews.com

 

[ngatimozart]

As the time for an actual choice on the future of italian armoured forces is getting closer, the situation is getting more and more complex.
A brief recap:
- The Army asked to replace the current italian-built fleet of C1 Ariete MBTs and Dardo IFVs.
- Army's choice is to buy newly built Leopard 2a7s from KMW and to produce under license either the KF41 Lynx or a new variant of the CV90s, and in the meanwhile buy a small quantity of the currently available versions as a Gap Filler.

However, the italian Parliament will have to make a choice soon, and the national industry ( Leonardo and Iveco-Oto Melara ) are putting huge pressure on the politicians, saying that it is a duty of the Parliament to choose an italian-built vehicle.
The Army's response was that there are NO decent italian-built vehicles currently available, and that buying from an italian company would be nothing more that State-Aid to make unions happy.

To complicate the situation even more, Rheinmetall sent an offer to buy Oto Melara ( initially 49% ), currently owned by Leonardo, saying that if the offer will be accepted they will create a new production line for KF-41 Lynx in Italy, including Leonardo in the vehicle customization.

The situation is now getting more and more complicated and, whatever the choice will be, someone will not be pleased.
The question is: Will politicians listen to the Army and their need for a capable armoured fleet, or will they spend State money to make unions happy ?
Will we see a Leasing of Abrams tanks instead?
I am deeply concerned about this situation...

Italy considers the procurement of 250 Leopard 2A7 tanks

Italy intends to procure 250 Leopard 2A7 main battle tanks produced by German defence company Krauss-Maffei Wegmann (KMW).

defence-industry.eu

Antsy about its aging tanks, Italy is mulling a rush purchase

The move could entail a lease of German-made Leopard tanks from allied nations.

www.defensenews.com

Italy may consider Leonardo and Iveco-Oto Melara as being significant national assets and sovereign capabilities. If the companies cannot provide the required design quality, then maybe they could build the desired capability under licence. That's what Australia is doing especially WRT it's tracked and wheeled IFVs, SPG/H, missile and ammunition production.

 

[SolarisKenzo]

Italy may consider Leonardo and Iveco-Oto Melara as being significant national assets and sovereign capabilities. If the companies cannot provide the required design quality, then maybe they could build the desired capability under licence. That's what Australia is doing especially WRT it's tracked and wheeled IFVs, SPG/H, missile and ammunition production.

As I said, Rheinmetall offered the license production of its kf41 Lynx.
But they want 49% of OTO MELARA.

I'd sell OTO right now if I was the defence minister, but I understand there are political needs and the complexity of the situation is probably out of my reach.

Anyway, let's see how it goes.
A new IFV and a new MBT are not discussion.
The problem is: which ones?

 

[SolarisKenzo]

From the new official "Italian Army Report", available on the Italian Defense ministry website.

Ariete AMV or C2 Ariete:


The new IFV program, no official choice yet.
But they use a fk41 lynx pic.



We also have news about the possible Leopard 2 deal.
Italian Defence Minister Crosetto was in Germany a couple of days ago.
Many sources reported that Italy is actually working to buy an undisclosed number of Leopard 2 A7/A8.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1658400962078298112

 

[SolarisKenzo]

Yesterday was the Italian Republic Day, the birthday of the Republic after the referendum that in 1946 forced the Royal Family to leave Italy.
Just like every year, a military parade was held in Rome.
Here is the link to the video of the parade:

Viva la Repubblica!

 

[SolarisKenzo]

Many news this week regarding Italian armed forces.
Speculations ( but NO official statements ) about undergoing negotiations between Italy and Germany to open a Leopard 2 production line in Italy. Unclear whether these new tanks will replace ( unlikely ) or operate side by side ( more likely ) with the 125 Ariete C2 modernized ( program currently going according to schedule ).
125-200 tanks + special versions are the most probable numbers.

here the original italian source:

RID Rivista Italiana Difesa - LEOPARD 2 per l’Italia, quali scelte fare?

LEOPARD 2 per l’Italia, quali scelte fare?

www.rid.it

Here an english one:

Italy begins negotiations to buy new Leopard 2 tanks

Italy is negotiating a purchase of new Leopard 2 main battle tanks from Germany. Italian Defense magazine RID (Rivista Italiana Difesa) was the first to report on the negotiation for the procurement of an undisclosed number of Leopard tanks in 2A7 or 2A8 configuration. According to RID, a deal...

defence-blog.com

I won't say anything, don't like to say pure speculations.
This situation is, however, the result of 20 years of armoured forces heavy underfunding.