Japanese Maritime Self Defense Force Thread

[Toptob]

What a bizarre concept! 20000 tonnes ship with about a hundred VLS and a little over a hundred crew?!? What is it supposed to do? Yeah I know BMD, but what else? It doesn't look to have extra big.... well anything else! The aviation facilities look normal, and what would they even be for? And how would such a small crew ever successfully perform damage control on something that enormous?

And why would it even need to be this large when it's seemingly not going to perform any mission other than anti air/BMD patrol? So is it meant for extended patrols and they need the space for lots of fuel next to those personal cabins? But the missiles they would be defending against would put them in the yellow sea and sea of Japan so not exactly far from home...

What a confusing program, at this point they might as well convert an old ferry or something. They seem to be in a hurry anyway, but if they pull off that time schedule it would show that you don't need decades to deliver results in a ship program. Maybe some European countries could learn something :|

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

The Aegis Ashore system seems to be very large and heavy, but indeed a 20.000 ton cruiser is perhaps unnecessary huge. I wonder if an enlarged Maya Class destroyer design will be sufficiently. If it is then using this enlarged design will undoubtly shorten the construction time and decrease the costs.
And the target is to get these cruisers before the end of 2028, i think even for Japanese standards this is too optimistic.

 

[StingrayOZ]

A few points.

Sm3 is now pretty much maxed out in terms of kinetic capability. If you want a more kinetically capable missile, the dimensions of the vls will have to increase, mostly in length requiring larger ships. Which is likely to happen, but it isn't exactly clear what size is required.

Habability will be important for this class, and the ability to be basically continuously deployed requires multiple redundant systems that can be serviced in place.

They will absolutely have to both be operational by 2028, if not earlier. Work force and equipment from other projects will be diverted to this if required. I expect the first ship to be in the water by 2027. So it is in fact a bigger mountain to climb.

 

[76mmGuns]

It's 64 VLS cells, not 100

Japanese MoD Releases New Details on Ballistic Missile Defense Ships - USNI News

The Japanese Ministry of Defense released last week new details on Tokyo’s plan to build two ballistic missile defense warships to counter North Korean missiles. On Dec. 23, the MoD released additional details on the two BMD ships Japan elected to procure after canceling two planned Aegis Ashore...

news.usni.org

That's a lot of ship, for 64 cells. What's the extra size and tonnage for? powerful sensors and larger, powerful engines? Storing supplies for endurance at sea? VLS cells x2 or x3 the size of US missiles? Michelin star restaurant and high end gymnasiums?

 

[Volkodav]

It's 64 VLS cells, not 100

Japanese MoD Releases New Details on Ballistic Missile Defense Ships - USNI News

The Japanese Ministry of Defense released last week new details on Tokyo’s plan to build two ballistic missile defense warships to counter North Korean missiles. On Dec. 23, the MoD released additional details on the two BMD ships Japan elected to procure after canceling two planned Aegis Ashore...

news.usni.org

That's a lot of ship, for 64 cells. What's the extra size and tonnage for? powerful sensors and larger, powerful engines? Storing supplies for endurance at sea? VLS cells x2 or x3 the size of US missiles? Michelin star restaurant and high end gymnasiums?

Cramming a larger land based system on to a ship. Likely also facilitating maintenance and redundancy to increase reliability and availability. I imagine such a ship would also have extensive self protection systems.

Steel is cheap and air is free, these ships are unique and are intended to deliver a specific capability. There is no point penny pinching to save money over an extended build, no need to produce a balanced design, no need to make compromises to make them marginally capable in other roles.

 

[76mmGuns]

Cramming a larger land based system on to a ship. Likely also facilitating maintenance and redundancy to increase reliability and availability. I imagine such a shop would also have extensive self protection systems.

Steel is cheap and air is free, these ships are unique and are intended to deliver a specific capability. There is no point penny pinching to save money over an extended build, no need to produce a balanced design, no need to make compromises to make them marginally capable in other roles.

So, no Michelin star restaurants?

 

[ddxx]

View attachment 49988
This is the picture provided by the Japanese MOD for the ASEV, it looks to be an unusual design, and is not a small ship definitely bigger than a Burke based ship and don't forget the entire crew are getting state rooms and that definitely will drive up the size.

Their intended role is to essentially sit off the coast and provide persistent BMD - freeing up their existing AEGIS fleet for regional deployments.

For that role, their size does make a lot of sense as they’re going to be sitting around for very long periods of time not doing much. So you’re going to want both great living conditions and a huge amount of provisions. This alongside the ability to fit a very powerful radar and *a lot* of missiles results in a very big hull.

Also, it’s a lot more than 64 cells as per the graphic. There’s no quoted number in the official release in Japanese.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Modification work to turn JS Kaga, a helicopter destroyer/carrier of the Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force, into a F-35B aircraft carrier are nearing completion.

The first ship, Izumo, has already completed its first modification in 2021 and has also completed landing and takeoff tests with the US Marine Corps’ F-35B. The modification of Kaga is divided into two phases. In the first phase, the flight deck was coated with a heat-resistant coating, and in the second phase, the shape of the bow section will be modified. The second phase of modification is scheduled to begin in March 2025, with work to be completed by early 2027.

Modification work on JS Kaga nears Completion - Naval News

Modification work to turn Japan's JS Kaga "helicopter destroyer" into a F-35B aircraft carrier are nearing completion at a dock in Kure City.

www.navalnews.com

 

[SolarisKenzo]

I dont understand how can you Say Its 64 VLS cells since 1) no official Number was released, 2) the image shows 6+4 VLS blocks. So probably (6x8)+(4x8).
I dont like large ships like the Kirovs, but I dont also get whats So funny about "Michelin restaurant" onboard.
They Will build the ship they need, big enough to perform Its Mission.

 

[76mmGuns]

I dont understand how can you Say Its 64 VLS cells since 1) no official Number was released, 2) the image shows 6+4 VLS blocks. So probably (6x8)+(4x8).
I dont like large ships like the Kirovs, but I dont also get whats So funny about "Michelin restaurant" onboard.
They Will build the ship they need, big enough to perform Its Mission.

It's in the link I attached from USNI.

 

[ddxx]

It's in the link I attached from USNI.

they published after Naval News and I think they’ve also applied their same incorrect analysis of the graphic.

This is exactly how stupid groupthink and conclusions grip the defence community. One lazy journalist’s mistake and everyone jumps into file behind it.

 

[SolarisKenzo]

Then please let me help you understand why USNI article is trash.
When reading something, you should read also their sources and official links.
Lets start from the beginning

On Dec. 23, the MoD released additional details on the two BMD ships Japan elected to procure after canceling two planned Aegis Ashore BMD batteries, reported Naval News.

If you read Naval News article, you will see that there are many incorrect points that they just copy-pasted.
In particular:

The picture released with the document – the first official one – confirms the ships should have not less than 64 VLS cells – 6×8 VLS on the front deck and 4×8 above the helicopter hangar – to host all those missiles.

Now, I dont have a math degree, but I was able to calculate that ( 6x8)+(4x8) equals 80 VLS cells, not 64.
Apparently USNI cant do simple math. Because they reported that " An image released by the MoD shows a ship with 64 vertical launch cells and a hull form similar to a proposed design for the U.S. Navy’s next-generation DDG(X) surface combatant. "
But lets go on.

The new report from the MoD did not detail the specific dimensions of the proposed ships, but previous reports say the two ships could be as large as 20,000 tons.

So 20k tons is pure speculation.
And I would also like to link an article from the Japan times, released after those articles.

Japan to downsize planned Aegis destroyers to increase mobility

The ships had been planned to have a displacement of about 20,000 tons, almost the same as the MSDF's largest vessel. That could be scaled down to around 8,200 tons.

www.japantimes.co.jp

Can we now agree we are talking about nothing but imagination?

 

[ngatimozart]

Highlights video of the JMSDF 70th Anniversary International Fleet Review. There are some subtitles in English.

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

This is exactly how stupid groupthink and conclusions grip the defence community. One lazy journalist’s mistake and everyone jumps into file behind it.

Agreed. A while ago there were people maintaining that the new ships "had" to be multi-hulled because of the tonnage and an unofficial graphic that had circulated. I tried to point out the graphic was not official because the final specification of the ships hadn't been decided, but some people wouldn't listen.

Until the Japanese MoD publishes the formal and final specifications, there is a lot left to be clarified as to what the ships will look like. People really need to stop jumping on articles as soon as there's any discussion of the design.

 

[Redlands18]

Japan to increase the number of Aegis destroyers - Naval News
Japan looking to build 2 more Aegis destroyers as well as the 2 ASEV BMD Defence ships. Likely to be improved Maya's(Burke derivative) given the time frame of the end of the decade.

 

[Ananda]

Xavier in Japan on DSEI 2023. This video shown Japan MIC tech on USV and surveillance/situational awareness. Basically shown how Japan MIC leverage Japan tech strength on electronics and sensors.

On ships design this video shown of OPV design from JMU, which is subsidiary from IHI (whichnis leading japan maritime heavy industries). Is good to see Japan now increasingly using their leading tech on commercials sectors on their MIC. Design on their hypersonic missile will be interesting answer to catch up with China.

 

[Ananda]

Xavier video on 2nd day of DSEI. Focus more on missiles, domestic (Kawasaki) and imports from Konsberg and Raytheon. Shown further focus from JSDF on having large inventory of missiles array whether SSM or SAM. Last part on Mitsubishi laser weapon aim for UAV protection but I suspect also sea skimming missiles.

 

[Ananda]

3rd day of Xavier report on DSEI. Mostly reporting systems, including AEGIS, unmanned mine hunter systems from Patria, small landing craft that seems gaining interest from JSDF for supplies their small inlets near Chinese border.

Last part seems shown interesting discussion between ShinMeiwa as US2 amphibious aircraft producers with US. This talk seems become alternative then the talk on modification of C-130J for amphibious operations. US2 also use similar engines with C-130J.

ShinMeiwa already try to market US2 for maritime patrol operation with Indonesia and India. Both need long range maritime patrols aircraft, and US2 have advantage on that. However so far no actual contract coming from both potential customers. If ShinMeiwa can get attention from US, this will be huge boosts for other potential export market.

 

[Redlands18]

3rd day of Xavier report on DSEI. Mostly reporting systems, including AEGIS, unmanned mine hunter systems from Patria, small landing craft that seems gaining interest from JSDF for supplies their small inlets near Chinese border.

Last part seems shown interesting discussion between ShinMeiwa as US2 amphibious aircraft producers with US. This talk seems become alternative then the talk on modification of C-130J for amphibious operations. US2 also use similar engines with C-130J.

ShinMeiwa already try to market US2 for maritime patrol operation with Indonesia and India. Both need long range maritime patrols aircraft, and US2 have advantage on that. However so far no actual contract coming from both potential customers. If ShinMeiwa can get attention from US, this will be huge boosts for other potential export market.

The last bit on that Video is very interesting, a picture of an Izumo class Helicopter Carrier with an EMALS launch system, launching a F-35.

 

[Ananda]

Yes, but I do suspect it will not be for Izumo class. They use it as referral only. Izumo already set for F-35B. However this can be a hint that JSDF begin to think more on CATOBAR, as even ROKN across Japan sea already talking on STOBAR concept.

I do hope they call the next CV as Shokaku class. Izumo after last modifications aim for around 40K ton class full weight, which is basically double then previous helicopter carrier Hyuga class. Thus if they decide on next CV for 70K-80K, it will be around French PANG but more importantly similar range of PLAN type 003 carrier that're just launch last year.

Will be interesting if they do that. I'm not sure when the time table even if they do that. However considering Japan conservative approach, I do suspect sometimes in next decade. Unless the development of geopolitical talk otherwise.