Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates 2.0

Morgo

Well-Known Member
A Corvette is going to have a range of capabilities that an OPV never will. Take a look at the K130 seeing as though it was mentioned as a possible in context for the RAN Corvette discussion.

It comes with a combat management system, 3D /4D AESA radar system, active and passive EW / SIGINT, passive starring IRST, EO /IR capabilities, 76mm gun system, a pair of self-defence surface to air missile launchers with 42 missile rounds full integrated into the combat system and cued by radar / IRST, an anti-ship / land attack missile capability again integrated fully into the combat system, a pair of anti-surface auto-cannons, a torpedo decoy system. a mine laying system and aviation facilities for an 11t class maritime helicopter.

Compared to an Arafura with a 57mm gun, there is day and night between the 2 in terms of combat capability.

The K130 however is very short-ranged. If it were imposed upon RAN politically (which I suspect it would have to be) it would likely be used for local patrolling and defensive operations and escort tasks at most.
Maybe I am being dense. I get it that corvettes are more capable than OPVs. What I don't get are what are the situations where this additional combat capability - greater than an OPV but less than an FFG/DDG - is the right answer? Where that capability is not overkill, and also not overmatched, and sufficient to justify a rumoured $6bn price tag?

I don't understand the CONOPS for dealing with grey zone incursions but I would think the OPVs would be sufficient. But I may be wrong.

I would think the logical course of action would be to:
1) Complete the OPV build as planned. Use them as planned to patrol our EEZ. If a Chinese fishing boat or coast guard vessel wants to ram the OPV, put a 57mm sized hole in it. If something that wants to do more than ram shows up, the OPV should phone a friend (DDG / FFG / P-8).
2) Use the extra cash that would have otherwise gone on the corvettes to build more FFGs (accelerate Hunter if possible) or DDGs (call Navantia if their offer is credible) so that the OPV is more likely to have a friend to call when it needs it.

The only way I can see building covettes being an optimal solution would be if:
a) corvettes provide an appropriate amount of capability that an OPV can't in a situation the RAN are likely to face (possibly escort duty or commerce raiding?)
b) we have no options to accelerate the availability of FFGs / DDGs (which doesn't seem to be the case).

So the nub of my question is not what can corvettes do that OPVs can't, it's what are the situations likely to emerge in the next few years where having the additional capability a corvette offers is the right answer?
 

Antipode

Member
There has been a lengthy discussion on spanish sites about up arming the Meteoro class BAM OPVs, not dissimilar to the one around the Arafura class endured here.

Mission conceives the kit, not the other way around. Those vessel’s purpose is to be deployed instead of frigates in places like the Gulf of Guinea or the African horn to fight piracy and police around. They are suposed to bully most lightly armed OPV, stay deployed far from home, deploy its Infantería de Marina team if needed, support a medium helo.

It is a modern, hefty OPV. It can take on a variety of roles, but facing corvettes is not one of them. As a spanish Armada’s officer put it, “if a vessel engages in combat and launches missiles, it needs to be able to manage incoming equivalent ones” (can't find the source, sorry. It was part of a wider interview video)

Nevertheless, the threat posed by pirates and mafias has arguably increased with the affluence of elder missiles and improvised UAVs. It is not just light/medium caliber machine guns and RPGs anymore. There are two improvements that seem sensible and feasible enough, given the modernity of its sensoria and combat management system.

-Air-burst munition for its main gun

-Installation of Escribano M&E proposed TAO or french SIMBAD system, presumably replacing the two BAE Systems 25mm bushmaster automated mounts






4BF60F38-9B87-4F9F-B615-1D917F9BB5FE.jpeg
(EM&E)

This link has some nice pictures of BAM Audaz at a recent NATO exercise in Portugal, Dinamic Messenger 2022.


And a detailed wiev in english

Salud

(Edited couple of typos)
 
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old faithful

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
What's not being spoken about re corvettes, is that I assume the proposal would be build corvettes here in Oz vs build additional AWDs in Spain. With respect to the rules of the forum, the current govt is more likely to go with an Oz build even if that means foregoing capability.
 

25 years on

New Member
Evening all. New member. Long-time observer and onlooker. Enjoy your informed content, robust discussion and good humour. I have no military or connected industry background. Would the Navantia Avante 2000/2200/2400 corvettes be a worthy candidate if the corvette plan comes to fruition? This ship has been around in one guise or another since 2008. Displacement circa 2500t, & circa 3,500 nm-5,000 nautical mile range. The Saudi Navy build includes:

1 × Oto Melara 76 mm ('A' position)
1 × Oerlikon Millennium 35 mm Naval Revolver Gun System
4 × 12.7 mm machine guns
16-cell Mk 41 VLS
64 × RIM-162 ESSM
8 × RGM-84 Harpoon block II anti-ship missiles (Saudi Arabia variant)
2 × 3 torpedo tubes
Armament may or may not reflect RAN needs but demonstrates possibilities
Naval News- Avante 2200 Combatant

1666181665523.png
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
What's not being spoken about re corvettes, is that I assume the proposal would be build corvettes here in Oz vs build additional AWDs in Spain. With respect to the rules of the forum, the current govt is more likely to go with an Oz build even if that means foregoing capability.
I don't see it like that at all.

Rather this "proposal/suggestion/rumour", is about repurposing the steel, systems, production team, contracted organisations, design team, support team, SPO, sustainment organisation, crews etc. already assigned to the OPV project, as well as the additional resources that would be required to up arm the OPVs.

It's not about building corvettes instead of frigates or destroyers, it's not about building locally instead of overseas, it's about the opportunity cost of continuing to build patrol vessels when a growing power has aggressively expanded into our region. The previous government flagged up arming the OPVs as an option, the suggestion has been made that switching from Lurssen built patrol vessels (to be fitted with missiles at a later date), to purpose designed Lurssen built minor warships may be more efficient and deliver more capability for the available resources and time.

The ideal may be a class of patrol or GP frigates to support the Hunters and Hobarts, but that would take time and resources we don't currently have. I would love it if we had built, and continue to build, enhanced Burkes, as Japan and South Korea have, instead of the F-100s, but that didn't happen. I would love it if instead of fluffing around with Japanese, then French Submarines, we had launched AUKUS fifteen years earlier, but we didn't.

It would be great if there had been no shipbuilding blackholes following the ANZACs, Collins, and now the Hobarts, but there were. We are where we are, we have what we have, there are limited options going forward, the worst being to kill local capability in favour of something allegedly better down the road.
 
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Stampede

Well-Known Member
I don't see it like that at all.

Rather this "proposal/suggestion/rumour", is about repurposing the steel, systems, production team, contracted organisations, design team, support team, SPO, sustainment organisation, crews etc. already assigned to the OPV project, as well as the additional resources that would be required to up arm the OPVs.

It's not about building corvettes instead of frigates or destroyers, it's not about building locally instead of overseas, it's about the opportunity cost of continuing to build patrol vessels when a growing power has aggressively expanded into our region. The previous government flagged up arming the OPVs as an option, the suggestion has been made that switching from Lurssen built patrol vessels (to be fitted with missiles at a later date), to purpose designed Lurssen built minor warships may be more efficient and deliver more capability for the available resources and time.

The ideal may be a class of patrol or GP frigates to support the Hunters and Hobarts, but that would take time and resources we don't currently have. I would love it if we had built, and continue to build, enhanced Burkes, as Japan and South Korea have, instead of the F-100s, but that didn't happen. I would love it if instead of fluffing around with Japanese, then French Submarines, we had launched AUKUS fifteen years earlier, but we didn't.

It would be great if there had been no shipbuilding blackholes following the ANZACs, Collins, and now the Hobarts, but there were. We are where we are, we have what we have, there are limited options going forward, the worst being to kill local capability in favour of something allegedly better down the road.
I'd speculate if time is the issue we work with Lurssen modify the existing OPV 80 design or most likely adopt a larger vessel in their range of vessels.
If time is not such an issue skip the middle tier and add to the Hunter Class. Realistically I still don't think that gives us a balanced fleet.
As to additional Hobart's, I feel politically it would not be acceptable to build overseas. A good idea that probably will not eventuate.



Cheers S
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I'd speculate if time is the issue we work with Lurssen modify the existing OPV 80 design or most likely adopt a larger vessel in their range of vessels.
If time is not such an issue skip the middle tier and add to the Hunter Class. Realistically I still don't think that gives us a balanced fleet.
As to additional Hobart's, I feel politically it would not be acceptable to build overseas. A good idea that probably will not eventuate.



Cheers S
Suggested reading for engineers and technical people working in shipbuilding and acquisition.

The Fallacy of Using a Parent Design: "The design is mature" by Robert G. Keane, Jr and Barry F. Tibbitts

Basically you are better going for a new design than adapting an existing design. Even going for a K130 is problematic, but less so than trying to turn an OPV into a Corvette after the fact.
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
Suggested reading for engineers and technical people working in shipbuilding and acquisition.

The Fallacy of Using a Parent Design: "The design is mature" by Robert G. Keane, Jr and Barry F. Tibbitts

Basically you are better going for a new design than adapting an existing design. Even going for a K130 is problematic, but less so than trying to turn an OPV into a Corvette after the fact.
Don't disagree.
Up gunning expectations would be modest.

Main thing for myself would be a true helicopter capability.
Ie, flight deck and hanger for refueling,servicing and arming.
Plus a significant gun upfront.

Probably no SAM or large SSM.

Spike ATGM would be fine.


Cheers S
 

seaspear

Well-Known Member
Is it feasible to have one of the later batches of the Hunter class modified for a heavier air warfare emphasis similar to the Canadian Surface Combatant program whilst increasing the drumbeat of production ,I'm not suggesting three less asw frigates but delaying the final three of such whilst introducing a modified number configured with heavier emphasis on air warfare ,a feasibility program for modifications for a ship that was acclaimed for its ability to be modified should be straight forward, being then made in Australia and being a more modern design than the Hobarts may be an advantage
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Is it feasible to have one of the later batches of the Hunter class modified for a heavier air warfare emphasis similar to the Canadian Surface Combatant program whilst increasing the drumbeat of production ,I'm not suggesting three less asw frigates but delaying the final three of such whilst introducing a modified number configured with heavier emphasis on air warfare ,a feasibility program for modifications for a ship that was acclaimed for its ability to be modified should be straight forward, being then made in Australia and being a more modern design than the Hobarts may be an advantage
Until more if known about the actual configuration of the Hunter-class frigate, this question cannot really be answered. The thinking is that the current config has 32 VLS cells, which might or might not be accurate. Similarly, there might, but again also might not be, space and weight margins available to fit additional VLS or VLS cells.

There is also the potential that the FFG will start with 40 or even 48 VLS cells, which would put it into a similar range as the Hobart-class DDG. The point for now though is that at present both the current design and it's future potential are unknowns, which means what future modifications/improvements are possible is similarly unknown.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Don't disagree.
Up gunning expectations would be modest.

Main thing for myself would be a true helicopter capability.
Ie, flight deck and hanger for refueling,servicing and arming.
Plus a significant gun upfront.

Probably no SAM or large SSM.

Spike ATGM would be fine.


Cheers S
Realistically, introducing any combatant into the RAN which is larger than a small patrol boat without it also having an air defence capability (beyond that of a CIWS) would be a waste of time and resources. If the vessel is large enough to fit a significant gun (76 mm or better?) and viable enough to be sent into areas where a significant gun would be appropriate, then it would also likely be considered a sufficient threat to be targeted by hostile AShM, aircraft, or UAS's. In short, the potential aerial threats would either require an air defence capability, or force the targeted vessel to operate within the air defence umbrella provided by another combatant.

One has to keep in mind that if a vessel could be in a potential situation to use an anti-surface gun or a SSM like one of the various Spike variants (not an ATGM though, since naval vessel vs. tank engagements are always horribly one-sided, one way or another...) then there is a good chance that a comparable weapon could be getting aimed at the RAN vessel.
 

alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Is it feasible to have one of the later batches of the Hunter class modified for a heavier air warfare emphasis similar to the Canadian Surface Combatant program whilst increasing the drumbeat of production ,I'm not suggesting three less asw frigates but delaying the final three of such whilst introducing a modified number configured with heavier emphasis on air warfare ,a feasibility program for modifications for a ship that was acclaimed for its ability to be modified should be straight forward, being then made in Australia and being a more modern design than the Hobarts may be an advantage
From my limited involvement in a propsoed supporting role the Hunters were supposed to grow in capability between batches when originally envisaged. The first batch were to be cookie cutters based on the UK T26 with the CEA Radar suite and (probably) an evolved SAAB 9LV. This would still be an exceptionally capable ASW platform with a very credible AAW capability .... and less risk. The subsequent batches were to grow into the beast we see now as defence decided the risk was worth it.

So yes, the batch process allows for design iteration and increased capability as well as changes to avoid block obsolesence and improvements in systems and equipment.

To date there appears to have been no firm figure on the VLS count but 36 is generally relied upon. We will know once there is definative information on the design.

PS: Sorry Tod .... I see you addressed this.
 

alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Realistically, introducing any combatant into the RAN which is larger than a small patrol boat without it also having an air defence capability (beyond that of a CIWS) would be a waste of time and resources. If the vessel is large enough to fit a significant gun (76 mm or better?) and viable enough to be sent into areas where a significant gun would be appropriate, then it would also likely be considered a sufficient threat to be targeted by hostile AShM, aircraft, or UAS's. In short, the potential aerial threats would either require an air defence capability, or force the targeted vessel to operate within the air defence umbrella provided by another combatant.

One has to keep in mind that if a vessel could be in a potential situation to use an anti-surface gun or a SSM like one of the various Spike variants (not an ATGM though, since naval vessel vs. tank engagements are always horribly one-sided, one way or another...) then there is a good chance that a comparable weapon could be getting aimed at the RAN vessel.
I could no agree more. If you are looking at a desired capability something akin to the current capability of the fully modified ANZAC would apppear to be a reasonable baseline (I have said this quite a bit but don't tire from repeating it).

An uprated OPV or small corvette is going to struggle to do this. And if it does it may come at the cost of something else such as range and redundancy in power generation (noting radars and combat systems can be power hogs and have to be kept fed in addition to fighting and moving). Weight is everything in a vessel design and to pack a lot of weapons on a 2000 tonne hull means something else has to give. Conversely. an OPV with gun and a CIWS with some SSM's is going to need someone to watch over it in a contested environment.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
I guess with any combatant, what is the minimum weapon/self defence system the RAN operates with. ESSM? There is a minimum ship to operate something like that. Even fewer with the system built, engineers and integrated.
Would the Navantia Avante 2000/2200/2400 corvettes be a worthy candidate if the corvette plan comes to fruition?
Any new weapon system would most likely take 5+ years just to acquire.

AFAIK the Navantia Avante isn't built with all of those items installed and integrated in Spanish service and the Saudi spec, why quite high end, isn't in service.

We are now at the stage where if the aim is 2030, basically no new class or type can be included, and its unlikely even a new weapon type not already in train can be bought into service. We can probably bring in ESSMII, NSM and SM-6 because they are already in train, upgrades are already funded, engineering work was most likely designed into deployed platforms and items ordered, training, integrated and scheduled. Something like a F-35 if we wanted a 4th squadron, it is most likely too late now to expect delivery and service before 2030. Windows are closing on other platforms, like P8s etc.

In a ~2 years we won't even be able to schedule orders for existing weapons/systems/platform for deployment before 2030. Forget new ships, planes or gun types. We won't be able to acquire and get significant delivery of ammunition, missiles, etc for weapons we already have. Its like 3-5 years minimum for complex advanced munitions.

We should now be shifting into what munitions we need, away from any new platforms.
 

Going Boeing

Well-Known Member
I don’t want to be accused of speculation but, could the experienced naval professionals on this forum advise if it’s feasible to give the Anzacs a Life of Type Extension (LOTE) and keep them in service to fulfill the Tier 2 duties that these proposed Corvettes would do? Once they are equipped with a towed array sonar, they would have a well balanced package of sensors and weapons to perform escort roles.

The advantage of keeping them in service is that all of our limited shipbuilding resources could be focused on building as many Tier 1 vessels as quickly as possible - they are the type of vessel that the ADF desperately needs during this time of increased tensions.

Crewing additional warships will be a massive challenge but, I believe that many of those that have left the RAN would make themselves available if their country needs them. It would be helpful if a number of them have previously served on an Anzac and thus would require less training to get them up to speed.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I could no agree more. If you are looking at a desired capability something akin to the current capability of the fully modified ANZAC would apppear to be a reasonable baseline (I have said this quite a bit but don't tire from repeating it).

An uprated OPV or small corvette is going to struggle to do this. And if it does it may come at the cost of something else such as range and redundancy in power generation (noting radars and combat systems can be power hogs and have to be kept fed in addition to fighting and moving). Weight is everything in a vessel design and to pack a lot of weapons on a 2000 tonne hull means something else has to give. Conversely. an OPV with gun and a CIWS with some SSM's is going to need someone to watch over it in a contested environment.
Agreed, anything you can't sink a Mk-41 into and provide with a scaled CEA radar mast doesn't deserve to be called a combatant. Such ships will not only be able to do their primary border protection tasking without overwatch, they would add to the defensive capability of any taskforce they were assigned to.

An issue will be such a ship will require a PWO, a MEO and a WEO, but then again, the quickest way to get plenty of them is to have platforms on which they can be gainfully employed early in their careers.

Long term it would be good to return to a three tier structure with destroyers, gp frigates and corvettes (instead of PBs), but it will take time and consistent investment.
 

76mmGuns

Active Member
Long term it would be good to return to a three tier structure with destroyers, gp frigates and corvettes (instead of PBs), but it will take time and consistent investment.
If such plans were made for a 3 tier structure, I'd be worried they'd want to keep the front line ship numbers static at 12, and thus force small/tiny numbers of each class. Would , say, 3 corvettes, 3 GP frigates and 6 heavy frigates be worthwhile?, as against, say, 12 Hunters, + 6 GP frigates, and 6 corvettes? (yes, logistics, infrastructure, money, politics play a role). I mean, look at it now. Is the issue with Anzacs only their age, or are they underarmed for what we want our front line ships to do? If they are, then we can't skimp on the number of heavy combatants, and any cuts to them, to fit in a few corvettes, isn't in our interest.
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
If such plans were made for a 3 tier structure, I'd be worried they'd want to keep the front line ship numbers static at 12, and thus force small/tiny numbers of each class. Would , say, 3 corvettes, 3 GP frigates and 6 heavy frigates be worthwhile?, as against, say, 12 Hunters, + 6 GP frigates, and 6 corvettes? (yes, logistics, infrastructure, money, politics play a role). I mean, look at it now. Is the issue with Anzacs only their age, or are they underarmed for what we want our front line ships to do? If they are, then we can't skimp on the number of heavy combatants, and any cuts to them, to fit in a few corvettes, isn't in our interest.
Good question.
If the RAN was a clean slate and you had to purchase a navy.

What would you get?

Cheers S
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
The same rumours concerning the corvettes also talk of transferring the Arafura's to Border Force. This would free up personnel for any new corvette and also boost the capability of Border Force.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
If such plans were made for a 3 tier structure, I'd be worried they'd want to keep the front line ship numbers static at 12, and thus force small/tiny numbers of each class. Would , say, 3 corvettes, 3 GP frigates and 6 heavy frigates be worthwhile?, as against, say, 12 Hunters, + 6 GP frigates, and 6 corvettes? (yes, logistics, infrastructure, money, politics play a role). I mean, look at it now. Is the issue with Anzacs only their age, or are they underarmed for what we want our front line ships to do? If they are, then we can't skimp on the number of heavy combatants, and any cuts to them, to fit in a few corvettes, isn't in our interest.
The minimum numbers determined during the post-cold war peace dividend, i.e. no China threat, were 8 or 9 tier 1, 8 tier 2 and 12 tier 3. So 16 to 17 destroyers and frigates and a dozen corvettes with Harpoon, ESSM and Penguin armed Super Sea Sprites. The proposed 12 majors and 12 OPVs we are aiming for now is significantly less than the minimum peace time force we knew we needed in the late 80s/ early 90s.

I have brought these figures up a couple of time a year since joining this site over a decade ago, there have been counter arguments that escort numbers have never been more than a dozen, but the facts are until the late 90s there were other capabilities or planned procurements that mitigated the dozen.

For example, until 1982 there was a carrier with strike aircraft, fix wing ASW and heavy ASW helos, when the carrier was not replaced the mitigation was an increase in escort numbers from 12 to 17, 14 of which were to have ASW helos. Up until the early 80s there was the carrier, destroyers and frigates, plus combat capable training ships, i.e. Vampire that was arguable more capable than the Riverclass Frigates in their last couple of years. Prior to that there was even a reserve fleet with older frigates and destroyers.

There are 3 Hobarts, 8 ANZACs and 12 OPVs (under construction), this is the minimum, simple as that. The corvettes are proposed as alternatives for the full twelve OPVs, NOT AS A REPLACEMENT FOR THE ANZACS OR AS AN ALTERNATIVE TO THE HUNTERS. The corvettes, if they are procured will be a capability increase, not a decrease, a supplement, not a replacement for the majors.

People seem to be scared that if the RAN get useful small combatants, it will be at the expense of large combatants, it's this type of thinking that caused our current problems. The ANZACs were the second tier there were Patrol Frigates, not even GP frigates, there were meant to have the endurance and capabilities needed to do the work the corvettes we never got couldn't, they were never intended to be the backbone of the fleet, but delays in replacement of high-end ships and rejection of interim options saw upgrading the ANZACs as the only remaining option. We were offer the four Kidd Class DDGs as hot transfers from the USN, these ships have recently completed their NTU and had SM-2. The reasons they were rejected is to crew them we would have had to retire our two oldest FFGs and there was also the concern their capability was such that the government may choose to keep them as DDG replacements and only replace the FFGs with a frigate instead of a destroyer.

Reality check, four Kidd Class DDGs, four FFGs and eight ANZACS is a pretty impressive fleet. So, the Kidds mean the government goes looking for an FFG instead of a DDG, planning to replace the Kidds later, well without the money wasted on the FFGUP or the money spent converting the ANZACs into GP frigates, we could have afforded to build four F-100s to replace the remaining FFGs, but several years earlier.

The insidious way the ANZACS became our front-line frigates is the upgrade of Melbourne and Newcastle became a life extension planned for all six FFGs (FFGUP) to permit the retirement of the DDGs before their replacements were ordered. These replacements would then follow the ANZACs out of Williamstown, there would be six or seven of them (to replace the DDGs and US built FFGs) and they would serve alongside the ANZACs and the Australian built FFGs. The FFGUP was screwed up and we got four upgraded ships instead of six, so in less than a decade nine destroyers and frigates became six frigates, then four frigates, which were then replaced by three Spanish frigates we call destroyers. The first tier became one third its planned size. This happened in the middle of the largest economic boom our country has ever seen.

The irony is, had the ANZACs been smaller and less capable than they were, i.e. as they were originally planned, no one could have pretended that they were GP frigates, and the first tier could not have been shrunk by two thirds. There is more risk of major numbers being eroded if we procure the high-end GP frigates some seem to be pushing instead of corvettes or OPVs. I like the Type 31 and am a fan of its ancestor, the Absalon Class, I can even see a RAN role for them as modern day APDs, fleet mine hunters and USV/UUV mother ships, but only in addition to the Hunters and Corvettes.

During the peace dividend it was deemed that we needed 8 (or9), 8 and 12, I think in this day and age 12, 12 and 12 could easily be justified.
 
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