Australian Army Discussions and Updates

[Takao]

this is probably a dumb question but who is best placed to judge what’s best…lobbyists like ASPI …I assume they talk with senior ADF staff …or ADF commanders themselves ….assume they have a real world view of what is and is nor working, shortfalls to requirements, understand the logistics…who gets trusted with what’s right! I hope it’s not people without real world ADG experience.

Now days? In every case, ADF commanders.

ASPI (especially) has shown significant amounts of plain ignorance and stubbornness, with little willingness to debate or even consider basic force design or government expenditure requirements. Senior ADF peeps do have blind spots, and there is value in seeking views outside of uniforms, but a lot of that is catered by the inherent tensions within the Department as well as the significant (and vital) presence of APS.

Rule of thumb is unless they can provide pretty specific $$ and workforce plans (including where its coming from) and unless they acknowledge there is no one solution, nor easy one, discount them. Right now, there are no easy decisions. Likewise, no simple solutions.

 

[aussienscale]

So just curious, I have seen this week and last on the highway in Northern NSW, I think now 5 that I can remember, semi trailers transporting what appear to be brand spanking new Hawkei's and trailers !

They don't even look like they have been on the road, very fresh !! Interesting thing though, they are all heading south from QLD !! Go figure

 

[Volkodav]

Now days? In every case, ADF commanders.

ASPI (especially) has shown significant amounts of plain ignorance and stubbornness, with little willingness to debate or even consider basic force design or government expenditure requirements. Senior ADF peeps do have blind spots, and there is value in seeking views outside of uniforms, but a lot of that is catered by the inherent tensions within the Department as well as the significant (and vital) presence of APS.

Rule of thumb is unless they can provide pretty specific $$ and workforce plans (including where its coming from) and unless they acknowledge there is no one solution, nor easy one, discount them. Right now, there are no easy decisions. Likewise, no simple solutions.

There appears to be some movement in the ratios of APS to contractors. The artificial caps on numbers and salaries in the APS have resulted in a bit of dumbing down but if this is fixed some more of the right people will join and stay and maybe we can get the impartial, professional APS defence needs.

 

[Stampede]

5 RAR re rolling into a Littoral Manoeuvre Unit?

A & NZ Defender has an item for the above.

Are they replicating 2 RAR or just getting their feet wet ?

Cheers S

 

[AndyinOz]

5 RAR re rolling into a Littoral Manoeuvre Unit?

A & NZ Defender has an item for the above.

Are they replicating 2 RAR or just getting their feet wet ?

Cheers S

Can't say I know what is going on but from these two sources,

(YouTube channel and Defence website)

https://news.defence.gov.au/capability/tiger-training-shore-thing

it would seem that the activities are certainly geared towards increasing the ability and as mentioned the corporate knowledge required to operate in the littoral environment.

"Soldiers from the 5th Battalion, Royal Australian Regiment, recently conducted small-boat exercises during Exercise Tiger's Run in Darwin.
These included boat handling and beach landings to develop 1st Brigade's littoral manoeuvre capability." (https://news.defence.gov.au/capability/tiger-training-shore-thing)

Whether that is heading down the 2RAR path or just getting their feet wet others I am sure are better placed to offer and opinion than myself. (apologies if I posted the links/references in an incorrect format let me know if that is the case)

 

[Massive]

Right now, there are no easy decisions. Likewise, no simple solutions.

Thanks Takao,

Noted.

I feel that a great outcome would be clarity as to what needs to be achieved (sensing that while uncertainty remains, focus is clearer), and the immediate next steps on the road to achieving it.

A common understanding of the problem, and communicating that understanding, would be a great start.

Thanks again,

Massive

 

[Redlands18]

Australia – UH-60M Black Hawk Helicopters | Defense Security Cooperation Agency

www.dsca.mil

DSCA has approved the possible sale of 40 UH-60M Blackhawks and related equipment to Australia, worth $1.95B USD. Shouldn't expect any procurement announcement until after March 2023 due to the ongoing review.

 

[Bob53]

Reading through the HIMARS sale approval.

Australia – HIMARS Launchers | Defense Security Cooperation Agency

www.dsca.mil

Can anyone explain what all different components mean? HIMARs to me was a truck based system. GMLRS was a tracked based system… I thought. Is this approval for both? And pods …… do they mean the rockets themselves?

The Government of Australia has requested to buy twenty (20) M142 High Mobility Artillery Rocket Systems (HIMARS); thirty (30) M30A2 Guided Multiple Launch Rocket Systems (GMLRS); thirty (30) Alternative Warhead (AW) Pods with Insensitive Munitions Propulsion Systems (IMPS); thirty (30) M31A2 GMLRS Unitary (GMLRS-U) High Explosive Pods with IMPS; thirty (30) XM403 Extended Range (ER)-GMLRS AW Pods; thirty (30) EM404 ER GMLRS Unitary Pods; and ten (10) M57 Army Tactical Missile System (ATACMS).

 

[Redlands18]

Reading through the HIMARS sale approval.

Australia – HIMARS Launchers | Defense Security Cooperation Agency

www.dsca.mil

Can anyone explain what all different components mean? HIMARs to me was a truck based system. GMLRS was a tracked based system… I thought. Is this approval for both? And pods …… do they mean the rockets themselves?

The Government of Australia has requested to buy twenty (20) M142 High Mobility Artillery Rocket Systems (HIMARS); thirty (30) M30A2 Guided Multiple Launch Rocket Systems (GMLRS); thirty (30) Alternative Warhead (AW) Pods with Insensitive Munitions Propulsion Systems (IMPS); thirty (30) M31A2 GMLRS Unitary (GMLRS-U) High Explosive Pods with IMPS; thirty (30) XM403 Extended Range (ER)-GMLRS AW Pods; thirty (30) EM404 ER GMLRS Unitary Pods; and ten (10) M57 Army Tactical Missile System (ATACMS).

The Tracked version is the M-270 MLRS and that has been out of production since 2003. The M30/31 is the family of Rockets that the HIMARS use and the M57 is the LR Missile that can be fired from HIMARS.

 

[Takao]

Reading through the HIMARS sale approval.

Australia – HIMARS Launchers | Defense Security Cooperation Agency

www.dsca.mil

Can anyone explain what all different components mean? HIMARs to me was a truck based system. GMLRS was a tracked based system… I thought. Is this approval for both? And pods …… do they mean the rockets themselves?

The Government of Australia has requested to buy twenty (20) M142 High Mobility Artillery Rocket Systems (HIMARS); thirty (30) M30A2 Guided Multiple Launch Rocket Systems (GMLRS); thirty (30) Alternative Warhead (AW) Pods with Insensitive Munitions Propulsion Systems (IMPS); thirty (30) M31A2 GMLRS Unitary (GMLRS-U) High Explosive Pods with IMPS; thirty (30) XM403 Extended Range (ER)-GMLRS AW Pods; thirty (30) EM404 ER GMLRS Unitary Pods; and ten (10) M57 Army Tactical Missile System (ATACMS).

M142 HIMARS is the truck and launcher

GMLRS is the actual rocket.

AW is a HE/frag airburst warhead

IMPS is a motor that uses insensitive munitions (reduces the chance of unintentional detonation - quite impressive tech)

ATACMS is a 'super rocket'

The pods come preloaded (effectively). The pod slides on to the HIMARS launcher. Each pod contains 6x GMLRS or 1x ATACMS.

This is an excellent post by @Bob53 that really highlights (a) the US shouldn't be allowed to name things, and (b) we should translate into English for our press releases....

 

[Bob53]

Thanks Takao and Redlands. That makes more sense. So each of the 30 X pods is actually 180 of the type of munition.

It was reading (to me) that we had approval for only 30 of each type which seemed way short of even a training volume.

I suspect every commander will be wanting HIMARs with ATCAMs at their disposal on future … or current battlefields.

 

[Todjaeger]

This is an excellent post by @Bob53 that really highlights (a) the US shouldn't be allowed to name things, and (b) we should translate into English for our press releases....

I see your comment, and will raise you an M1, or maybe an M4...

 

[Stampede]

Thanks Takao and Redlands. That makes more sense. So each of the 30 X pods is actually 180 of the type of munition.

It was reading (to me) that we had approval for only 30 of each type which seemed way short of even a training volume.

I suspect every commander will be wanting HIMARs with ATCAMs at their disposal on future … or current battlefields.

Thanks for this conversation, I was trying to figure out the numbers.

Cheers S

 

[Severely]

There's an interesting bit in the FMS document that I was wondering about with the Taipans being retired. The Taipans have both a radar and IR search capabilities. I didn't think the UH-60Ms would come equipped with anything like that but is does state "Color Weather Radars; MX-10D EO/IR with Laser Designator " . Is this something peculiar to our specification or has it been done elsewhere or by the US army to provide this sort of sensor suite.

 

[Aardvark144]

There's an interesting bit in the FMS document that I was wondering about with the Taipans being retired. The Taipans have both a radar and IR search capabilities. I didn't think the UH-60Ms would come equipped with anything like that but is does state "Color Weather Radars; MX-10D EO/IR with Laser Designator " . Is this something peculiar to our specification or has it been done elsewhere or by the US army to provide this sort of sensor suite.

Look at the UH60M detail on the Lockheed Martin website.

 

[MARKMILES77]

There's an interesting bit in the FMS document that I was wondering about with the Taipans being retired. The Taipans have both a radar and IR search capabilities. I didn't think the UH-60Ms would come equipped with anything like that but is does state "Color Weather Radars; MX-10D EO/IR with Laser Designator " . Is this something peculiar to our specification or has it been done elsewhere or by the US army to provide this sort of sensor suite.

The new Defence Minister seems to have little enthusiasm for a UH-60M buy.
Widely reported that he hinted to reporters the MRH-90 might not be replaced until the US Army picks a Blackhawk replacement.

Australia’s purchase of Black Hawks not done deal, says Marles

The Defence Minister stated his predecessor Peter Dutton’s announcement last year that the Army would buy 40 was a “pretty fuzzy commitment”.

australianaviation.com.au

 

[Aardvark144]

The new Defence Minister seems to have little enthusiasm for a UH-60M buy.
Widely reported that he hinted to reporters the MRH-90 might not be replaced until the US Army picks a Blackhawk replacement.

Australia’s purchase of Black Hawks not done deal, says Marles

The Defence Minister stated his predecessor Peter Dutton’s announcement last year that the Army would buy 40 was a “pretty fuzzy commitment”.

australianaviation.com.au

Given the US plans on operating the UH60 until 2054, the Minister's lack of enthusiasm is unfortunate. So we keep on operating the MRH90 with it's issues until sometime mid next decade? I thought our geopolitical situations needs action ASAP. The Blackhawk would fit the bill I should think.

 

[Stampede]

Given the US plans on operating the UH60 until 2054, the Minister's lack of enthusiasm is unfortunate. So we keep on operating the MRH90 with it's issues until sometime mid next decade? I thought our geopolitical situations needs action ASAP. The Blackhawk would fit the bill I should think.

Army need a medium helicopter.
What ever the choice, make a decision and make it work.



Cheers S

 

[Bob53]

Army need a medium helicopter.
What ever the choice, make a decision and make it work.



Cheers S

If the decision is to wait until the next gen is available that would be a poor outcome. It could be 10-15 years before production is in full swing. Just get the Blackhawk’s and work on the next gen when it’s available and mature.

 

[Stampede]

Article with the ABC today re replacing our APC's.

This troop carrier was obsolete 30 years ago. Army is fighting to keep its $20 billion replacement project

When the army's M113 personnel carriers were deployed to the streets of Somalia in the 90s they were already obsolete. Soldiers fear a $20 billion project to replace them could be on the federal government's chopping block.

www.abc.net.au

Keeping the conversation going in the public arena.


Cheers S