Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates 2.0

[John Newman]

Re the NSM, i noted two different stories about this, one story mentions an expense of $41 M , the other $70 odd, either way, numbers would suggest a follow on buy is needed.
I would think that some of the harpoon stock would be close to expiry date, and need replacement, and would assume that harpoon will be replaced as they expire.

The announcement of the NSM acquisition goes back to early April:

$3.5 billion to accelerate missile strike capabilities for the ADF | Defence Ministers

The Morrison Government has approved the accelerated acquisition of improved weapon capabilities for the Australian Defence Force (ADF) at a total cost of $3.5 billion.Minister for Defence the Hon Peter Dutton MP today announced that Defence will accelerate the acquisition of:

www.minister.defence.gov.au

And

Australia to buy Naval Strike Missile & fast-track JASSM-ER buy | ADBR

Defence Minister Peter Dutton has announced that Australia will buy the KONGSBERG Naval Strike Missile (NSM) to equip the Royal Australian Navy’s surface combatants, and the Lockheed Martin JASSM-ER for…

adbr.com.au

NSM is part of a larger $3.5b weapons package.

The contract amount announced the other day, approx $70m, is probably just to start getting the ball rolling.

In the big scheme of things ($3.5b), the $70m is beer money.

 

[John Newman]

Is there a timetable on when we are getting the new missiles?
Could we start sending some to Ukraine as this should be itar approved.

The replacement of Harpoon across a variety of ADF assets is not going to happen overnight.

For the RAN Harpoon is active on Anzac, Hobart and Collins classes.

For the RAAF Harpoon is active on F/A-18F and P-8A.

NSM will replace Harpoon on Anzac and Hobart classes (reportedly starting in 2024), there has been no news regarding Collins class.

LRASM will replace Harpoon on F/A-18F and P-8A.

As for F-35A (does not operate Harpoon), we will have to wait and see what happens with the Block 4 upgrades, possibly JSM for internal carriage (and external too?), and possibly LRASM for external carriage.

I think it’s a bit too early to be thinking about flogging off the Harpoon stock just yet.

 

[John Newman]

As they are US ITAR controlled FMS weapon system, they will have to be desposed of in a manner that meets those US ITAR requirements. If the US approves the transfer, they could be moved on to another approved user. But this has to have US approval. The CoA cannot decide to sell them to anyone without US approval.

This is a common misconception on the selling of any decommissioned platforms and systems containing ITAR things. It can only happen with US approval.

Agree completely regarding US ITAR rules.

But I would imagine if the Government found a ‘friendly’ nation (and by friendly, I mean to both Australia and the US), that the sale/transfer process would likely be approved by the US.

Some examples I can think of include, F/A-18A/B to Canada, SH-2G(A) to NZ, C-130H to Indonesia, 2 x Adelaide (FFG7) class to Chile.

 

[Todjaeger]

Agree completely regarding US ITAR rules.

But I would imagine if the Government found a ‘friendly’ nation (and by friendly, I mean to both Australia and the US), that the sale/transfer process would likely be approved by the US.

Some examples I can think of include, F/A-18A/B to Canada, SH-2G(A) to NZ, C-130H to Indonesia, 2 x Adelaide (FFG7) class to Chile.

Perhaps, but also perhaps not. IIRC the US refused to authorize NZ to on-sell ex NZ Army M113's through an Australian arms dealer.

Also, the NZ purchase of the ex-RAN SH-2G(A) Seasprites was from their manufacturer Kaman, not from the RAN. Further, by the time of the sale, Kaman had modified the ex-RAN helicopters into the SH-2G(I), having gone back to an aircrew of three.

 

[John Newman]

Perhaps, but also perhaps not. IIRC the US refused to authorize NZ to on-sell ex NZ Army M113's through an Australian arms dealer.

Also, the NZ purchase of the ex-RAN SH-2G(A) Seasprites was from their manufacturer Kaman, not from the RAN. Further, by the time of the sale, Kaman had modified the ex-RAN helicopters into the SH-2G(I), having gone back to an aircrew of three.

The on-sell of ex Kiwi M113s to an ‘arms dealer’ isn’t exactly a Government to Government deal is it?

As for the SH-2G(A), my understanding (a distant memory) was that Kaman sold the helicopters ‘on behalf’ of the Oz Government and we received a percentage back on the sale.

I think they were still ‘officially’ owned by the Australian Government with Kaman acting as a broker/agent.

Again, distant memory, but I think that’s how it went down.

 

[Redlands18]

Canberra arriving in Pearl for RIMPAC 2022, at least this time RAN personnel will be able to spend time ashore after the restrictions of 2020.
Video supplied to YT by the RAN.

 

[alexsa]

Except the Guardians are steel and are still suffering cracking. The same things seem to go wrong with every large monohull they build, irrespective of whether they are aluminium or steel.

They are a blend, steel hull and aluminium upper works (from the rubbing strip upwards). These areas of superstructure could get knocked about in large tidal areas and tall wharves.

 

[the road runner]

Here come the Hunter class prototype blocks. They starting to take shape !

Hunter Class Frigate Program achieves first vertical construction - YouTube

 

[Mark_Evans]

Does anyone know when the Hunter Class Preliminary Design Review is due to be completed?

 

[Massive]

Here come the Hunter class prototype blocks. They starting to take shape !

Asking the dumb question. When you say "prototype" will this eventually be HMAS Hunter or is this some other activity?

Thanks in advance,

Massive

 

[Volkodav]

Asking the dumb question. When you say "prototype" will this eventually be HMAS Hunter or is this some other activity?

Thanks in advance,

Massive

No, one of the lessons learnt on the Hobart's was the need to fabricate more prototype blocks to test and perfect processes. There were also prototype blocks produced for the Hobart's, there definately should have been more, especially the troubled hull blocks.

 

[John Newman]

Asking the dumb question. When you say "prototype" will this eventually be HMAS Hunter or is this some other activity?

Thanks in advance,

Massive

The plan to produce five prototype blocks was announced more than three years ago, and no they won’t become production blocks.

Google ‘Hunter class prototype blocks’ for more details.

 

[Massive]

the need to fabricate more prototype blocks to test and perfect processes

Thanks Volk & John,

Definitely makes sense given the size and length of the program.

Very enlightening.

Massive

 

[spoz]

While the early prototype blocks are definitely not to be used, being built purely to prove the functioning of the new digital shipyard, I have heard there is a possibility some of the later ones might be. Probably depends on how well the process goes.

 

[InterestedParty]

Could the prototype blocks end up incorporated into simulators for damage control or other useful activities

 

[oldsig127]

While the early prototype blocks are definitely not to be used, being built purely to prove the functioning of the new digital shipyard, I have heard there is a possibility some of the later ones might be. Probably depends on how well the process goes.

That makes sense. Prototype blocks built before finalisation of the design will likely be too expensive or impossible to remediate for use in an actual hull. Blocks built very near completion of the design could well need little in the way of changes and be viable/

oldsig

 

[Flexson]

Could the prototype blocks end up incorporated into simulators for damage control or other useful activities

Doubtful. The RAN school of 4 S's are at Cerberus, Stirling and near Creswell at the Jervis Bay airfield. Getting the blocks to these locations would be expensive or impossible and considering that the SSSS facilities, particularly at Cerberus and Creswell, have had a lot of money upgrading them in the recent past and are suitable for all classes of ship training, it would be pointless. As for general land based Hunter class training, that is set to be established primarily at Stirling. So Still expensive and difficult to get the blocks there and set up in a use-able and beneficial way and then maintain when training can be done by computer based simulators. Where necessary/beneficial to have hardware it's more cost effective to set up those pieces of equipment in buildings/sheds.

They would make excellent Dive/artificial reef structures for SA, similar to what is being paid for to be built in other states.

 

[John Newman]

When it comes to the prototype blocks, the focus should be on why they are being manufactured in the first place, and not on if some can be used as production blocks.

If at the end if the day they have validated the production process (I’m sure there is a ‘100 point checklist’ of sorts to be ticked off), then they have done their job.

Assuming that check list is ticked off and the next phase of producing actual production blocks proceed smoothly, then again, the prototyping process has done its job.

So what do you do with the prototyping blocks?

You could put them in the corner and let apprentices and trainees dick around with them, or potentially modify some to production standard (but only if worth doing).

But I suspect they will just be recycled, reuse any components that a worth reusing or just cut them up and melt down.

 

[Systems Adict]

Does anyone know when the Hunter Class Preliminary Design Review is due to be completed?

I've found this on open source :

Hunter-class frigate programme completes systems definition review

The fact that this link / data is from February this year, I would expect that there will be a 'pause' of circa 1 year (believe it or not), as I would expect the PDR to be a bit more labour intensive on the design front. This is the point where they provisionally agree the design of each compartment across the hull. With anywhere between 600 - 800 compartments on a ship of this size, you'll hopefully understand that it isn't exactly a 3 week job to complete...

 

[MARKMILES77]

Not entirely new news but Navantia offering the new Federal Government three new Hobart Class Vessels for a cost of $2 Billion Australian each. $6 Billion Total.
First delivered in 2027. Last delivered in 2029.
Price is cheap and delivery is way before any Hunter Class would enter service.
The catch is for that price and that delivery schedule they would be made in Spain.
If the government was to agree to the offer, work in Spain would start within months.
Also offering a combined Spain/Adelaide build but price goes up and delivery would be later.
Price obviously deeply attractive but imagine the "Not made in Australia" would make the Government very hesitant to accept.
Offer has been raised at a Prime Minister to Prime Minister level by Pedro Sanchez the Spanish PM.

Spanish pitch to supply Australia with three warships by end of 2030

Spanish defence giant has told federal officials it can supply three guided-missile warships by the end of this decade.

www.theage.com.au