Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates 2.0

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
FMD! Austal strike again. Carbon monoxide, cracking etc. similar/same issues as encountered with the Capes/Armidales. This time it's the Guardian Class, great effort to make friends and influence people.

Who wants to bet China comes in with a higher quality replacement offer.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
FMD! Austal strike again. Carbon monoxide, cracking etc. similar/same issues as encountered with the Capes/Armidales. This time it's the Guardian Class, great effort to make friends and influence people.

Who wants to bet China comes in with a higher quality replacement offer.
Links @Volkodav You know the rules.

Luckily I read the story in our rag Australian-built $2.3 billion Guardian-class patrol boats for Pacific island nations have major flaws | Stuff.co.nz and it reads like a litany of stuff ups. Definitely not a good look. I have a cuzzy who wants to sell you a bridge. One owner and in good nick :D
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro

76mmGuns

Active Member
FMD! Austal strike again.
"scuse my ignorance, but what does FMD stand for? I googled it and this was at the top:


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What is FMD%?


Fibromuscular dysplasia (FMD) affects the artery walls, making them either too weak or too stiff. This can lead to serious complications, including arterial narrowing (stenosis), weakening/bulging (aneurysm) or tearing (dissection). At least 90 percent of adults with FMD are women.

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I'm assuming you aren't talking about a medical issue :)

Couldn't connect it to ones like ffs, omg, omfg.
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
"scuse my ignorance, but what does FMD stand for? I googled it and this was at the top:


---------
What is FMD%?


Fibromuscular dysplasia (FMD) affects the artery walls, making them either too weak or too stiff. This can lead to serious complications, including arterial narrowing (stenosis), weakening/bulging (aneurysm) or tearing (dissection). At least 90 percent of adults with FMD are women.

----------

I'm assuming you aren't talking about a medical issue :)

Couldn't connect it to ones like ffs, omg, omfg.
Considering the subject I suspect being Austal, it stands for "F$&k me dead"
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
"scuse my ignorance, but what does FMD stand for? I googled it and this was at the top:


---------
What is FMD%?


Fibromuscular dysplasia (FMD) affects the artery walls, making them either too weak or too stiff. This can lead to serious complications, including arterial narrowing (stenosis), weakening/bulging (aneurysm) or tearing (dissection). At least 90 percent of adults with FMD are women.

----------

I'm assuming you aren't talking about a medical issue :)

Couldn't connect it to ones like ffs, omg, omfg.
F me dead.

To be used when the level of frustration is such you would rather the f'd to death than go on with what you are witnessing.
 

76mmGuns

Active Member
Thanks all

Given Austal's issues, I'm confused why Austal seems to be still getting contracts from the US , most recently with the USCG getting Austal to build new cutters. that's about 20-25 years of building for the US military now.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Thanks all

Given Austal's issues, I'm confused why Austal seems to be still getting contracts from the US, most recently with the USCG getting Austal to build new cutters. that's about 20-25 years of building for the US military now.
Perhaps they acquired Epstein's tapes?

They seem to have something on many.
 
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alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Perhaps they acquired Epstein's tapes?

They seem to have something on many.
Not a fan but to be fair they have built some impressive RO-PAX HSC Ferry's. They also have an impressive built time .... they push the things out pretty quickly. I will not go into what my specific issues with Austal are but you do not get a long lived patrol boat out of them in the 50m+ range. The Bay Class were replaced by the Capes but two were retained in service (with one gutting herself) with Border Force. Some of the others were passed on to other users. I do not expect they will be long lived if they have a very active life.

The fact that building extra Capes to facilitate the tranistion to the Arafura rather than rely on the ACPB is indicative of their viability over the longer term. To be fair it could be that the original planned operational use was misjudged.

The high speed RO-PAC built for US Sealift are probably a good match for the operations they undertake with the US.

So .... they have a record with the US with their LCS having less issues (currently) with the alternative. On this basis I am not surprised.
 
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spoz

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Plus the new contracts are for steel ships to be built to an extant general design. There is no reason why Austal USA should not be able to do as good a job as any other US yard with that as the requirement.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Plus the new contracts are for steel ships to be built to an extant general design. There is no reason why Austal USA should not be able to do as good a job as any other US yard with that as the requirement.
Except the Guardians are steel and are still suffering cracking. The same things seem to go wrong with every large monohull they build, irrespective of whether they are aluminium or steel.
 

spoz

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
True although not to the hull as I understand it. But a different shipyard with different management building something which is not an Austal design; and which has actually produced some ships with which the US is reasonably happy - although that was apparently in the shipyard next door; they appear to have acquired a “new” yard to build steel ships. In any case, it’s the USCG, nothing to do with the RAN!
 

aussienscale

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
So missed this one !! Defence Connect reporting that Kongsberg and the Commonwealth have officially penned a deal for the acquisition of the NSM.


Bit of a not brainer to replace Harpoon TBH, should open the door for something official for the JSM as well one would hope ?

Cheers
 

MickB

Well-Known Member
So missed this one !! Defence Connect reporting that Kongsberg and the Commonwealth have officially penned a deal for the acquisition of the NSM.


Bit of a not brainer to replace Harpoon TBH, should open the door for something official for the JSM as well one would hope ?

Cheers
A question that some my be able to help with,
What happens to a capability like the Harpoon once it is replaced?
Are the reloads kept as backup war stocks or sold on to another Harpoon user?
Is it worth the expense to keep such a capability in reserve?
 

old faithful

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Re the NSM, i noted two different stories about this, one story mentions an expense of $41 M , the other $70 odd, either way, numbers would suggest a follow on buy is needed.
I would think that some of the harpoon stock would be close to expiry date, and need replacement, and would assume that harpoon will be replaced as they expire.
 
A question that some my be able to help with,
What happens to a capability like the Harpoon once it is replaced?
Are the reloads kept as backup war stocks or sold on to another Harpoon user?
Is it worth the expense to keep such a capability in reserve?
As they are US ITAR controlled FMS weapon system, they will have to be desposed of in a manner that meets those US ITAR requirements. If the US approves the transfer, they could be moved on to another approved user. But this has to have US approval. The CoA cannot decide to sell them to anyone without US approval.

This is a common misconception on the selling of any decommissioned platforms and systems containing ITAR things. It can only happen with US approval.
 

Mark_Evans

Member
As they are US ITAR controlled FMS weapon system, they will have to be desposed of in a manner that meets those US ITAR requirements. If the US approves the transfer, they could be moved on to another approved user. But this has to have US approval. The CoA cannot decide to sell them to anyone without US approval.

This is a common misconception on the selling of any decommissioned platforms and systems containing ITAR things. It can only happen with US approval.
Is there a timetable on when we are getting the new missiles?
Could we start sending some to Ukraine as this should be itar approved.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
A question that some my be able to help with,
What happens to a capability like the Harpoon once it is replaced?
Are the reloads kept as backup war stocks or sold on to another Harpoon user?
Is it worth the expense to keep such a capability in reserve?
It really depends, as there are a number of variables which could be involved.

For a US-sourced weapon (and likely at least some Euro-sourced munitions as well) there are likely agreements in place that put restrictions on what a purchasing country could do with the ordnance being replaced. Of course a country could decide to violate those agreements, but in most cases that would just not be worth it.

For a weapon like the Harpoon AShM itself, one should also consider why it is being replaced. If weapon X is being phased out and replaced because it is nearing or at its expiry date, that would suggest, strongly to me at least, that the cost to inspect and either recertify the munitions as 'good' or carry out the needed maintenance so that the ordnance can still function properly is deemed too high for the capabilities the munitions have.

An example (using made up numbers sourced from the WAG Institute) of a potential scenario would be if the RAN were to consider inspecting and recertifying the existing Harpoon AShM stocks at a cost of ~USD$700k per missile, so that the existing stocks could be kept in service for another five years with their current level of capabilities (range, sensors, guidance, accuracy, warhead size, etc). Or alternately, a new AShM like the NSM could be acquired for ~USD$2.1 mil. with an expected 'shelf life' of 20 years before requiring either recertification or replacement. At some point, the capabilities of older systems are no longer worth the costs to maintain them, particularly when newer replacement systems have been developed and are starting to be fielded.

Yet another potential reason for a munition to be retired (not, AFAIK at least, applicable to the RAN currently) is that the platforms and systems involved in actually making effective use of the ordnance is or has been retired.

From my POV, it would be worthwhile for the RAN to continue to maintain some stocks of the Harpoon AShM for the time being, with some caveats. If the existing stocks have reached their expiry date and replacement stocks of NSM are not available for deployment from RAN or ADF assets, then recertify what can be kept and purchase and integrate NSM as a matter of urgency. If the Harpoon replacement is essentially all ready to enter service but the Harpoons have not reached expiry, then keep Harpoon missiles in service and/or reserve if a buyer is not available for them. If the Harpoons have reached expiry, then either sell of donate them if that is an option, otherwise defuse and destroy them. The final potential option of donating viable Harpoons is also a consideration, but IMO should only happen after Australia's Harpoon stocks have been replaced with NSM.
 
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