Next Generation MBT Discussion and Concepts

[Terran]

Okay moving on.
Uneducated conjecture.
So we seem to have a hull with aspects of Lynx and leopard 2 which makes sense as it’s Rheinmetall. The KF designation has my attention though. It’s clearly referring to the Lynx KF31 and KF41 both are export oriented. The few images thus far clearly show the low stance of a conventional MBT vs the taller western IFV. What if what we see in the few KF51 images are a redesign of the Leopard 2 hull hybrid with Lynx for a licensable exportable product.
As to the Turret for Leopard 2, I expect makers to be offering upgrades and upgrades to Leopard 2 series even as MGCS is in service. This is as Leopard 2 users are fairly broad with limited budgets that may prevent the latest tanks but still could afford remodels. I expect the KF51 to not share a turret with Leopard 2. As again if my expectation is right this would be a competitive product.

 

[ngatimozart]

Okay moving on.
Uneducated conjecture.
So we seem to have a hull with aspects of Lynx and leopard 2 which makes sense as it’s Rheinmetall. The KF designation has my attention though. It’s clearly referring to the Lynx KF31 and KF41 both are export oriented. The few images thus far clearly show the low stance of a conventional MBT vs the taller western IFV. What if what we see in the few KF51 images are a redesign of the Leopard 2 hull hybrid with Lynx for a licensable exportable product.
As to the Turret for Leopard 2, I expect makers to be offering upgrades and upgrades to Leopard 2 series even as MGCS is in service. This is as Leopard 2 users are fairly broad with limited budgets that may prevent the latest tanks but still could afford remodels. I expect the KF51 to not share a turret with Leopard 2. As again if my expectation is right this would be a competitive product.

Some questions.

• Is it a Lynx hull with a turret that has a 120mm main gun?
• What about the new 130mm gun?
• Or even a 155mm gun / howitzer at the outside?
• Are we looking at:
  • A light tank concept?
  • A new heavy tank?
  • Or a SPG / SPH on a lighter chassis?

Lots of questions and no real answers until it's fully unveiled. Reminds me of those young ladies who used to be mean to young impressionable and wholesome lads like myself. We'd only ever visit churches, art galleries and museums, never having bad thoughts and these young ladies would flaunt their bodies show all sorts of enticing views, promises etc., but when the time came they'd never do anything about it. Right teasers they were.

 

[Vivendi]

European arms development is as always quite messy.

The MGCS vehicle was originally launched as a project between France and Germany in 2012, as both countries looked to replace their Leclerc and Leopard 2 heavy tanks, through a joint venture between Nexter and KMW, now known as KNDS. However, different strategic visions from the two countries on the future of land warfare and the participation of Rheinmetall in the program, as desired by Berlin, seem to have changed the situation.

Strategically, France sees the next tank as a smaller and more agile vehicle than those traditionally produced — one that has the firepower of a traditional tank, but can move faster across multiple terrains both in Europe and overseas, where France is active in out-of-area operations. Germany, on the other hand, is closer to Europe’s Eastern Flank where a conventional confrontation with Russia might occur. It favors something that looks more like the tanks in service today. Industrial disputes have also risen (as they always do with European multinational defense projects.) The two countries also disagree on the main armament. Germany would prefer the Rheinmetall 130 mm/L51 gun, the French would prefer the innovative Autoloaded Ascalon by Nexter.

The project could benefit from involving other European countries. In May 2021, the German government indicated its willingness to expand the initiative, so long as it could agree on terms with France. Interest from another major European player could be just what is needed to get the project back on track.

One country with a close interest in this is Italy, a European powerhouse with a strong defense-industrial base, a major role in European politics and security, and the third-biggest economy in the European Union (EU.) Prime Minister Mario Draghi has restored Italy’s role at the heart of EU affairs, along with France and Germany, making it an important player in the debate over European autonomy and defense capabilities. Italy too is seeking a replacement of its main battle tank, the Ariete, around 2035, which coincides with the MGCS timeline.

At the industrial level, Italy can offer technological capabilities to strengthen Europe’s next tank. The possible entry of OTO Melara and Wass into the project, providing sensors and electronics, could bring Italian expertise directly into the project, while also giving Italy a voice in the development phase. While this does not answer questions around the vehicle’s main armament, it would benefit both Italy and Europe in two ways.

Italy Gets Europe’s Main Battle Tank Back on Track | CEPA

I am not sure if Italy joining this mess will help -- especially if they insist (as you would expect) Italian companies to play a role. Anyway, many European countries are or will soon be in need for a "next generation" MBT. I hope that they for once can collaborate in a sensible manner. There are too many examples of these processes going astray...

 

[STURM]

I hope that they for once can collaborate in a sensible manner. There are too many examples of these processes going astray...

It has to be beneficial for all and the needed trade offs/compromises will have to be made. European joint development is and can be messy but there are successful examples like Tornado, Jaguar and A400M. Or Kelly's 'king Of The Killing Zone' tells the fascinating story of the M-1 and why Britain and France went their own ways; leaving the Yanks to focus on the M-1 without any partners.

 

[Terran]

Some questions.

• Is it a Lynx hull with a turret that has a 120mm main gun?
• What about the new 130mm gun?
• Or even a 155mm gun / howitzer at the outside?
• Are we looking at:
  • A light tank concept?
  • A new heavy tank?
  • Or a SPG / SPH on a lighter chassis?

Lots of questions and no real answers until it's fully unveiled. Reminds me of those young ladies who used to be mean to young impressionable and wholesome lads like myself. We'd only ever visit churches, art galleries and museums, never having bad thoughts and these young ladies would flaunt their bodies show all sorts of enticing views, promises etc., but when the time came they'd never do anything about it. Right teasers they were.

If army recognition’s reporting is accurate than KF51 is an MBT with a 130mm gun.

Eurosatory 2022: Rheinmetall from Germany to present new defense produ

google_ad_client = "pub-4068738923530102"; /* 468x15 data sheet menu top dark green */ google_ad_slot = "3500417247"; google_ad_width = 468; go

www.armyrecognition.com

Which makes sense a number of replacement MBT programs were in the planing stages including both Poland and the US as well as other nations. With Russia having shaken the world from the end of history era, conventional conflict is back on the menu and that means new MBT with better armor than what has come before.

 

[Terran]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1535329519053049856

And now this. This looks like a GDLS teaser for AUSA show later this year.
moderators please note this is all conjecture, any resemblance to reality may only be coincidental or accident on my part. Assuming this isn’t a hoax.

The “Next Generation Stryker” looks like it could be a derivative of one of the newer LAV 700. Which would be such a logical next step for Stryker that Mr. Spock would approve.
Upper image is more important, the “Next Generation Abrams”
Abrams is planned for atleast one more new variant the M1A2D or SEP4, which was said to be in the works right now. Which lends some credence to this.
The most visible aspect ontop looks like a remote weapon’s station similar to Kongsberg RS6 that that has mounted M230LF auto canon.
The silhouette doesn’t look like it has the normal commander station and gunners/loaders secondary M240. Which might explain the honking huge RWS
The Main gun doesn’t seem like the M256A1 120mm L44 gun. It looks more like the XM360 which was developed for the XM1202 and has since reappeared on the GDLS Griffin demonstrator circa 2016’s AUSA.

 

[Big_Zucchini]

Which makes sense a number of replacement MBT programs were in the planing stages including both Poland and the US as well as other nations. With Russia having shaken the world from the end of history era, conventional conflict is back on the menu and that means new MBT with better armor than what has come before.

Still likely less of an MBT and more of a demonstrator on a chassis built for IFVs.

If Rheinmetall has a vehicle running for several years, firing that 130mm and proving its feasibility, that's gonna put a lot of weight behind Rheinmetall's case for 130mm on MGCS, and might, just might, even pull a customer.

 

[Terran]

Thus far Rhinemetall has been fairly consistent in the way they have shown Lynx. All the variants are built on two hulls the lighter KF31 which is a more conventional medium weight from 35-38 tonnes and the KF41 from 44-50 tonnes. Even the Lynx 120 didn’t get a unique number.
As such KF51 would imply a new hull if they kept consistent logic hull and suspension in the 51-60+ tonnes class.
The logic of the Lynx program was to anticipate potential buyers wants with a family of vehicles that could be tailored to the actual program needs once they emerged. Thing is a 51+ ton IFV is a very niche requirement. Most potential HIFV buyers would probably go for a KF41 variant. Though I expect commonality between the KF41 and whatever the KF51 is. I don’t think that a IFV would be the primary configuration. SPH maybe, Armored recovery vehicle absolutely, Bridge layer okay, Breaching vehicle fine , MBT obviously but IFV in that class would only meet a few countries needs.
Still I could be completely wrong. We won’t know for sure until Monday 1pm for you 7 am for me.

 

[Terran]

So the cat is out of the bag. 130mm main gun with automatic loader. Manned turret. 12.7mm coax and 7.62mm RWS. 59 tonnes.

 

[Big_Zucchini]

Still unclear what platform this is, but Damian speculates it's a modified Leopard 2A4.
The turret itself is interesting, as well as the layout of the vehicle.
It seems to have a bustle loader with a rather low ammo count of ~20rds, and 4 UVision Hero-120 loitering munitions in a pop-up launcher.
Despite the autoloader, it retains a 4 man crew, which are the driver, gunner, commander, and systems operator.
The systems operator may be necessary to operate the loitering munitions as well as surrounding assets like UGVs, UAS etc, and onboard systems like EW, SIGINT, comms, and BMS. In many cases I assume to be the commander's right hand man.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1536341134464663552

This is an odd choice considering the planned reduction to 2-3 men in future designs with whom Panther supposedly competes.

 

[Terran]

Well we know it’s got 7 road wheels. That’s not common with either of the Lynx which both sport 6. Rhinemetall calls it an MBT unambiguously.

Rheinmetall pitches Panther battle tank as heir to the Leopard

The proposal at the Eurosatory defense exhibition in Paris adds a new angle to the discussion in Europe about a next-generation tank for the continent.

www.defensenews.com

Rheinmetall

The Panther is the first of its kind: Rheinmetall's radically new main battle tank concept drawing on some of the latest technologies.

www.rheinmetall-defence.com

So we are clearly not dealing with an IFV suspension. A modified leopard 2 Suspension? Okay. The wheels look to line up with that. What we can say is it’s lighter than Leopard 2. It apparently sports the same power pack.

New KF51 Panther Tank Packs Big 130mm Gun Aimed At Aging Leopard 2

Germany’s Rheinmetall has unveiled its KF51 Panther that could disrupt Franco-German plans for a new main battle tank.

www.thedrive.com

Commonality with Leopard 2 yes. Same? Have to wait and see.

As to the 4th man. It seems like this is a provision not an absolute. They seem to have made that an option to operate optional UAS systems or Sr. officers.
::Edit:: or even potentially taking a page from the IDF play book and using that extra spot to pick up a stranded tanker from a disabled vehicle.

 

[kato]

Meanwhile KMW at Eurosatory once again showed a tracked 45-ton GVW vehicle able to take both Boxer modules and larger variants up to twice the weight; presented this time with a remote-controlled turret with a 120mm/L44.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1536308619347632134

The dismounts Drummond mentions are in lieu of a not-yet-prototyped ammunition storage system in the chassis. The turret carries 15 rounds.

 

[Terran]

Looks like KMW is trying to counter Lynx. I mean Lynx is a tracked AFV family using drop in models. Which is what tracked boxer is.
KNDS did show a new version of the EMBT demonstrator with a 4 man crew and Autoloader…

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1536263363616964608

of course Rhinemetall stole the show. Short of a real life Mijnior armor it’s hard to imagine anything that might have upstaged it.

 

[Ananda]

Promotional video from Rheinmetall for KF51.

 

[Terran]

I think that’s the same video I posted above

 

[koxinga]

Hmm

Is this SEPv4?

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1537227953020751872

 

[Big_Zucchini]

The tracked Boxer is starting to grow on me. Visually disgusting in that camo, but is otherwise a good idea for Boxer operators.
Problem is that with only a few hundred units built so far, there's hardly any incentive for anyone to buy it for now.

Hmm

Is this SEPv4?

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1537227953020751872

No, the presented MBT is pitched for the Army, not something that has customers yet. The SEPv4 is clearly defined and is a program of record.
Second, these videos present an MBT with radical changes compared to the standard Abrams, far outside the scope of the known SEPv4.

 

[Terran]

Hmm

Is this SEPv4?

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1537227953020751872

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1537175681582366720

This seems more likely to be M1A2D(sep4). It’s a very conventional Abrams with new sensors.

The tracked Boxer is starting to grow on me. Visually disgusting in that camo, but is otherwise a good idea for Boxer operators.
Problem is that with only a few hundred units built so far, there's hardly any incentive for anyone to buy it for now.


No, the presented MBT is pitched for the Army, not something that has customers yet. The SEPv4 is clearly defined and is a program of record.
Second, these videos present an MBT with radical changes compared to the standard Abrams, far outside the scope of the known SEPv4.

The US Army has been working on establishing requirements for a successor to Abrams. With the aim being to phase Abrams out of the system by 2050.
Given developments we have seen with the return of great power competition and the weight gain M1A2C it’s not going to be easy to keep moving them around Europe by rail, bridge truck or CRV let alone the pacific. It seems likely that a clean sheet is needed to put these tanks on a diet. Not as light as the Japanese Type 10 but somewhere closer to 60 short tons base weight well offering modern equipment and survival at least on par with them as they are today. My bet is that GDLS sees the writing on the wall and cooked up a show room floor model to pitch as an evolution of the Abrams hence Abrams NG.
As far back as the 1990s Abrams test beds for future MBTs we’re being built using Abrams hull CATTB with bustel automatic loaders in either 120mm or 140mm. They also Armata style (yuck) unmanned turret with Carousel loader

Now I suspect that the GDLS Abrams NG is built like a successor to the M1 TTB. An unmanned turret with a carousel loader and XM360 probably recycling from the FCS XM1202. The XM360 gun was talked about as being fitted in to Abrams and GDLS has shown it in the Griffin light tank at AUSA.
GDLS was also the contractor for the XM1202 “Mounted Combat vehicle” of the FCS manned vehicles. It sported the XM360 gun and a carousel loader. This would
Explain the narrow turret of the concept images. They then basically re modeled the hull into at least a 2 man crew and dropped a bushmaster in a RWS on top.

 

[Big_Zucchini]

This seems more likely to be M1A2D(sep4). It’s a very conventional Abrams with new sensors.

You posted links to two entirely different things. The SEPv4 is obviously shown there in full, while the NG Abrams is still under wraps.
Otherwise how do you explain the SEPv4 not showing any new gun, no 30mm RWS, no hull crew capsule, no PASEO sights, and many other differences?

 

[Terran]

You posted links to two entirely different things. The SEPv4 is obviously shown there in full, while the NG Abrams is still under wraps.
Otherwise how do you explain the SEPv4 not showing any new gun, no 30mm RWS, no hull crew capsule, no PASEO sights, and many other differences?

Perhaps I should and will edit to try and clarify.
these are as you also pointed out separate things. Abrams is at a cross roads, all MBT are.
M1A2C. I am not calling it the Sep 3 as the army has redesignated it with the additional alpha Numeric. This is the Abrams version in and entering the motor pool right now.

the M1A2D (sep4) which seems to be this

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1537175681582366720

Is programmed by the army for 2025. It’s a systems update. But very much in line with the C. This is an incremental improvement.

Then we have the GDLS Abrams NG which is all guess work based on a viral marketing campaign. Which is I think a pitch for the talked of OMT, Using a heavily modified Abrams hull as the basis Targeting some time in the 2030s. An American MGCS, XM1A3, Abrams NG, Optionally Manned Tank, Decisive Lethality Platform.
What ever you want to call it. The hope for GDLS is an eventual successor to Abrams. GDLS seems to want to get in on it now presumably as an update to the Abrams system rather than have the Army run an open bid competition with potential of an Americanized K2M up gun or Panther Kf51 or some completely new wildcard MBT.