The Russian-Ukrainian War Thread

vikingatespam

Well-Known Member
90 day clocks ? Does anyone have any information about the supposed 90 days contracts of Russian soldiers ? I hear a lot about how the non-conscripts have 90-day contracts as this is not a "war", and they can walk away after that time. Has anyone been able to validate this ? If true, is there some sort of stop-loss ability from the Russian command ?
 

vikingatespam

Well-Known Member
As of 0900 US EST, liveuamap is claiming UKR attacks in the Kherson region. Looking for corroboration for this. deepstatemap.live doesnt show anything going on in that region.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
These are Putin's own words about what he wants. I have copied the pertinent paragraphs from the Kremlin's English Translation:

Some time ago I had a discussion with the Patriarch about education, and he happened to say that even though education was indeed crucial, without proper upbringing we would not succeed at anything, because you can teach a person something, but the question is how they will use their knowledge. Science, education, upbringing, and health care are critically important, because without them demographic issues cannot be resolved, and so on. What about culture? If we do not rely on the basic values of the national cultures of the peoples of Russia, we will not consolidate our society. Without consolidation, everything will fall apart. And the fact that we have to sort of defend ourselves and fight for it is obvious.
We visited the exhibition dedicated to the 350th birth anniversary of Peter the Great. Almost nothing has changed. It is a remarkable thing. You come to this realisation, this understanding.
Peter the Great waged the Great Northern War for 21 years. On the face of it, he was at war with Sweden taking something away from it… He was not taking away anything, he was returning. This is how it was. The areas around Lake Ladoga, where St Petersburg was founded. When he founded the new capital, none of the European countries recognised this territory as part of Russia; everyone recognised it as part of Sweden. However, from time immemorial, the Slavs lived there along with the Finno-Ugric peoples, and this territory was under Russia’s control. The same is true of the western direction, Narva and his first campaigns. Why would he go there? He was returning and reinforcing, that is what he was doing.
Clearly, it fell to our lot to return and reinforce as well. And if we operate on the premise that these basic values constitute the basis of our existence, we will certainly succeed in achieving our goals."​

There can be no ambiguity or misrepresentation by reading them through the lens of a media source either Russian or western. Narva is in Estonia and was conquered from the Swedish Kingdom during the Great Northern War of 1700 - 1721 between Russian and Sweden. Every man and his dog in Eastern Europe was involved in that war and even the Ottomans were helping out.

View attachment 49426
Source: 1024px-Russia_1533-1896.gif (1024×727) (wikimedia.org)

View attachment 49427
Source: Growth of Russian Empire (studylib.net)

If you look at Putin's speech the operative word is return and and he uses that frequently. He attempts to compare himself with Peter the Great by saying "... The same is true of the western direction, Narva and his first campaigns. Why would he go there? He was returning and reinforcing, that is what he was doing. Clearly, it fell to our lot to return and reinforce as well." So Ukraine is just one step on his way to returning imperial Russia to her former glory and extent. The two maps above show the full extent of the Russian Empire including the Soviet times up to 1991. He won't stop until he has achieved his goal. It may not just be him either because it's been suggested that Nikolai Patrushev and Dmitry Medvedev are what one US media writer calls ultra hawks, Russia Ukraine war: Vladimir Putin's threat to Sweden, Finland, Estonia, Baltic states in speech - NZ Herald, who I liken to the US neocons that were prevalent ten years ago and longer. If that is indeed the case then even when Putin falls off his perch (dies), his expansionist policy isn't going to die with him. This could be a recurring problem with Russia for the foreseeable future.
It's an open question where he will stop and if he will stop. He is old so he may well be dead long before he can realize any of these grandiose plans. But this is what I've been saying for quite some time. The two main points: 1) Putin wants the Russian Empire and it's imperialist policies back and 2) Putin's replacement may well turn out to be worse then him.

By the way, that map for some reason Russian territorial expansion within Soviet borders. The Russian Empire included Finland, a large chunk of Poland including Warsaw, and at one point even Manchuria. There was even a plan to resettle Manchuria with Russian and Ukrainian settlers.

As of 0900 US EST, liveuamap is claiming UKR attacks in the Kherson region. Looking for corroboration for this. deepstatemap.live doesnt show anything going on in that region.
I don't have specific confirmation, but what do you mean by attacks? Local probing attacks or artillery strikes? Of course. Those have been ongoing. A major offensive? That would be news indeed.
 

vikingatespam

Well-Known Member
I don't have specific confirmation, but what do you mean by attacks? Local probing attacks or artillery strikes? Of course. Those have been ongoing. A major offensive? That would be news indeed.
Enough such that liveuamap is showing it. The area has been quiet for about a week or so since the last UKR attack at Bruskynske.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Enough such that liveuamap is showing it. The area has been quiet for about a week or so since the last UKR attack at Bruskynske.
Russian sources are claiming Russia took the rest of the Kinburn peninsula. If true, it's not complete quiet. It would also serve as an indirect confirmation that Ukraine has pushed the Russian Navy back from the coast, and seizing controlling geography and attacking Ukrainian warhips has become a priority (Russia apparently hit the Vinnitsa and forced back Ukraine's lonely landing ship).


There was also some air defense fires from Sevastopol at something. Sources claim a Russian ship SAM was fired.


So it's not all quiet...
 

vikingatespam

Well-Known Member
Russian sources are claiming Russia took the rest of the Kinburn peninsula. If true, it's not complete quiet. It would also serve as an indirect confirmation that Ukraine has pushed the Russian Navy back from the coast, and seizing controlling geography and attacking Ukrainian warhips has become a priority (Russia apparently hit the Vinnitsa and forced back Ukraine's lonely landing ship).

So it's not all quiet...
I meant to say, from a ground point of view, relatively quiet. I doubt the peninsula was contested. I suspect that if the UKR had the means to make a big push towards Kherson they would of done so, but the fight at Severodonetsk is drawing most forces form both sides it appears.

The UKR navy is practically (and has been) a non-entity. I cant imagine why the RU are wasting time on it.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
I meant to say, from a ground point of view, relatively quiet. I doubt the peninsula was contested. I suspect that if the UKR had the means to make a big push towards Kherson they would of done so, but the fight at Severodonetsk is drawing most forces form both sides it appears.

The UKR navy is practically (and has been) a non-entity. I cant imagine why the RU are wasting time on it.
My best guess is that they're blocking the port of Nikolaev by taking that peninsula. If indeed the VMF is forced to stay further from the coastline, blocking Nikolaev and Ochakov is a step to controlling the coast. It's also possible though in my opinion less likely, that Russia is gearing up for an offensive on Nikolaev, and wants to make sure the sea route is blocked tight to prevent reinforcements and resupply out of Odessa.
 

Steinmetz

Active Member
First person Ukrainian point of view from Severodonetsk. You can hear some English speaking in the background of the video, would be indicative of some foreign volunteers mixed in with the Ukrainians there.

ASB Military News

I'm finding the Defense Politics Asia interactive map to be a relatively good source. He cites information from both sides and approximates the frontline to the best of his ability.

Ukraine - Defense Politics Asia
 
I agree that Ukraine was more stable and yes it was also more democratic, but not to the level of other European nations such as Georgia or Romania. That would've taken time. Putin's invasion has changed all of that. He destabilised the country in 2014 because his puppet / lackey got turfed out and rightly so too. The Maiden Revolution had to happen in order to begin freeing Ukraine from Russian interference and domination. Russia has to learn that it's period of imperial expansion and domination of its neighbours is over.
I don't agree that is was "rightly so" that Yanukovych was turfed out. Firstly the Guy was democratically elected, by not allowing him to serve his term it set a dangerous precedent that Election results can just be ignored and over ruled by force. His natural inclinations were not even particularly pro Russian, he initially supported closer ties with Europe before the Russians pressured him away from that position.

But far worse is the fact that it wasn't Ukrainians acting independently to oust him. There was some internal resistance to him but it was assisted and exaggerated by the CIA. He would never have been forced to flee without CIA involvement.


I have no doubt the CIA's role in the Maidan Revolution sowed the seeds for the current war. During the Cold War there was an understanding that you don't foul in your Rival's backyard. Ideological Wars did break out in places like Korea, Vietnam and Afghanistan but these Countries were relatively neutral and not geographically important to either side. The west did not make any serious attempt to install Democratic Governments in Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union did not attempt to foster Communism in Mexico or Canada.

When the Iron Curtain came down the West quickly moved to take Geopolitical Control of Eastern Europe. By this I mean establish friendly Political Relations with the new Governments, establish Military Alliances and open up Economic ties to allow Western Businesses to trade freely and in some cases exploit their natural resources. In other words move these Countries from Russia's Geopolitical Orbit to the West's.

The problem is that the new people running Russia weren't really new at all. They are all the same Communists who used to run the Soviet Union. And they run Russia much like an Outlaw Bikie Gang, where everything is about turf and territory. When a Rival Bikie Outlaw Club opens a Tattoo Shop right next to your Clubhouse that is an Insult. How do they react - well if they want to stay around they burn it down, shoot it up and go looking for whoever was behind the idea with a bunch of baseball bats. If they don't do this they will be regarded as a bunch of Pussies and have to go out of Business or Patch over to the other Club.

Morally Russia has no Business in Ukraine creating the carnage it is. Legally they don't have a leg to stand on. Politically it is a disaster, they have isolated themselves from much of the World. Economically they will be suffering for decades to come. Strategically it will probably go down as the worst blunder this Century. Militarily it has been a calamity, they have lost thousands of troops, huge quantities of equipment, wasted a lot of ammunition and missiles, lost much credibility as a fighting force and have stooped to committing rapes and war crimes.

But in the Bikie/Mafia like environment the Kremlin works in the War makes perfect sense. America's CIA insulted them by brazenly stealing Ukraine (geopolitically) from under their noses and that result cannot be allowed to stand.

The CIA would have understood perfectly well their actions could lead to War. But they didn't care. Now both Countries are in a horrific situation and problems like food shortages and inflation are spreading around the world.

So kicking out Yanukovych the way they did has proved to be a disaster. It didn't even help solving Ukraine's fundamental issues of Corruption and Kleptocracy, before the War they were little better than Russia in this space. The only outcome was a Russian Puppet was replaced with an American one and then the response to that result we are seeing unfold now.
 
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Ananda

The Bunker Group
It's also possible though in my opinion less likely, that Russia is gearing up for an offensive on Nikolaev, and wants to make sure the sea route is blocked tight to prevent reinforcements and resupply out of Odessa.
@Feanor altough personally I believe any large offensive by Russian in south will wait the results on Donbas, however considering how stretch Ukraine in Donbas, can existing Russian in Kherson and Crimea will be enough to move against Nikolayev ?

I do agree seems Russian now more taking digging in possition in South, and let Ukranian grinding themselves out toward Russian line on those succesive unproductive counter offensive. Seems Kyiv more concern for getting some small success against Kherson line, to politically shown point.

Still if Russian see the Ukrainian depleting themselves on Nikolayev line, will they be tempted to move to Nikolayev with Crimean-Kherson resources alone (considering it will take time for any conclusions on Donbas will come) ?
 
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SolarWind

Active Member
I don't agree that is was "rightly so" that Yanukovych was turfed out. Firstly the Guy was democratically elected, by not allowing him to serve his term it set a dangerous precedent that Election results can just be ignored and over ruled by force. His natural inclinations were not even particularly pro Russian, he initially supported closer ties with Europe before the Russians pressured him away from that position.

But far worse is the fact that it wasn't Ukrainians acting independently to oust him. There was some internal resistance to him but it was assisted and exaggerated by the CIA. He would never have been forced to flee without CIA involvement.


I have no doubt the CIA's role in the Maidan Revolution sowed the seeds for the current war. During the Cold War there was an understanding that you don't foul in your Rival's backyard. Ideological Wars did break out in places like Korea, Vietnam and Afghanistan but these Countries were relatively neutral and not geographically important to either side. The west did not make any serious attempt to install Democratic Governments in Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union did not attempt to foster Communism in Mexico or Canada.

When the Iron Curtain came down the West quickly moved to take Geopolitical Control of Eastern Europe. By this I mean establish friendly Political Relations with the new Governments, establish Military Alliances and open up Economic ties to allow Western Businesses to trade freely and in some cases exploit their natural resources. In other words move these Countries from Russia's Geopolitical Orbit to the West's.

The problem is that the new people running Russia weren't really new at all. They are all the same Communists who used to run the Soviet Union. And they run Russia much like an Outlaw Bikie Gang, where everything is about turf and territory. When a Rival Bike Outlaw Club opens a Tattoo Shop right next to your Clubhouse that is an Insult. How do they react - well if they want to stay around they burn it down, shoot it up and go looking for whoever was behind the idea with a bunch of baseball bats. If they don't do this they will be regarded as a bunch of Pussies and have to go out of Business or Patch over to the other Club.

Morally Russia has no Business in Ukraine creating the carnage it is. Legally they don't have a leg to stand on. Politically it is a disaster, they have isolated themselves from much of the World. Economically they will be suffering for decades to come. Strategically it will probably go down as the worst blunder this Century. Militarily it has been a calamity, they have lost thousands of troops, huge quantities of equipment, wasted a lot of ammunition and missiles, lost much credibility as a fighting force and have stooped to committing rapes and war crimes.

But in the Bikie/Mafia like environment the Kremlin works in the War makes perfect sense. America's CIA insulted them by brazenly stealing Ukraine (geopolitically) from under their noses and that result cannot be allowed to stand.

The CIA would have understood perfectly well their actions could lead to War. But they didn't care. Now both Countries are in a horrific situation and problems like food shortages and inflation are spreading around the world.

So kicking out Yanukovych the way they did has proved to be a disaster. It didn't even help solving Ukraine's fundamental issues of Corruption and Kleptocracy, before the War they were little better than Russia in this space. The only outcome was a Russian Puppet was replaced with an American one and then the response to that result we are seeing unfold now.
You make some interesting commentary, but ultimately I see no evidence of a link to the CIA in the article you cite. Only some unsupported claims and an alleged link to an alleged individual who was allegedly ex-military, which does not mean he was working for the CIA.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
@Feanor altough personally I believe any large offensive by Russian in south will wait the results on Donbas, however considering how stretch Ukraine in Donbas, can existing Russian in Kherson and Crimea will be enough to move against Nikolayev ?

I do agree seems Russian now more taking digging in possition in South, and let Ukranian grinding themselves out toward Russian line on those succesive unproductive counter offensive. Seems Kyiv more concern for getting some small success against Kherson line, to politically shown point.

Still if Russian see the Ukrainian depleting themselves on Nikolayev line, will they be tempted to move to Nikolayev with Crimean-Kherson resources alone (considering it will take time for any conclusions on Donbas will come) ?
We've seen additional units moving around in Kherson and Zaporozhye, including the infamous T-62s. In Zaporozhye it appears to be part of a troop rotation. In Kherson it could have been a build-up, especially if Ukraine took considerable losses in their recent pushes.
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
While Putin boasts of restoring Greater Russia you have to wonder what the Chinese are making of it all. I have never imagined the Chinese to be overly happy about a European power claiming territories to its north. China does have historic claims of parts of Siberia and would still harbour ill feelings about the Amur Annexation. Russia best keep an eye on its Eastern provinces.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
China does have historic claims of parts of Siberia and would still harbour ill feelings about the Amur Annexation. Russia best keep an eye on its Eastern provinces.

I'm planning to put this in China Geopolitical thread. However put it here, as shown how both getting closers, at the time both feeling more pressure from US and Collective West.


US shown concern on Chinese and Russian policy, but continue put pressure to both of them. Look on the trading spat between US Defense Secretary and Chinese Defense Ministry in Singapore conference.


So I don't see China will make move to Russia. They clearly see more and more the need for each other. This's going to be Multipolar Globalisation. Both of them will be on another polar then US and Collective West, no matter how this war will be ended.

Note:
Mods, please relocate this post to Chinese Geopolitical thread, if being considered more appropriate.
 
You make some interesting commentary, but ultimately I see no evidence of a link to the CIA in the article you cite. Only some unsupported claims and an alleged link to an alleged individual who was allegedly ex-military, which does not mean he was working for the CIA.
Here is another article discussing the issue. The Author asserts the CIA judged the peaceful protests could be turned into a revolution and used to dislodge the President.


Victoria Nuland personally went to Ukraine to supervise the transition of Power and ordered Arseniy Yatsenyuk to be appointed as Ukraine's next Prime Minister! So much for wanting to spread Democracy around the World.

 

tonnyc

Well-Known Member
Victoria Nuland personally went to Ukraine to supervise the transition of Power and ordered Arseniy Yatsenyuk to be appointed as Ukraine's next Prime Minister! So much for wanting to spread Democracy around the World.

I read that article several times and I don't find anything where anyone ordered that anyone be appointed anything.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Of the UA losses and dessertions what approximate percentage are the poorly equipped TDF? If Ukraine is throwing their poorest units in the meat grinders where they cannot win, it may look cruel, but would be the most effective thing to do in their position. They have a large enough male population that they can replace tdf units quickly enough. And they need their properly trained and equipped units for counter attacks in areas where Russians are spread thinner. Makes no sense to throw away veteran units in hopeless defenses of cities/villages that will fall soon or be encircled.
In wartime a lot of prewar plans and doctrines can go out the window pretty fast. There's an old saying amongst the military that any plan is only good until first contact with the enemy. Then it all turns to rubbish. Things change and they can change very quickly. The Ukrainian Command main not have any choice in the matter and has to commit forces as they are positioned.
As of 0900 US EST, liveuamap is claiming UKR attacks in the Kherson region. Looking for corroboration for this. deepstatemap.live doesnt show anything going on in that region.
In future please provide sources for claims that you make. It's required by our rules.
It's an open question where he will stop and if he will stop. He is old so he may well be dead long before he can realize any of these grandiose plans. But this is what I've been saying for quite some time. The two main points: 1) Putin wants the Russian Empire and it's imperialist policies back and 2) Putin's replacement may well turn out to be worse then him.
Yes definitely on the first point and on the second, from what I have read so far Putin may be the more moderate of the team that are running things. I do agree I think that he will have fallen off his perch and will be replaced by someone far more zealous about reclaiming "lost territory" who is more likely to be closer to using Stalin's methodology in executing the mission and dealing with objections.
By the way, that map for some reason Russian territorial expansion within Soviet borders. The Russian Empire included Finland, a large chunk of Poland including Warsaw, and at one point even Manchuria. There was even a plan to resettle Manchuria with Russian and Ukrainian settlers.
Yes, I did a search for maps and most that I found exhibited the same boundaries. I also think that at some stage the Russian empire included parts of or all of Poland as well. Interestingly enough the Kalingrad Oblast exclave is only a recent addition because it used to be Prussia or east Prussia until 1945 when the German population migrated west in a hurry for some strange reason. It was originally founded by the Teutonic Knights way back. After 1991 Estonia and Poland didn't want it because of the high Russian population and subsequent problems that could cause. Whilst West Germany was to busy absorbing East Germany that it didn't want its traditional land back as an exclave either. Probably a wise decision.
I don't agree that is was "rightly so" that Yanukovych was turfed out. Firstly the Guy was democratically elected, by not allowing him to serve his term it set a dangerous precedent that Election results can just be ignored and over ruled by force. His natural inclinations were not even particularly pro Russian, he initially supported closer ties with Europe before the Russians pressured him away from that position. ...
I disagree and I think that the source you cite isn't the best around. problem is anytime a govt is turfed or a President is voted out and some people don't like it the CIA is always blamed for it. In reality Yanukovych was turfed out because he refused to carry out the wishes of the Parliament and that was to apply for EU membership in favour of a deal with Russia. So he was impeached with a majority of 328 of 447 voting for impeachment. Ukraine President Yanukovich impeached | News | Al Jazeera & Ukrainian MPs vote to oust President Yanukovych - BBC News. So who was the set the "dangerous precedent". He had also imprisoned the Opposition Leader Yulia Tymoshenko on trumped up charges so he had to go because he was selling out to Russia which made him a traitor.
While Putin boasts of restoring Greater Russia you have to wonder what the Chinese are making of it all. I have never imagined the Chinese to be overly happy about a European power claiming territories to its north. China does have historic claims of parts of Siberia and would still harbour ill feelings about the Amur Annexation. Russia best keep an eye on its Eastern provinces.
Yes, they won't have a sense of humour about it at all and the CCP will be somewhat incensed to say the least.
Here is another article discussing the issue. The Author asserts the CIA judged the peaceful protests could be turned into a revolution and used to dislodge the President.

Victoria Nuland personally went to Ukraine to supervise the transition of Power and ordered Arseniy Yatsenyuk to be appointed as Ukraine's next Prime Minister! So much for wanting to spread Democracy around the World.
Enough. You are pushing conspiracy theories using unsubstantiated material, and you've already been warned in April by another Moderator for pushing Russian propaganda. If you carry on down this path you will be banned from posting in this thread whilst the Moderators consider what action to take against you.
 
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Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Interestingly enough the Kalingrad Oblast exclave is only a recent addition because it used to be Prussia or east Prussia until 1945 when the German population migrated west in a hurry for some strange reason. It was originally founded by the Teutonic Knights way back. After 1991 Estonia and Poland didn't want it because of the high Russian population and subsequent problems that could cause. Whilst West Germany was to busy absorbing East Germany that it didn't want its traditional land back as an exclave either. Probably a wise decision.
There was a pattern of mass deporting German populations after WWII. It's a pretty ugly page in history. Not comparable to what Nazi Germany did when it had the chance, but a shameful page in history none the less for all perpetrators.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
There was a pattern of mass deporting German populations after WWII. It's a pretty ugly page in history. Not comparable to what Nazi Germany did when it had the chance, but a shameful page in history none the less for all perpetrators.
Definitely, but it wasn't just German populations. Stalin was a mightily suspicious fulla to say the least.
 
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