Royal Australian Air Force [RAAF] News, Discussions and Updates

StingrayOZ

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
I think it is a positive announcement, but I would imagine its probably going to happen either way whom ever gets in. Loyalwingman/Ghostbat is IMO a sensible project I don't see a lot of people working against.

However, at ~$60m a piece, UAV's aren't cheap. This space also seems very dynamic, I imagine mission/tasking may be further clarified in future announcements.

I was hoping for a more dramatic RAAF announcement. 4th squadron of F-35's (or half squadron), or a P8, A330MRTT, blk III SH upgrade or something. Even if it wasn't a commitment to buy, but an announcement to assess. Giving some detail regarding policy for the future.
 
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hauritz

Well-Known Member
I am a tad confused. Defence Connect are touting it as a further $454 million to accelerate the program. It also funds the development of seven additional aircraft. It doesn't really go beyond that.

PM spruiks major Ghost Bat boost

Australia’s Ghost Bat fleet would more than double under a new half-a-billion-dollar plan announced by the Coalition. Prime Minister Scott Morrison has committed to investing a further $454 million
www.defenceconnect.com.au www.defenceconnect.com.au

Also thinking that with all that is happening in the Ukraine now Australia may well have come up with the right product at the right time. If it can have operational versions of this aircraft up and running by 2024/25 there could be a big market waiting for them.
 
Mark_Evans

Mark_Evans

Member
hauritz said:
I am a tad confused. Defence Connect are touting it as a further $454 million to accelerate the program. It also funds the development of seven additional aircraft. It doesn't really go beyond that.

PM spruiks major Ghost Bat boost

Australia’s Ghost Bat fleet would more than double under a new half-a-billion-dollar plan announced by the Coalition. Prime Minister Scott Morrison has committed to investing a further $454 million
www.defenceconnect.com.au www.defenceconnect.com.au

Also thinking that with all that is happening in the Ukraine now Australia may well have come up with the right product at the right time. If it can have operational versions of this aircraft up and running by 2024/25 there could be a big market waiting for them.
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I thought the conflict in Ukraine was showing the value of a low cost, low visibility, long duration drone that can both spot targets and deliver small targeted weaponry. Not a wingman for a fighter jet. I appreciate the modular mission module in the nose gives flexibility but is it too much product for a Ukrainian type mission? I do see the wingman as a force multiplier for an any mission working with a manned aircraft but would be interested in what it can do when flying solo.
 
V

vonnoobie

Well-Known Member
Mark_Evans said:
I thought the conflict in Ukraine was showing the value of a low cost, low visibility, long duration drone that can both spot targets and deliver small targeted weaponry. Not a wingman for a fighter jet. I appreciate the modular mission module in the nose gives flexibility but is it too much product for a Ukrainian type mission? I do see the wingman as a force multiplier for an any mission working with a manned aircraft but would be interested in what it can do when flying solo.
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Well it all depends on what the cost of the MQ-28 will be in various configurations. The TB2 has been quite well used with a relatively low unit cost (Seen one claim of $1m a unit to which I call BS, Other claims of $5m a unit though did find an article from 2019 of Turkish sale to Ukraine of 6 drones for $69m USD). While the unit cost is quite high it is a low rate production at present and we dont as yet know what is or isnt included or what they will be equipped with in regards to capability. Should also factor in the general standard rule in the ADF of including life time costs meaning the purchase price is probably half or less of that so factoring in the LRP they may have a solid chance to reduce cost and gain such a market share.

That being said low cost simple drones/loitering munitions will play a massive role in any future conflict but it all comes down to where and how they are used. The simple drones more likely to be used at the platoon and company level targeting forces within their AO while drones like the TB2 and MQ-28 (If it is ever armed, Im leaning towards it will be sooner or later) will perform deeper strikes. If you can use your deeper strike drones to limit or eliminate the ability of the enemy to resupply while your cheaper smaller drones are used to reak havoc upon the enemy in your immediate region you can very well all but defeat the enemy at a tactical level before the bulk of your forces are put into harms way.
 
S

STURM

Well-Known Member
Mark_Evans said:
I thought the conflict in Ukraine was showing the value of a low cost, low visibility, long duration drone that can both spot targets and deliver small targeted weaponry.
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Nargano Karabakh and later Libya showed us this. The campaign in the Donbas was a great demonstration of the utility of UASs at a tactical and operational level when deployed part of strike/recce complex. To me the current conflict in the Ukraine is not teaching us anything new per see with UASs; merely reaffirming what we already knew.

Mark_Evans said:
I do see the wingman as a force multiplier for an any mission working with a manned aircraft but would be interested in what it can do when flying solo.
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Indeed and it will also be interesting when UASs configured for the air to air role [against other UASs] are widely deployed.
 
H

hauritz

Well-Known Member
Defence has clarified the Ghost Bat procurement plan ... but not really
www.defenceconnect.com.au

Defence clarifies Ghost Bat procurement plan

Details have emerged regarding the Commonwealth government’s proposed expansion of the Loyal Wingman program. During the Coalition government’s official campaign launch in Brisbane on Sunday (
www.defenceconnect.com.au www.defenceconnect.com.au

Turns out that 10? aircraft will be entering service from around 2024-25. No indication as to how many of these aircraft will eventually be acquired.

To me that is the interesting part. These aircraft will be built in Australia using 70% locally sources components. I can see why they would want to maintain a relatively low rate of construction to keep the production line open for as long as possible. Really if you can keep that production line open it increases your chances of winning new orders down the line as well as allowing for an increase in production during times of national emergency. My understanding is that the drone itself is only expected to have a service life of a few hundred flying hours which should allow for an ongoing build program.

I am really not sure how many of these aircraft you would need to keep operational at any given time. Most air forces only seem to order relatively small batches of UAVs. Ultimately it will depend on how many more roles will be found for this aircraft.

Another interesting consideration is how these aircraft will continue to evolve. The Ghost Bat will have interchangeable mission modules. Other UAV designs being developed around the world go even further with detachable and changeable wings and power plants that can be swapped out depending on the mission.
 
Mark_Evans

Mark_Evans

Member
hauritz said:
Defence has clarified the Ghost Bat procurement plan ... but not really
www.defenceconnect.com.au

Defence clarifies Ghost Bat procurement plan

Details have emerged regarding the Commonwealth government’s proposed expansion of the Loyal Wingman program. During the Coalition government’s official campaign launch in Brisbane on Sunday (
www.defenceconnect.com.au www.defenceconnect.com.au

Turns out that 10? aircraft will be entering service from around 2024-25. No indication as to how many of these aircraft will eventually be acquired.

To me that is the interesting part. These aircraft will be built in Australia using 70% locally sources components. I can see why they would want to maintain a relatively low rate of construction to keep the production line open for as long as possible. Really if you can keep that production line open it increases your chances of winning new orders down the line as well as allowing for an increase in production during times of national emergency. My understanding is that the drone itself is only expected to have a service life of a few hundred flying hours which should allow for an ongoing build program.

I am really not sure how many of these aircraft you would need to keep operational at any given time. Most air forces only seem to order relatively small batches of UAVs. Ultimately it will depend on how many more roles will be found for this aircraft.

Another interesting consideration is how these aircraft will continue to evolve. The Ghost Bat will have interchangeable mission modules. Other UAV designs being developed around the world go even further with detachable and changeable wings and power plants that can be swapped out depending on the mission.
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Where are you hearing only few hundred flight hours? I can see it being something that can be sacrificed in a mission but I would hope it can get a couple of thousand flight hours.
Boeing pitching it to the US as part of U.S Air Force’s Skyborg program but if it wins that program it would be built in America. Australia could be making it and exporting to our allies so we have that to keep in mind.
 
Mark_Evans

Mark_Evans

Member
hauritz said:
They are going to be built cheap with no expectation of a long life.
www.aspistrategist.org.au

Design of Boeing’s loyal wingman gives clues about performance and roles | The Strategist

If Boeing’s Airpower Teaming System proves to be viable, the Royal Australian Air Force of the future is likely to have scores, maybe hundreds, of fast drones. The concept of the ATS is to provide ...
www.aspistrategist.org.au www.aspistrategist.org.au
I expect most of them will probably stay crated up.
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Yes, it does mention long term storage.
I guess being modular at least lets you transfer mission module and engine to a newer frame.
 
John Newman

John Newman

The Bunker Group
When it come to the MQ-28A Ghost Bat (or Loyal Wingman or ATS or whatever you want to call it), it’s worth stopping and have a look at the 2020 Defence Strategic Update:


At the time of the 2020 DSU, the ‘Teaming Air Vehicle’ project had a budget allocation of $7.4b-$11b, time frame from approx 2027 through to 2040 and beyond (and there are recent media reports the project might advance to start in 2025).

That’s a $hit load of money over a very long period of time too.

So what does that tell me?

Assuming all testing, etc, goes to plan then we will probably see a long term ‘continuous’ build program, a scalable production line for local requirements and potential export orders too.

And I can well imagine there will be the initial A production version, then B, C, D, etc, versions.

Get the AI and other tech matured, then it should be easily fitted to different types and sizes of future airframes.

The sky’s the limit (pun intended).
 
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hauritz

Well-Known Member
For all the talk of near fighter like performance I think what you currently have is an aircraft that can fly at high subsonic speeds but couldn't really match a fighter in terms of acceleration, climb rate, payload or any of that stuff. To really deliver that level of performance would still require bucket loads of money.

There are still a lot of unknowns as well. The engine hasn't been revealed although initially it will probably be a light weight commercial jet engine. If you want a completely sovereign capability however you might have to see these engines manufactured in Australia. In fact you might need military spec engines built as well.

I tend to agree that you will eventually have many variants optimised for just about every conceivable mission and that will see the $7.4b-$11b budget estimate get chewed up pretty quickly.
 
R

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
There is still a lot of things to be added to this capability that have not yet been announced including.
1/ Basing: we don't know where they are to be based and basing facilities will need to be built including Hangars, Admin, Log, Maintenance, and living quarters.
2/ Operating Unit: who is operating them, does the RAAF need to raise an entire new Wing? At least one new Sqn will need to be raised.
3/ Training: a Trg Unit will need to be raised, for both Air and Maintenance Crews, will need its own facilities depending on whether it gets its own Aircraft(A-la the F-35A OCU) or uses common use Aircraft alongside the operational Sqns like all other RAAF Aircraft.
 
ngatimozart

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Redlands18 said:
There is still a lot of things to be added to this capability that have not yet been announced including.
1/ Basing: we don't know where they are to be based and basing facilities will need to be built including Hangars, Admin, Log, Maintenance, and living quarters.
2/ Operating Unit: who is operating them, does the RAAF need to raise an entire new Wing? At least one new Sqn will need to be raised.
3/ Training: a Trg Unit will need to be raised, for both Air and Maintenance Crews, will need its own facilities depending on whether it gets its own Aircraft(A-la the F-35A OCU) or uses common use Aircraft alongside the operational Sqns like all other RAAF Aircraft.
Click to expand...
I know where I can get six Fokker Triplanes if you're interested. One careful owner with an interest in rings, hobbits, wizards, and orcs.
 
H

hauritz

Well-Known Member
Canada has also complained about the reckless manner and risky behaviour Chinese fighters engage in when intercepting military aircraft. This is where loyal wingman could be a useful deterrent.
 
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