Going Boeing
Well-Known Member
My interpretation of that article is that it will be used to develop the autonomous technology for use in other vessels, I don’t expect to see ACPB’s used as operational USV’s.
Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates 2.0
- Thread starter OPSSG
- Start date
The issue is many competent people move on between projects because they are made redundant or there are no suitable opportunities within the sustainment side (which is the only game in town when there are no designs or builds underway). Even those who remain in various "make work" projects, have difficulty staying up to date with the latest practices.I was going to add this comment as a postscript to the ASPI article I linked yesterday but thought it was more appropriate to make it a second post.
One thing I missed which still concerns me - timing. Buried in the text was a reference to having Australia's first SSN in the water by "the end of the next decade" i.e. 2040. There are then vague references to bringing that forward. So what is the plan? Without some realistic build start and finish dates this remains a problem both for industry and workforce training.
Nobody plans a career requiring 4+ years of tertiary study, with few alternative career paths in this country, without a prospective job waiting at the end of it. Likewise construction capability - who would incur capital costs installing unique equipment for a contract that may or may not be tendered? These issues are highlighted in this article today.
Warning of defence shipbuilding skills shortage amid uncertainty over local submarine build
The defence shipbuilding industry warns of a skills crisis as it awaits details of how much of the nuclear submarine build will happen in Australia.www.abc.net.au
This then leads to greater risk of time and cost blowouts, which can adversely affect capability in the mean time. Sorry to be negative, as I support the SSN decision and think the Collins Class replacement remains a national priority of some urgency. But I do not see any urgency in this timing.
If there were alternative industries that were training and giving experience to suitable work forces, i.e. automotive, with its design, R&D, test & certification, facilities/plant/industrial/production engineering, various trades, paraprofessional, professional, contracts, procurement, supply chain, maintenance, quality etc. it wouldn't be so bad. Many technical, professional and paraprofessional skills are highly transferable.
Reality check, sole operator or small business trades, financial service providers, lawyers, carers, hospitality & tourism, and even todays outsourced defence do not provide transferable skills.
Redlands18
Well-Known Member
I was going to add this comment as a postscript to the ASPI article I linked yesterday but thought it was more appropriate to make it a second post.
One thing I missed which still concerns me - timing. Buried in the text was a reference to having Australia's first SSN in the water by "the end of the next decade" i.e. 2040. There are then vague references to bringing that forward. So what is the plan? Without some realistic build start and finish dates this remains a problem both for industry and workforce training.
Nobody plans a career requiring 4+ years of tertiary study, with few alternative career paths in this country, without a prospective job waiting at the end of it. Likewise construction capability - who would incur capital costs installing unique equipment for a contract that may or may not be tendered? These issues are highlighted in this article today.
Warning of defence shipbuilding skills shortage amid uncertainty over local submarine build
The defence shipbuilding industry warns of a skills crisis as it awaits details of how much of the nuclear submarine build will happen in Australia.
This then leads to greater risk of time and cost blowouts, which can adversely affect capability in the mean time. Sorry to be negative, as I support the SSN decision and think the Collins Class replacement remains a national priority of some urgency. But I do not see any urgency in this timing.
Defence scrambles to train nuclear scientists for 'exciting roles' on AUKUS program
Students and public servants are being enticed with generous scholarships to study nuclear science and engineering so they can begin "exciting roles" on Australia's new nuclear submarine program.
abc.net.au
The Government announced 300 Scholarships late last year worth $20,000 PP a year for Nuclear Scientist and Engineers. There can be little doubt that the Government is going to have to put up pretty decent incentives. Dutton seemed to indicate a couple of months ago that the TF is way ahead of schedule and that a decision on the SSNs will possibly happen well ahead of the 18 months. The decision to switch to Nuclear appears to have only happened in mid 2020, things seems to be happening very quickly incl.
The TF well ahead of schedule
The Scholarship up and running
An extra 45 Hectares of land purchased at Osborn
The formal agreement to share Nuclear propulsion has been signed
A new East Coast Base
I'm just wondering how the platform will do without a crew to keep it afloat.
R&D platforms need to make it through the R&D process.
It would be a tough sell to convince people to invest heavily themselves in that path.
IMO they will have to look at providing full scholarships and stipends for people wanting to go down that path. Then retraining or alternative employment when getting out or full retirement pensions that kick at 40. I am not convinced the $20k py is going to swing it. There are better deals for PE teachers in Dubbo or nurses in broken hill.
education.nsw.gov.au
If you train as a physics teacher, Technical studies or a math teacher, $30k scholarship. $30k on completion. And paid work while studying.
Schools are pretty much completely depleted of talent. Enrolments in Chemistry and Physics have been suffering horrendous slides in enrolment for decades. Students that do make it through are extremely weak in skills and knowledge and demotivated, they are worse than blank slates. Schools push students to generic STEM or senior science or away to safer subjects in the humanities which are easier to staff.
There is a huge STEM pipeline collapse underway, not just in Australia, in most nations including the UK and US. NSW government is flat out spending $20m to buy STEM teachers from overseas.
Universities aren't much better. Most doctorates are given to international students, who have had very weak undergraduate experiences, and with most universities having a policy of 100% graduation with international PhD students, supervisors end up writing thesis's. These same post docs are now unable to teach first year, or even high school level chemistry and physics. Many come from families where their parents were professors overseas and had basically inherited the title. They are attracted to positions supported by government where there is no pressure to actually demonstrate knowledge or produce anything. Many do fail basic literacy and numeracy tests, to become school teachers when their academic dreams fail.
Universities are businesses these days.
Nuclear physics tend to fall between Physics and Chemistry, inline with it essentially being forbidden in Australia. There is no business in running these types of courses. These are highly specialized skills and knowledge, not something you can pad out with a couple of feeder units in a business degree.
Even where it does exist, good luck getting students to pipeline in sufficient numbers. UNSW has low single digit enrolments (nearly all internationals) in its masters of nuclear engineering. The entire number of "physics" graduates annually, from all universities, in Australia is so small, you could fit the last 20 years of graduates onto a single side A4 page.
ANSTO has single digit positions as the "civilian employer" in the nuclear industry in Australia. Research funding has been extremely unpredictable in this space.
I wish ministers (shadow ministers as well) would go and talk to actual submariners currently serving about how they feel and the issues they face and why most can't wait to get out. And we want to attract quadruple the number and with more expertise?
We have had significant crewing issues with subs for more than 20 years. I'm not sure we have really address that issue.
I am suspicious that AUKUS may be about the UK and US absorbing our submarine capability rather than Australia developing its own robust sovereign SSN capabilities.
IMO they will have to look at providing full scholarships and stipends for people wanting to go down that path. Then retraining or alternative employment when getting out or full retirement pensions that kick at 40. I am not convinced the $20k py is going to swing it. There are better deals for PE teachers in Dubbo or nurses in broken hill.
Mid-Career Transition to Teaching Program
The Mid-Career Transition to Teaching Program supports the best and brightest professionals to retrain as teachers of high-demand subject areas.
education.nsw.gov.au
Schools are pretty much completely depleted of talent. Enrolments in Chemistry and Physics have been suffering horrendous slides in enrolment for decades. Students that do make it through are extremely weak in skills and knowledge and demotivated, they are worse than blank slates. Schools push students to generic STEM or senior science or away to safer subjects in the humanities which are easier to staff.
There is a huge STEM pipeline collapse underway, not just in Australia, in most nations including the UK and US. NSW government is flat out spending $20m to buy STEM teachers from overseas.
Universities aren't much better. Most doctorates are given to international students, who have had very weak undergraduate experiences, and with most universities having a policy of 100% graduation with international PhD students, supervisors end up writing thesis's. These same post docs are now unable to teach first year, or even high school level chemistry and physics. Many come from families where their parents were professors overseas and had basically inherited the title. They are attracted to positions supported by government where there is no pressure to actually demonstrate knowledge or produce anything. Many do fail basic literacy and numeracy tests, to become school teachers when their academic dreams fail.
Universities are businesses these days.
Nuclear physics tend to fall between Physics and Chemistry, inline with it essentially being forbidden in Australia. There is no business in running these types of courses. These are highly specialized skills and knowledge, not something you can pad out with a couple of feeder units in a business degree.
Even where it does exist, good luck getting students to pipeline in sufficient numbers. UNSW has low single digit enrolments (nearly all internationals) in its masters of nuclear engineering. The entire number of "physics" graduates annually, from all universities, in Australia is so small, you could fit the last 20 years of graduates onto a single side A4 page.
ANSTO has single digit positions as the "civilian employer" in the nuclear industry in Australia. Research funding has been extremely unpredictable in this space.
I wish ministers (shadow ministers as well) would go and talk to actual submariners currently serving about how they feel and the issues they face and why most can't wait to get out. And we want to attract quadruple the number and with more expertise?
We have had significant crewing issues with subs for more than 20 years. I'm not sure we have really address that issue.
I am suspicious that AUKUS may be about the UK and US absorbing our submarine capability rather than Australia developing its own robust sovereign SSN capabilities.
John Newman
The Bunker Group
My first thought was the same, she was getting the new exhaust arrangement as fitted to her three UK sisters.
But...
I took a screen shot from the video and it appears that the scaf is covering the starboard crane.
You’ll notice the scaf is ‘T’ shaped, the main part of the scaf is covering the crane post from left to right, but also projects forward over the crane boom.
Compare the two photos below, boom with and without scaf:
John Newman
The Bunker Group
Choules and her sisters have two mounting positions for Phalanx, one forward of the superstructure, the other on the top rear of the superstructure.
But I do remember reading a while back that only one was being fitted (same can be said for the two new AORs, two positions, but only one fitted).
It is peace time, and only so many Phalanx available too.
Fittings a second unit, in time of a potential future conflict, wouldn’t be out of the question.
The photo below shows the two mounting positions, you can see two ‘square’ mounting frames:
I agree but I stopped the video as it first panned past Choules (right at the beginning of the video) and there appeared to be scaffolding around the port side of the gantry. Granted I could not get a good view of it.
As I said just speculation but it would be a sensible modification.
John Newman
The Bunker Group
I’ve often wondered why Choules, after being in RAN hands for more than 10 years, hasn’t had the same exhaust modification her three RFA sisters have had, those mods were done many years ago too.
Is it budgetary or deemed not necessary? Maybe the RAN concluded the problem (or assumed problem?), isn’t an issue.
Takao
The Bunker Group
Two quibbles - lift does not necessarily require escorts, HMAS Adelaide didn't to go to Tonga for instance. Depending against the threat we may naturally have full freedom of action at sea - neither the North Vietnamese Navy nor the North Korean Navy posed a threat to our sea lift for instance. Secondly, it's unlikely we'd be supporting multiple theatres simultaneously. HMAS Canberra requires as many escorts as HMAS Canberra and HMAS Adelaide together; adding lift does not guarantee a need to increase the number of escorts. It's the fundamental basis of success for the convoy system in the North Atlantic in both wars.
Having said that, we do (in my view) need more DDG/FFG. I know of an Army paper that was put forward arguing for three additional Hunter class to be done before 2040 and more than one CA (esp. Leahy) emphasised in the early 00's that SEA 1400 / 4000 was Army's most important project.
Like everything though, it's a balance between fighting and logistics. You can have all the fighting in the world and have no log - you'll fail. Or have all the log in the world with little to no fight - you'll fail.
"The entire number of physics graduates, annually from all universities in Australia is so small you could fit the last 20 years of graduates onto a single A4 page"It would be a tough sell to convince people to invest heavily themselves in that path.
IMO they will have to look at providing full scholarships and stipends for people wanting to go down that path. Then retraining or alternative employment when getting out or full retirement pensions that kick at 40. I am not convinced the $20k py is going to swing it. There are better deals for PE teachers in Dubbo or nurses in broken hill.
If you train as a physics teacher, Technical studies or a math teacher, $30k scholarship. $30k on completion. And paid work while studying.Mid-Career Transition to Teaching Program
The Mid-Career Transition to Teaching Program supports the best and brightest professionals to retrain as teachers of high-demand subject areas.
Schools are pretty much completely depleted of talent. Enrolments in Chemistry and Physics have been suffering horrendous slides in enrolment for decades. Students that do make it through are extremely weak in skills and knowledge and demotivated, they are worse than blank slates. Schools push students to generic STEM or senior science or away to safer subjects in the humanities which are easier to staff.
There is a huge STEM pipeline collapse underway, not just in Australia, in most nations including the UK and US. NSW government is flat out spending $20m to buy STEM teachers from overseas.
Universities aren't much better. Most doctorates are given to international students, who have had very weak undergraduate experiences, and with most universities having a policy of 100% graduation with international PhD students, supervisors end up writing thesis's. These same post docs are now unable to teach first year, or even high school level chemistry and physics. Many come from families where their parents were professors overseas and had basically inherited the title. They are attracted to positions supported by government where there is no pressure to actually demonstrate knowledge or produce anything. Many do fail basic literacy and numeracy tests, to become school teachers when their academic dreams fail.
Universities are businesses these days.
Nuclear physics tend to fall between Physics and Chemistry, inline with it essentially being forbidden in Australia. There is no business in running these types of courses. These are highly specialized skills and knowledge, not something you can pad out with a couple of feeder units in a business degree.
Even where it does exist, good luck getting students to pipeline in sufficient numbers. UNSW has low single digit enrolments (nearly all internationals) in its masters of nuclear engineering. The entire number of "physics" graduates annually, from all universities, in Australia is so small, you could fit the last 20 years of graduates onto a single side A4 page.
ANSTO has single digit positions as the "civilian employer" in the nuclear industry in Australia. Research funding has been extremely unpredictable in this space.
I wish ministers (shadow ministers as well) would go and talk to actual submariners currently serving about how they feel and the issues they face and why most can't wait to get out. And we want to attract quadruple the number and with more expertise?
We have had significant crewing issues with subs for more than 20 years. I'm not sure we have really address that issue.
I am suspicious that AUKUS may be about the UK and US absorbing our submarine capability rather than Australia developing its own robust sovereign SSN capabilities.
Do you have any proof of that? As a former UNSW Eng Grad, that seems like a pretty ludicrous statement tbh.
Bachelor of Science (Advanced Science - Physics) was a well supported degree whilst I was there. If I look on the graduates register there's pages and pages of graduates in the last few years alone.
As you mentioned regarding Universities are business' in Australia, there's now going to be large institutional demand for Nuclear science and Nuclear Engineering, despite there being little demand before, there's going to be huge demand now. I know I would certainly steer my kids towards those streams at the moment, as there's going to be plenty of opportunity within the industry in the next 2 decades.
Australian Universities are huge, even comparatively on a global scale, they have the ability to recruit world class staff to meet the demand if they have to. ANU and UNSW are two of the best Universities on the planet.
I don't have huge concerns with Australia meeting the intellectual capacity required for a sovereign nuclear industry given the amount the Government is likely to invest in starting it...
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Thanks
I had wondered if we were going down that path as the scaffolding appeared particularly high over the flight deck.
Wait and see.
Also interested if a permanent hanger will be installed.
One one the UK's Bay class is scheduled to get a hanger.
Cheers S
Ok perhaps there is no shortage of physicists, and the federal government, state government, the US, Canada, UK are all merely deluded. That in Australia 45% of teachers teaching physics are unqualified to do so.
It takes a long time to create a physics graduate. Very few leave with just a graduate degree.
For example, the 2002 3rd year cohort of 66 students at Sydney uni, counted 2 degree graduates in that year. (Australian Physics Bachelors and Honours graduates in industry: Where are they? How ell prepared are they? Sharma and ) Typically less than 20% of graduates go into the workforce, 80% continue with further study.
Should be easy.
A bit light on detail but new maintenance facilities announced (from Sydney Morning Herald):
Garden Island maintenance centre to house Australian warships in Sydney (smh.com.au)
Should be interesting to see the specifics...
John Newman
The Bunker Group
Project SEA 2200 (JSS project) that will replace Choules (plus an additional ship), officially kicks of in 2025-26, not too far away, from the start of the project at least.
Why would the Government decide, or plan, to pull Choules out of service in the near future for a couple of years to add a hangar?
It doesn’t make sense (to me at least), to undertake such a major upgrade when Choules is possibly entering its last 10 or so years of its service life.
John Newman
The Bunker Group
I read the article, it’s a puff piece, bit of nothing really (typical SMH).
Apart from Sydney’s Garden Island, it also mentions Cairns, Darwin and Henderson, all four locations currently have maintenance facilities, nothing new there.
The reality is probably more about an expansion/update of existing facilities.
Reminds me of the old saying, “nothing to see here, move along ...”
There were 666 3rd year physics undergraduates at Australian universities in 2003, 747 in 2004 & 870 in 2005. Could you list all those who graduated out of those 2283 on one A4 page?
And that's only three of the last twenty years.
https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/11246155.pdf
I thought the more interesting part of the article was Joyce announcing a merchant fleet in line with Labor’s proposal. Presumably the MUA will be thrilled!
(ps mods I’m not saying anything good or bad about either side of politics, just making an observation. Please put the ban hammer down.)
Has anyone seen any further details on what the LNP are proposing?
Meanwhile in the real world being wet, homesick and frightened 
"HMAS Parramatta prepares to conduct a replenishment at sea with HMAS Supply during the Fleet Certification Period 2022, conducted off Australia's east coast." Image Source : ADF Image Library
"HMAS Parramatta prepares to conduct a replenishment at sea with HMAS Supply during the Fleet Certification Period 2022, conducted off Australia's east coast." Image Source : ADF Image Library
