Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates 2.0

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
They built a replacement for their carrier, we cancelled our project.
Their carrier evolution was interesting. Considering where our experience with a proper carrier with cats and traps. They converted a ww2 wooden deck light carrier into a harrier carrier. Then developed their own dedicated. Yet we fumbled even getting a carrier.

He had extensive service in the CFA DDGs and once you’ve done that as a warfare officer going back to an RN designed frigate(Rivers) is like going back to kindergarten. His priority has always been above water warfare which of course is an anathema to us ASW types.
He is naturally wrong re the Hunters but does make a case for increasing missile capacity assuming that it’s still only 32 Cells.
Well how many standard missiles can we put to sea now compared to say the mid 1990's. Less than half of what we had even back in 1994?
The threats are less now? Imagine if we had half the hard points on the RAAF..
 

Morgo

Well-Known Member
Let's not forget that Shackleton is more than just a former CN. ASPI conveniently leave it out of his biography, but he has been (still is?) the Managing Director of Gibbs and Cox (Australia). How on earth can you take an article from him arguing we should buy Arleigh Burke's as unbiased or unquestionable is beyond me. That he has been given any air time on this topic raises an eyebrow about journo's and ASPI - for different reasons.

As an aside, I'm trying to find the first time something said Hunter has 32 cells. All my searching leads back to ASPI, specifically Marcus Hellyer. Anyone got any idea? Noting that the design review isn't finalised, there isn't anything official from the RAN or DOD out there (not that I'm tracking), so I'm trying to find where this 'fact' comes from. I can't help shake the idea that this entire premise ('too few VLS!') is built on someone's guess/opinion.
It's utter stupidity.

If you look at the RN design it looks like there is room to replace the 2 x 24 Sea Ceptor cells (in front of the Mk 41 and between the funnel and the mission bay) with 2 x 24 Mk 41, giving you a total of 72 cells:

https://navalpost.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/Type-26-CITY-CLASS-B-1024x461.jpg

Not too shabby.

Not enough for you? Really want to build something to complement / replace the Hobarts? Then build a variant that gets rid of the mission bay and replaces it with VLS. It looks like there's enough real estate there to fit a huge number of cells if you were so inclined. On paper, in this space (20m x 15m) you could fit 2 x 61 cell arrays (8.7m x 6.3m) and create a 100+ cell monster. This would give you broadly the same layout as an AB anyway in an otherwise common hull with a world class sub hunter.

I know that none of this considers impact on weight / stability / penetration / cost / speed / range. My point isn't that any of the above is what's going to happen (it's almost certainly not, and who knows anyway per Ngati's note above), but the idea that you would need to scrap the current cutting edge design which is about to go into production and start from scratch / go for a legacy design because you need more cells is just dumb. There looks to be plenty of flexibility in the design if that's what you want.
 

Morgo

Well-Known Member
The Type 26 reference design has a 24 cell Mk 41 VLS, i.e. 3x8 cell modules in a 2x12 arrangement, plus 48 cells for Sea Ceptor arranged in four 6 cell groups forward of the Mk41 and another four aft of the funnel, over the integrated mission bay.

Each 4x6 Sea Ceptor group take up about as much deck space as the 24 cell mk-41, but obviously not as much depth and would weigh a lot less.

Graphics of the Hunter show 32 cells arranged as 4x8 cell where the Type 26 has them as 2x12, suggesting, so long as stability could be maintained 48 cells in a 4x12 arrangement would be possible with the available volume. Sacrificing some mission bay volume, and again dependent on stability, an additional 216 to 24 cells could be fitted aft of the funnel.

Take this a step further, a stretch aft of the funnel could potentially provide sufficient volume and stability for the 48 cells forward, 48 cells aft of the funnel, volume for a second GT and extra fuel. Time to do some modeling and tank tests I think, and its not just what we can do here, there is AUKUS to tap into remember.

Ha! You beat me to it!
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Their carrier evolution was interesting. Considering where our experience with a proper carrier with cats and traps. They converted a ww2 wooden deck light carrier into a harrier carrier. Then developed their own dedicated. Yet we fumbled even getting a carrier.



Well how many standard missiles can we put to sea now compared to say the mid 1990's. Less than half of what we had even back in 1994?
The threats are less now? Imagine if we had half the hard points on the RAAF..
Nine ships with Mk-13 GMLS, so 9x40 assuming a full Standard loadout, 360. verses a current 144 assuming all SM-2 and no ESSM. ESSM now has a similar envelope to SM-1 so its not as bad as it seems but still not as good as it should be.

The fourth Hobart still annoys me, three governments had the chance to order it and all failed to do so. Personally I believe the second they decided not to replace the DDGs they should have ordered six Hobarts to at least replace the FFGs.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Dave Shackleton is no fool but I must say subtlety is not his strong suit.
The ex CN (99 - 02) is my junior Officer era and I totally understand his bias.
He had extensive service in the CFA DDGs and once you’ve done that as a warfare officer going back to an RN designed ASW frigate(Rivers) is like going back to kindergarten. His priority has always been above water warfare which of course is an anathema to us ASW types.
He is naturally wrong re the Hunters but does make a case for increasing missile capacity assuming that it’s still only 32 Cells.
The issue with the RN kit is it was predominantly best of the best 1940s and 50s tech, then they ran out of money and just kept building evolutions of the Type 12, the very best WWII conceived ASW escort ever designed, into the 1970s. All the newer stuff was hamstrung by funding driven compromise, the exceptions being the Type 82 (cancelled after one ship due to cost), the Batch 3 Type 22 (evolved post Falklands as a replacement for war losses) and the Type 23 (evolved post Falklands when the lessons were still fresh in every ones minds).

The UK basically skipped a couple of generations. The US built the Forrest Shermans, Hulls and then the Charles F Adams (Perths) post war while the Battles and Darings were equivalent to the US Allen M Sumner and Gearing classes, before skipping straight to the County Class DDG/DLG. The US also built Norfolk, and Mitscher DLs before the Coontz, Leahy and Belknap DLGs.

The issue I believe with Brit gear was they built comparatively few hulls, with the exception of the Type 12 variants, meaning they were basically a navy of not fully sorted prototypes until the later Type 22s and Type 42s. They were rarely able to build what they actually wanted to build and when they could, it was never in the numbers required or with all the planned systems.

It's interesting reading up on what they didn't build, for example the board beam Type 21 with Sea Wolf, the fully sorted double ended Type 43 DDG with for and aft Sea Dart, as well as Sea Wolf, and a Sea King ASW helicopter.
 

Takao

The Bunker Group
The Type 26 reference design has a 24 cell Mk 41 VLS, i.e. 3x8 cell modules in a 2x12 arrangement, plus 48 cells for Sea Ceptor arranged in four 6 cell groups forward of the Mk41 and another four aft of the funnel, over the integrated mission bay.

Each 4x6 Sea Ceptor group take up about as much deck space as the 24 cell mk-41, but obviously not as much depth and would weigh a lot less.

Graphics of the Hunter show 32 cells arranged as 4x8 cell where the Type 26 has them as 2x12, suggesting, so long as stability could be maintained 48 cells in a 4x12 arrangement would be possible with the available volume. Sacrificing some mission bay volume, and again dependent on stability, an additional 216 to 24 cells could be fitted aft of the funnel.

Take this a step further, a stretch aft of the funnel could potentially provide sufficient volume and stability for the 48 cells forward, 48 cells aft of the funnel, volume for a second GT and extra fuel. Time to do some modeling and tank tests I think, and its not just what we can do here, there is AUKUS to tap into remember.

Yup - there is the reference design and other imagery about Type 26s, but not Hunter's. Also noting that PDR just started, I'm sure I haven't missed something from the RAN or DOD as it's simply too early. And as you point out, there are options that I'm sure the naval architects and RAN peeps are considering.

I'm just trying to work out if it's possible to find where it slipped from "reference design has 32 VLS cells but we are doing AS mods first so wait out" to "OMG 32 cells!!! sky iz falling!!"
 

Takao

The Bunker Group
Nine ships with Mk-13 GMLS, so 9x40 assuming a full Standard loadout, 360. verses a current 144 assuming all SM-2 and no ESSM. ESSM now has a similar envelope to SM-1 so its not as bad as it seems but still not as good as it should be.
And there is that argument that 360 SM-1 is not necessarily better than 144 SM-2; the greater range and speed of the SM-2 can allow greater and further intercepts. It also has more powerful HE, greater ECCM, and better terminal guidance.

So back to @StingrayOZ 's comment about hardpoints - we pretty much have. With F-35 internal only we've come close to halving the number of F-111 and F/A-18A+ hardpoints. But, the F-35 allows a much better capability. With internal loads it can go places 90s aircraft can't, with improved precision, warhead, and ECCM it's weapons are pound for pound better. It underscores the problem with narrowly focusing on # VLS - would we seriously suggest trading F-35s for some B-36's (note that @StingrayOZ has not said this nor argued this, I'm using a hyperbolic argument)?
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
And there is that argument that 360 SM-1 is not necessarily better than 144 SM-2; the greater range and speed of the SM-2 can allow greater and further intercepts. It also has more powerful HE, greater ECCM, and better terminal guidance.

So back to @StingrayOZ 's comment about hardpoints - we pretty much have. With F-35 internal only we've come close to halving the number of F-111 and F/A-18A+ hardpoints. But, the F-35 allows a much better capability. With internal loads it can go places 90s aircraft can't, with improved precision, warhead, and ECCM it's weapons are pound for pound better. It underscores the problem with narrowly focusing on # VLS - would we seriously suggest trading F-35s for some B-36's (note that @StingrayOZ has not said this nor argued this, I'm using a hyperbolic argument)?
Throw SM-6 into the equation as well as ESSM Block 2 and you start getting a very different picture. Then there is RAM Block 2 which I believe is to become available in a soft launch VLS configuration, compatible with Mk-41, but also the new triple launchers that can also quad pack them as they currently do with Sea Ceptor

VLS_3_Cell_ExLS_Launcher_Product_Card_8.5x11_042419.pdf (lockheedmartin.com)

VLS_Host_ExLS_Launcher_Product_Card_8.5x11_042419.pdf (lockheedmartin.com)

Now I am not suggesting these be fitted to the Arafuras, but maybe they could be an option for the ANZACs, LHDs and AORs. I would definitely be looking at them for any potentially more warlike supplement to the Arafuras. Four, or even only two of these would completely change the self defence capability of any of our current platforms.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
So back to @StingrayOZ 's comment about hardpoints - we pretty much have. With F-35 internal only we've come close to halving the number of F-111 and F/A-18A+ hardpoints.
I don't want to get too far down this rabbit hole, as it was a bit of a throw away comment. Getting in to the mindset of a Shackleton...
Internal hard points.. That is a specific way of looking at it.

AFAIK
F-18 had 9 hardpoints. x 72
F-111 had 9 hard points (2 internal) x 12

The F-35 has 10. (4 internal) x 72
The F-18SH has 11 x 12 (leaving growlers out)

While not all hardpoints are equal (a Sidewinder isn't the same as a 2000lb jdam), and not all planes are equal, it would seem the RAAF is doing "ok". Its not like the F-18s were replaced with Hawks which have only 5 hardpoint and are lesser platforms in size, range, capability. The drama that was unleashed when the decommissioned the F-111's was like the world was coming to an end. To this day there are people who want to dig up those cut up frames, weld them together, and re-engine them and put them back to cover the "capability gap". (despite the P8 with LRASM being a much better platform here today). Im not arguing the reduction of the RAAF, but that broadly, some metrics should keep broadly simular.

Certainly big dumb metrics isn't the point. But with Dutton saying war is absolutely imminent and its like the 1930's, lets say he is perfectly right. We are probably less prepared for a peer conflict than we were in any period in the last 70 years.

If we wanted a modern equivalent of what we had for a surface force back in 1994 it would be more like 3 Burkes, 6 Hobarts, 3 Anzacs. 3x96=288, 6x48=288, 3x8=24. 600 even.

What is the bet in 3 years time the RAN looks like ~7 Anzac's, 1 in upgrade, 1 hobart, 2 in upgrade, 1 Hunter still in construction. 104... A Tico would carry more than the entire fleet.

So when people like Shackleton start jumping up and down, they are worried that in 3 years time we have a force in broad dumb terms perhaps of the order of 6 times less capable than it should be for a high intensity peer conflict.

Now ESSM is a great missile, and SM-1 an average. But China isn't making smaller ships. Threats aren't decreasing, munitions are getting smarter, longer ranged and more evasive. In peace time, or against asymmetric threats where you will only be firing a few missiles capability of quantity stands strong.

But SHTF all out peer US/China war? Even if we just fill them with ESSM, and they were magical and could take on all threats, ships, land strike, planes, missiles, and quad packed them, we are still probably 50% short in this big dumb metric comparison. Welding a few extra cells to a Anzac/Hunter/Hobart isn't going to solve this kind of gulf. VLS cells themselves are getting bigger, divide our cells by ~3 for hypersonics. A 32 cell launcher on Hunter becomes a 12 cell launcher.

We certainly can't count on the US saving Australia either. There are no cruisers, they are all gone, essentially confined to port. The early burkes are also on the way out, and those 5 years the US forgot to build any surface ships, built LCS's and Zumwalts. The back log for repairs, refits for surface and submarines means the US will be flat our mustering enough for CBG duties alone (and there is less of those and less availability too).

I'm not sure building burkes is the solution, there would have to be more discussions about that. But I also don't think we should get too flustered if we built 3 more Hobart's like its going to break the RAN's/ADF/AU back. Even as a 20 year temporary measure so Anzacs isn't serving into the 2040's or 2050's. The US isn't flooding the 2nd hand ship market anymore with WW2 specials. World will be hungry for ships, just like we see Ukraine is hungry for everything.

Due to project slippage, dithering and escalation of threats, IMO Australia should probably look at having two full surface ship production lines. That can address our current problems in surface combatants ships, and be adapted to help support the sub program when that gets back into action.
 
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ddxx

Well-Known Member
I wonder if these discussions would be less likely to occur if Defence released regular, more detailed updates on major projects like we see in the US and many other countries. Other than little bits and pieces out of Senate Estimates, we haven't had a true wholistic spec update on Hunter in years now - Defence's spec sheet still even refers to the original bid displacement, length and beam etc.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I wonder if these discussions would be less likely to occur if Defence released regular, more detailed updates on major projects like we see in the US and many other countries. Other than little bits and pieces out of Senate Estimates, we haven't had a true wholistic spec update on Hunter in years now - Defence's spec sheet still even refers to the original bid displacement, length and beam etc.
One of the side effects of gutting the public service is they currently lack the people required to track and report on projects. Add in that a large proportion of middle managers in the public service are ex defence senior NCOs and middle ranking officers (lots of blinkers, totem poles and "yes sir's", that private industry didn't want, and the data that is passed up is at best of questionable integrity.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
Well *if* the Hunter program is cancelled, it would be a huge collapse for Australia. That is another massive project completely canned half way through.

To the level that international companies may stop bidding on projects and leave the market entirely. How does it look if say the uk and canada get fine capable ships and Australia doesn't? Who looks bad and at fault in that situation? BAE?No.

Particularly if the project is cancelled before building starts. Can't blame the low level worker, salaries or unions for that. Or even another party.

I would even argue it puts the nuclear sub program at risk. Good luck getting SSN without BAE involved and when you have burnt the last couple of companies and nations.
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
Well *if* the Hunter program is cancelled, it would be a huge collapse for Australia. That is another massive project completely canned half way through.

To the level that international companies may stop bidding on projects and leave the market entirely. How does it look if say the uk and canada get fine capable ships and Australia doesn't? Who looks bad and at fault in that situation? BAE?No.

Particularly if the project is cancelled before building starts. Can't blame the low level worker, salaries or unions for that. Or even another party.

I would even argue it puts the nuclear sub program at risk. Good luck getting SSN without BAE involved and when you have burnt the last couple of companies and nations.
Yea there is no way we can burn Britain and BAE the way we did France and Naval Group, we can live without Naval Group, BAE is a very different story.
 

Going Boeing

Well-Known Member
Throw SM-6 into the equation as well as ESSM Block 2 and you start getting a very different picture. Then there is RAM Block 2 which I believe is to become available in a soft launch VLS configuration, compatible with Mk-41, but also the new triple launchers that can also quad pack them as they currently do with Sea Ceptor

VLS_3_Cell_ExLS_Launcher_Product_Card_8.5x11_042419.pdf (lockheedmartin.com)

VLS_Host_ExLS_Launcher_Product_Card_8.5x11_042419.pdf (lockheedmartin.com)

Now I am not suggesting these be fitted to the Arafuras, but maybe they could be an option for the ANZACs, LHDs and AORs. I would definitely be looking at them for any potentially more warlike supplement to the Arafuras. Four, or even only two of these would completely change the self defence capability of any of our current platforms.
The increased options for the LockMart VLS system will add significant flexibility for warship designers to have increased & balanced missile loads on future vessels.

The new EJECT VLS proposal from Northrop Grumman will also offer increased options - including future hypersonic missiles which will require a VLS with increased dimension. The main advantage is far less contamination & corrosion of the VLS tube, ship deck & superstructure as well as exposed electronics caused by the missiles rocket motor exhaust.
Northrop Grumman EJECT

Stingray, the Super Hornet fleet is 24 F-18F’s (1 Sqn) and 11 (soon to be 12) EA-18G’s (6 Sqn) so there’s a few more hard points than shown on your post. The recently ordered long range missiles should make these very capable platforms if they get good targeting information.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The irony is that all of these troubled procurements and projects were kicked off by the side of politics that is cancelling them and most of the gear we are relying on and life extending, well past its use by date, was bought by the other side and widely criticized for years as not good enough. All I have to say is where would we be today without the ANZACs, Collins, Blackhawks, Seahawks, ASLAVs and Bushmasters etc. Even the old Perenties.

It's not, despite appearances, a political problem, it's a public sector problem, i.e. we used to have an independent public service that was expected to provide independent and honest advice without fear or favor. Now its all about towing the party line, not rocking the boat, covering you arse, and working out what the government of the day wants you to do, right or wrong.
 

John Newman

The Bunker Group
The irony is that all of these troubled procurements and projects were kicked off by the side of politics that is cancelling them and most of the gear we are relying on and life extending, well past its use by date, was bought by the other side and widely criticized for years as not good enough. All I have to say is where would we be today without the ANZACs, Collins, Blackhawks, Seahawks, ASLAVs and Bushmasters etc. Even the old Perenties.

It's not, despite appearances, a political problem, it's a public sector problem, i.e. we used to have an independent public service that was expected to provide independent and honest advice without fear or favor. Now its all about towing the party line, not rocking the boat, covering you arse, and working out what the government of the day wants you to do, right or wrong.
V, mate, so what are all of these projects that are, or have, been cancelled?

Maybe you can give us a detailed list?


(PS, First on my list is when the newly elected Hawke ALP Government didn’t proceed with the replacement of the carrier HMAS Melbourne.)
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
V, mate, so what are all of these projects that are, or have, been cancelled?

Maybe you can give us a detailed list?


(PS, First on my list is when the newly elected Hawke ALP Government didn’t proceed with the replacement of the carrier HMAS Melbourne.)
Like I said the problem wasn't political but while you are on the topic, the Frazer government decided not to replace Melbourne before the election but didn't announce it. Declassified Cabinet papers from the time show this.

MRH-90, Tiger, Guardian, Sea 1000, off the top of my head. The only project I can think of that Labor cancelled was the Super Sea Sprite, a type whose reason for existing had disappeared before it was ordered.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I was doing a quick search for the NAA carrier replacement papers and found this one again, the 1964 RAN proposal to replace Melbourne.

RAN proposal for a replacement aircraft carrier and fixed wing aircraft
Contents range 1964 - 1966
Series number A1945
Control symbol 244/3/64Access
status Open
Item ID1565492
 

Attachments

John Newman

The Bunker Group
Like I said the problem wasn't political but while you are on the topic, the Frazer government decided not to replace Melbourne before the election but didn't announce it. Declassified Cabinet papers from the time show this.

MRH-90, Tiger, Guardian, Sea 1000, off the top of my head. The only project I can think of that Labor cancelled was the Super Sea Sprite, a type whose reason for existing had disappeared before it was ordered.
In regards to HMAS Melbourne I clearly remember the new ALP Def Min, Gordon Scholes, made the announcement in March 1983 regarding the cancellation of the project, that is a historical fact (I still have a newspaper cutting from the time filed away somewhere too).

To roll the clock back a bit further, I also clearly remember under the Whitlam ALP Government, the new Def Min, Lance Barnard, canceled the RANs DDL project in mid to late 1973.

Cancelling Defence projects is not a ‘disease’ of just one side of politics, it has happened on both sides.

As for SEA 1000, well clearly there is a reason we are not proceeding with a fleet of SSGs and switching to a fleet of SSNs.

MRH-90, would anyone argue with the reasons to switch to the current version of Blackhawk? I think not.

Same argument applies with switching from Tiger ARH to AH-64E.

As to the reasons behind the cancellation of Sky/SeaGuardian, that is an interesting one.

From what little that has been reported, the Government was looking for money to redirect to another project with a higher priority and asked Defence to list a project that could be chopped.

Why was that project selected for the chop? Well who knows, but I suspect it is a capability that may be close to being superseded by time and technology, and if I remember correctly the USAF doesn’t want to continue to procure more MQ-9.


Again, projects get the chop, they get the chop under both sides of politics, not just one side over the other.
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I was doing a quick search for the NAA carrier replacement papers and found this one again, the 1964 RAN proposal to replace Melbourne.

RAN proposal for a replacement aircraft carrier and fixed wing aircraft
Contents range 1964 - 1966
Series number A1945
Control symbol 244/3/64Access
status Open
Item ID1565492
I’m a bit confused on your timeline?
FFGs we’re not on any horizon in 66
The link puts the timeline in the early 80’s
I’m not often quoting the leader of the One Nation Party but “please explain”

I was CAGASW in 1980 and the reason why I resigned was the failure to replace Melbourne. I was disgusted with the failure to recognise the importance of organic ASW aircraft both fixed wing and rotary.
 
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