NZDF General discussion thread

Stuart M

Well-Known Member

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I have scant knowledge about internal NZ politics but from an outsiders POV every signal she sends seems to be an exercise in virtue signalling and faux empathy.
it may be honourable to search for good intent but that’s not realpolitik and can lead to humiliation and a job at the UN.
Recognition of a changing world where autocracies ignore the common good is a first step but until the NZ public, who currently seem to be at one with their PM, accept that change the status quo will remain and Chinese expansionism unnoticed.
You are pretty well much on the mark.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
What Cindy says and does, like most politicians, are two different things. NZ has just agreed to an intelligence sharing agreement with Japan

Japan, New Zealand in talks to share information and intelligence - Nikkei Asia

Now this is fine, and it's really is not a cost impedance, but nor does it impose on NZ great commitment.
What I would like to see is the intelligence agreement expanded to a defence agreement and then we would be talking about something worthwhile.
 

RegR

Well-Known Member
Just as an addition to the comments above re airframes , can I please add into the mix the lighter end , I feel we need a C235 size aircraft, maybe 6 as a min. Firstly, The smaller size would allow us to service all the smaller strips throughout the Pacific and NZ that we havent been to since the loss of the Andovers. The Pacific is our front yard and getting back to the isolated communities is a must . Only a few years ago on Cyclone relief (Vanuatu I think, more coffee needed) the Wx had made the airstrips were unsupportable to large aircraft like C130 so we sent B200s, what a joke as a "mover " of pers or freight. Secondly, Im sure the only reason the C130Hs have served us so well is the fact they were supported by the Bristols, Daks and Andovers over time. They would take some of the "Tactical" load off the Js.
And before we go down the ...RAAF getting rid of C27s , please no, Ive been told the cost per hour is not far off the C130 and the loading systems are not compatible , hence the RAAF are getting rid of.
Side bar , Love the KHI C2 , I was able to look around it when it popped into Wellington , very capable piece of kit , they would compliment the C17 perfectly.
Are the RAAF getting rid of the Spartans already?? I thought they were working well (like anything) in their intended role?
 

Gibbo

Well-Known Member
Cool, we'll go from a Govt who won't spend money on Defence due to principle to a Govt who won't spend money on Defence due to a need to find $1.7Bn+ Govt spending cuts... if I got any more excited about the prospect of NZ lifting defence spending I'd be asleep!:rolleyes:

Good news on the Japan intelligence deal though, yes let's see it bring something tangible... 3 x C1 transports does indeed have appeal!

So we've seen talk about the 'need for a conversation' about defence spending in NZ. We do indeed need that and the Ukraine & Solomons Islands / China Security deal have both helped push this to the forefront...who'd have thought this 3 months ago!?! However the way I see it there are 2 very distinct conversations that need to be had...
(1) a sustained lift in spending to give the NZDF more robustness in what it does, including equipment sorely needed to enable them to start actively monitoring our EEZ (& that of SouPac nations) and to free up equipment to enable that (eg SOPV to free up OPV; EMAC to free up P8) plus additional air transport.
(2) a move back into a more robust combat capable force structure... with a focus on Naval & Air (I'm not going to start a wish list of what that should look like)

The thing is these are very different conversations to have. #1 is going to be a hell of a lot easier to sell to the masses as it 's very easy to show the NZDF isn't resourced to provide an effective level of commitment to much of it's peacetime obligations. The thing is meeting this would actually have a very positive result on the NZDF's outputs... it's benefit not as 'soft' as many would like to think.
#2 is fast becoming a priority however it is going to be a much harder conversation to have and a lot more expensive... but it's got to be started soon.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is we need to get conversation #1 underway immediately while working up to #2... the trouble at the moment is both the conversations are being lumped into one and it's just not gaining traction.
 

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
Just briefly on the 757 replacements, from the DCP19 (as it appears to be the last publicly available published information):

Investment decisions planned for 2026

Future Strategic air Mobility

179. Operations in the Pacific and globally will require an air transport option for the movement of personnel, equipment and stores over long ranges. The eventual withdrawal from service of the current Boeing 757 fleet will allow for the procurement of a strategic airlift capability that meets capability requirements across a range of tasks.

Indicative dates:
Industry engagement commences – 2021
Request for tender – 2024
Introduction into Service – 2028

Indicative capital cost:
From $300m–$600m
IMO the project scope and costs should be reviewed (post 2023 election) if anything substantial and sustainable is to be acquired and operated.

Because with indicative capital costs of $300-$600m back in 2019 (mind you before the project has been scoped), at the lower end (and if we have a ambivalent government during the project definition stage etc) then "worse case" this funding could potentially provide something along the line of two A321neo's (as per this early 2019 op-ed).

Although perhaps at the higher end of the funding range Defence could have been looking at the likes of (eg) two A-400M, or two C-2, or possibly two KC-30A should AAR become a requirement (google searches suggest these aircraft of these types, although no doubt others too, could be bought for up to NZ$600m).

The reason for suggesting the project scope and costs should be reviewed (post the 2023 election) is DCP19 appears to be following at the time "current/peacetime" like-for-like replacement and benign environment thought process.

The world situation has now changed (which has been stated by our own defence and foreign affairs analysts, even the Opposition in some respects i.e. it's just not me or us here saying that).

And without getting into future "fantasy fleets" all I would like to say next in relation to the project is .... "we" need to change the mindset whereby "2" has become the new "3" (in which governments of all hues have funded eg 2 Frigates or OPV's instead of 3 or 2 757's (and their replacements) instead of 3 etc). So for the project a minimum of 3 has to be the new normal, although even that may not be good enough (for this changing world) so I agree with Stuart that 4 would be a better new normal as it allows for better sustainment.

If we look at the RAAF C-17 example, their initial buy was for 4 aircraft (although further aircraft were bought later on to better sustain operations due to "deeper" maintenance unavailability periods).

The other thing I would like to say in relation to the project is that one aircraft type will not in any way adequately support the range of tasks our (small) NZDF will need to fulfill in a (larger) world. The NZDF (like the ADF) can operate anywhere from Europe (as they did in two world wars, more recently in Bosnia and today supporting NATO with the Ukraine war), in-between (the Middle East to Asia to South East Asia) to our wider backyard region (the wider Pacific and towards South America) and south into the deep Southern Oceans and the Antarctic).

So we need two aircraft types, one being with the rear ramp to allow the carrying of assets such as vehicles, heavy armored vehicles, artillery, helicopters and munitions etc. And we need the "airliner" fuselage type for troop transport, medivac, VIP, civilian transport eg Antarctica and ideally air-to-air refueling to extend our reach.

The Opposition encountered these exact issues several years ago when former DefMin Gerry Brownlee advocated and proposed the acquisition of C-17 aircraft. The delays (which saw us lose out on the Whitetails) were, from my reading of the released Ministerial briefings at the time, largely caused by Treasury and Cabinet dithering and re-reviewing "how to make square pegs fit into round holes" as Defence were required to perform the utterly impossible task of devolving 757 operations to allow for incoming C-17's.

Clearly the two aircraft type were (are) needed, but Defence were not permitted to do so, as they had to operate within their existing budgets and outputs. A clear anfd tragic case of bureaucracy knowing "what's best", than the experts (Defence).

(I would like to see "Big Jerry" remain an MP post 2023/2026, as his insights into the early C-17 debacle may be invaluable to get these sorts of issues resolved)!
 

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
One might do with the problems we've had only having 5 C130s, particularly if we use them hard.
True and the money is always there to buy an additional aircraft or two (we see that when we see what the pollies waste hundreds of millions/billions on their pet projects), after all we are only talking about 1-2 extra aircraft (which are usually 20-30-40 year investments anyway), not say an extra 5 or 6 more (or dozen)!

Of course there needs to ongoing operational funding to ensure we have the crews to fly and support them, so I acknowledge there are other ongoing costs, however that again is simply adding a little bit more to an existing budget i.e. we are not talking about a 50% increase or doubling operational budgets etc!
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
True and the money is always there to buy an additional aircraft or two (we see that when we see what the pollies waste hundreds of millions/billions on their pet projects), after all we are only talking about 1-2 extra aircraft (which are usually 20-30-40 year investments anyway), not say an extra 5 or 6 more (or dozen)!

Of course there needs to ongoing operational funding to ensure we have the crews to fly and support them, so I acknowledge there are other ongoing costs, however that again is simply adding a little bit more to an existing budget i.e. we are not talking about a 50% increase or doubling operational budgets etc!
Last years operational budget for NZDF was $4.2 billion from memory. At 2% GDP it should be in the order of $6.6 billion or so, and the country can afford it.
 

Rob c

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Last years operational budget for NZDF was $4.2 billion from memory. At 2% GDP it should be in the order of $6.6 billion or so, and the country can afford it.
This would have included the capital charge and deprecation, though I last did the calculation some years ago (7-10) it amounted then to 42% of the budget. my personal thoughts on this is to scrap the Government charge and have a fix percentage plus depreciation go into a defence capital replacement account. If we set a total figure ,including depreciation of between 40 and 45% to be available for capital expenditure and retained in this account, this would give some surety going forward in relation to capital expenditure.
 

opti

New Member
It's difficult to see what we can credibly do in response to chinese escalations in the pacific, what thoughts do people have about what possible positionings we can achieve when they dwarf our capabilities on nearly every single axis.
 

RubiconNZ

The Wanderer
Interesting excerpt from ACT’s Free Press today, Please note I’ve included this here in order to highlight a conversation rather that press any political parties point. It paints in broad strokes and is quite simplistic, but is aimed at the general population. I’m pleased this kind of dialogue is being put out in the public domain. I’ll be interested if the current climate causes an iota of additional monies to the defence budget when announced this May. ( I’m not holding my breath.)

Time For 2 Per Cent
Free Press frets about the state of freedom and democracy around the world, we hate to go on about it, but the problem is getting worse. Horrible as the Ukraine situation is, it’s the Pacific we should be worried about.

So far the Pacific Reset, turning our foreign policy towards our own backyard, has resulted in a Chinese naval base 2,000 kilometres off the coast of Australia. We are going to need to do more and at this point the Australians are leading the way.

The speed of response to the Ukraine situation shows how loose the ANZAC alliance has become. It’s one thing to have independent foreign policy, but did we lag the Aussies in responding to Ukraine because we have a different view, or because we weren’t ready?

Here’s a clue. In the lead up to ANZAC day, Free Press sold poppies with a veteran who flew the Hercules aircraft that went to Europe two months after the invasion. He collected it from the Manufacturer in the U.S. and flew it back to New Zealand, in 1965. He is in great shape, current Air Force personnel tell us the planes need more maintenance than he does.

Fonterra, a cooperative that processes and markets dairy products, showed greater moral clarity and took faster action than the Government of New Zealand. We can’t afford to be asleep behind the Aussies in the Pacific, but we are.

Australia has got its defence spending up to 2 per cent of its (substantially larger) GDP, while New Zealand lags at 1.5. In practical terms, that means Australia is upgrading its 20 year old ANZAC frigates. They won’t be ANZAC frigates this time, but an Australian class.

New Zealand has had no air combat wing since 2001, despite claiming an Exclusive Economic Zone of over 4 million kilometres by drawing a circle around every outlying island we could find. Australia, meanwhile, is buying dozens of the latest fifth generation F-35 stealth fighters.

That is not to mention Australia’s AUKUS pact with Britain and America to build nuclear submarines or the Quad arrangement that aligns Australia with India, Japan and America in an Indo-Pacific alliance.

Altogether the concept of an ANZAC force in the South Pacific is becoming impractical but it would be the best deal for New Zealand. Australia’s GDP is exactly six times New Zealand’s. The best hope for dealing with common threats is an interoperable ANZAC force that is funded six parts by Australia and one part New Zealand.

That would mean, if Australia is buying a dozen frigates, New Zealand should put in for another two. If they have six squadrons of F-35s, New Zealand should be putting in for one. That would be a proportional response to defending the region. There may be some capabilities, such as nuclear submarines, that are always beyond New Zealand’s reach, but that is all the more reason to do the things that we can do.

There are two alternatives. The hope is that Australia judges it has to defend New Zealand regardless of our own efforts, and we are able to successfully free ride. The alternative is that they note there’s already now a Chinese naval base 2000 km off their coast, that the priority is to defend Australia.

The right thing to do is to avoid forcing that choice on them. We should recognise that Helen Clark’s ‘benign strategic environment’ has gone, and the dark side of human nature never left us. The Aussies are at least five years ahead of us in realising this sad reality. A good start would be telling them we want in for an interoperable ANZAC defence force, then putting our money where our mouth is.​
 
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kiwi in exile

Active Member
It's difficult to see what we can credibly do in response to chinese escalations in the pacific, what thoughts do people have about what possible positionings we can achieve when they dwarf our capabilities on nearly every single axis.
Sadly not a lot in purely defence terms. Hopefully we can play a role in preventing more Pacific neighbours going down this path via aid/diplomacy etc. RNZ today reported that we are more trade dependent on China than we were in 2018, when they bought 25% of our exports, now its a 1/3.

This development would almost demand another P8 be purchesed, +/- an unmanned system (Sea Guardian). Instead we are deferring capability (SOPV) and selling off stock (LAVs)
 

RubiconNZ

The Wanderer
Sadly not a lot in purely defence terms. Hopefully we can play a role in preventing more Pacific neighbours going down this path via aid/diplomacy etc. RNZ today reported that we are more trade dependent on China than we were in 2018, when they bought 25% of our exports, now its a 1/3.

This development would almost demand another P8 be purchesed, +/- an unmanned system (Sea Guardian). Instead we are deferring capability (SOPV) and selling off stock (LAVs)
I believe the best we can hope for with this current government is retaining the full expenditure of the $20 billion boost under the last coalition. (Labour, NZ First, Greens)
 
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