Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates 2.0

Going Boeing

Well-Known Member
Looks good.
Won't be long before that Radar array will be black.
I thought that there was discussion about painting it so
MB
A question for our experienced members, would fitting curved deflectors on the front of the Anzacs exhaust stacks to vector exhaust fumes further aft be effective in significantly reducing exhaust residue on the radar mast? I know that, on occasions, there will be wind conditions blowing towards the mast but if the fumes can be deflected aft during most operations, it should have the desired effect.
 

John Newman

The Bunker Group
A question for our experienced members, would fitting curved deflectors on the front of the Anzacs exhaust stacks to vector exhaust fumes further aft be effective in significantly reducing exhaust residue on the radar mast? I know that, on occasions, there will be wind conditions blowing towards the mast but if the fumes can be deflected aft during most operations, it should have the desired effect.
A better question to ask might be this:

“Does the eventual build up of soot on the surfaces of the radar cause a negative effect on the radar performance?”

If the answer is no, then the problem is cosmetic and not performance.

May not be a good look over time, but does it really matter in the big scheme of things?
 

vonnoobie

Well-Known Member
A better question to ask might be this:

“Does the eventual build up of soot on the surfaces of the radar cause a negative effect on the radar performance?”

If the answer is no, then the problem is cosmetic and not performance.

May not be a good look over time, but does it really matter in the big scheme of things?
From what I believe to be a logical point of view I would imagine it does and that doesnt factor in if any of the soot is making its way inside the internals and causing potential harm there, But at same time I might be over thinking how bad soot is for radar performance. I imagine they are testing it at the moment to find if it needs a proper fix or if they be fine getting a good scrub down after each long deployment.
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
A better question to ask might be this:

“Does the eventual build up of soot on the surfaces of the radar cause a negative effect on the radar performance?”

If the answer is no, then the problem is cosmetic and not performance.

May not be a good look over time, but does it really matter in the big scheme of things?
I think it does matter, pride in one’s ship matters but we’ve had this discussion on here several times so let’s agree to disagree.
Even the RN has seen the light with the new T26 HMS Glasgow and has painted the radars and masts, likely to be effected by exhausts, black.


the trouble with this post is that it’s not a T26! That’s HMS Diamond. I don’t know what finger trouble occurred with my link but point made anyway.
 
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Pusser01

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
From what I believe to be a logical point of view I would imagine it does and that doesnt factor in if any of the soot is making its way inside the internals and causing potential harm there, But at same time I might be over thinking how bad soot is for radar performance. I imagine they are testing it at the moment to find if it needs a proper fix or if they be fine getting a good scrub down after each long deployment.
The masts are generally cleaned once a year. This involves building scaffolding around the structure while the ship is conducting a maintenance activity. Operators I've spoken to have indicated the soot buildup doesn't have any discernable effect on the radars' performance.
 

alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
It helps. No vessel (without a similar system) is going to be ramming or harassing it, whereas it also has a very authoritive presence for anyone who happens to be in the area when one rocks up. Arguably it is more of a deterrence - though it could certainly be used for self-defence or as a warning device (i.e. a shot across the bow). 50cals could also achieve this, though they are less visible and impactful overall - especially towards larger vessels which may begin to appear more often in our EEZ.

If it is anything like the Typhoons, then they can be difficult to maintain, much like any system worth having.

I'm not an SME, I just happened to work on the ACPBs for a while in the past. After living in austere, I'm glad we are moving to the Arafura-class over the course of the decade.
Good day all

The fact the ABF Cape's are civilian manned vessels may explain the lack of an auto-cannon. Noting the evolved Naval Capes may end up with border force may also be the reason that these are equipped in the same manner as the ABF vessels. That is man operated 50 cal for ABF vessels and it appears this is the same on the navy Capes.

The level of armament is consistent with that required for law enforcement.

Just for the record; ABF crew are civilians (same as police officers) which is different from the USGC who are part of the armed services.
 

CJR

Active Member
Does anyone in the know have any idea why we don't have 16 VLS behind the funnels instead of 8? Looks like there is room for 16. Apologies if this has been answered previously.
Way back when the ANZACs were just intended as patrol frigates "coz cheap", more recently "coz top weight and stability". Though previous discussions on here have said, rumor has it (no better citations given...) that next round of upgrades they may get the extra VLS cells...
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
Does anyone in the know have any idea why we don't have 16 VLS behind the funnels instead of 8? Looks like there is room for 16. Apologies if this has been answered previously.
Also the Mk 41 VLS goes down about 3 levels so while there may be room on top, doesn't mean there is underneath. The weight issue is so critical that they can't even fit a non deck penetrating CIWS in that spot.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
There was a model back when the ANZAC was first selected with 16VLS, Harpoon between the masts and two Phalanx, one forward of the bridge, one atop the hangar. I can't recall if it had a 5" or 3" gun.

This makes me wonder if downsizing the 5" to a 76 or 57mm could free up space and weight for other systems, while improving self defence ability against missiles and swarm attacks.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Also the Mk 41 VLS goes down about 3 levels so while there may be room on top, doesn't mean there is underneath. The weight issue is so critical that they can't even fit a non deck penetrating CIWS in that spot.
You wouldn't happen to know what length VLS the ANZACs have? This has been a matter of discussion in various forums for years, some say Tactical length, some Strategic, some say Point Defence. It has even been said that only strategic length VLS have actually ever been fitted to ships and the other lengths were proposed but not built.

I do know that the ANZAC WIP was based on fitting a second 8 Cell VLS (for which there was space and weight) for a total of 16 SM-2 (I don't recall if they were MR or ER). This suggests that the original fit was at least Tactical Length, but I have also heard they were Strategic length.
 

Pusser01

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
You wouldn't happen to know what length VLS the ANZACs have? This has been a matter of discussion in various forums for years, some say Tactical length, some Strategic, some say Point Defence. It has even been said that only strategic length VLS have actually ever been fitted to ships and the other lengths were proposed but not built.

I do know that the ANZAC WIP was based on fitting a second 8 Cell VLS (for which there was space and weight) for a total of 16 SM-2 (I don't recall if they were MR or ER). This suggests that the original fit was at least Tactical Length, but I have also heard they were Strategic length.
I had posted on here a little while ago that the VLS fitted to the Anzac class aft of the funnels on 02 deck is the tactical length. There originally was also space & weight for an 8-cell self-defence forward of the bridge on the deck where the Harpoon is now fitted. Cheers.
 

ddxx

Well-Known Member
This makes me wonder if downsizing the 5" to a 76 or 57mm could free up space and weight for other systems, while improving self defence ability against missiles and swarm attacks.
Moving to a 57mm could potentially make some sense - the weight savings alone would be rather substantial. That alongside the weight savings being achieved through moving to NSM would combine to provide some much needed flexibility for the type's next ~20 years of service. It might be worth considering for the youngest Anzacs in the fleet.

If Arafura's eventual gun is the 57mm (Bofors 57 Mk3), having a single type across the Anzacs and Arafura's could also present some benefits.
 

Richo99

Active Member
There was a model back when the ANZAC was first selected with 16VLS, Harpoon between the masts and two Phalanx, one forward of the bridge, one atop the hangar. I can't recall if it had a 5" or 3" gun.

This makes me wonder if downsizing the 5" to a 76 or 57mm could free up space and weight for other systems, while improving self defence ability against missiles and swarm attacks.
careful with that line of thinking - i suggested that a few months back and was informed in no uncertain terms that 5inch was sacrosanct for NGS.
 

Going Boeing

Well-Known Member
The fact the ABF Cape's are civilian manned vessels may explain the lack of an auto-cannon. Noting the evolved Naval Capes may end up with border force may also be the reason that these are equipped in the same manner as the ABF vessels. That is man operated 50 cal for ABF vessels and it appears this is the same on the navy Capes.

The level of armament is consistent with that required for law enforcement.

Just for the record; ABF crew are civilians (same as police officers) which is different from the USGC who are part of the armed services.
It would make sense to remove the Armidale class’ 25mm canon as they retire and fit them to the Evolved Capes. The weapons should have enough life left to see out these vessels time in RAN service. When the E Capes are transferred to the ABF, the guns can be removed to make them suitable for those operations.
 
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alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
careful with that line of thinking - i suggested that a few months back and was informed in no uncertain terms that 5inch was sacrosanct for NGS.
NGS is one thing but so is supportability and the fact that DDG uses the mod 4 gun system as will the Hunter Class. Hopefully these will eventually have access to smart rounds (noting the CCS upgrade and mod 4 are supposed to be able to use extended range ammunition. According to the BAE blurb the system will be able to handle extended range and smart munitions

baes_brochure_Mk 45 Naval Gun System_201605_digital.pdf

The last project to develop smart 127mm rounds was shelved but there is work going on for the HVR rounds to be fired by the Mk45. In addition it appears the Volcano rounds may be an option.

SAS 2019: BAE System's Vulcano precision guided munition for Naval 5 inch & 155mm guns - Naval News

I understand the ANZAC guns have also been upgraded to the mod 4 (but with the 52 calibre gun). This could be the CCS upgrade as I have never been able to ascertain precisely what the upgrade was.

baes_ds_Mk 45 Mod 2 CCS Upgrade_redesign_digital.pdf .

On the subject of top weight. The Mk45 has considerable weight below the CoG in the magazine. This is considerably more than the mount weight (see link below). Putting a Mk 110 57mm on the deck may actually make things worse. Naval Architecture is not simple, weights, their location and hull strength as well trim all need to be considered (hence my constant harping about speculative changes to vessels .... not being easy).

baes_ds_Mk 45 AHS_201808_digital.pdf

So once again .... it is not simple and there are programmes in place to add more lethal munitions into the system. The automated operation of the gun systems would mean that this capability would make the Mki45 very capable beyond just NGS.
 

alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
It would make sense to remove the Armidale class’ 25mm canon as they retire and fit them to the Evolved Capes. The weapons should have enough life left to see out these vessels time in RAN service. When the E Capes are transferred to the ABF, the guns can be removed to make them suitable for those operations.
You are going to have to justify this. Why, what it the mission outcome?. Why is the extra expense of fitting, maintaining and then removing them justified? What are the targets you are engaging? The RAN Capes are a temporary fix to ensure the Naval element of border force is properly equipped pending the OPV coming online. A second ACPB is about to be decommissioned. These vessel are lasting just 15 years which is one of the reasons Volk has issues with them.

If you had suggested fitting the 50 cal mini-typhoon then I would not have been so abrupt (at least this can be justified for the Naval vessels who have trained personnel and it is a simpler system and there is much less hull stress). Fitting 'stuff' is not easy and adds to the cost of maintaining a capability for peacetime enforcement an interdiction.

IMHO for the ABF role a 7.62 GPMG is completely adequate. The 50 cal on a man operated mount is iffy (noting these HMG's will be operated by non-military personnel). These vessels are no intended for a warfighting situation.

Upgrading a temporary vessel is a waste of funds IMHO. Spend the money on the OPV's and other emerging assets.
 

Going Boeing

Well-Known Member
You are going to have to justify this. Why, what it the mission outcome?. Why is the extra expense of fitting, maintaining and then removing them justified? What are the targets you are engaging? The RAN Capes are a temporary fix to ensure the Naval element of border force is properly equipped pending the OPV coming online. A second ACPB is about to be decommissioned. These vessel are lasting just 15 years which is one of the reasons Volk has issues with them.

If you had suggested fitting the 50 cal mini-typhoon then I would not have been so abrupt (at least this can be justified for the Naval vessels who have trained personnel and it is a simpler system and there is much less hull stress). Fitting 'stuff' is not easy and adds to the cost of maintaining a capability for peacetime enforcement an interdiction.

IMHO for the ABF role a 7.62 GPMG is completely adequate. The 50 cal on a man operated mount is iffy (noting these HMG's will be operated by non-military personnel). These vessels are no intended for a warfighting situation.

Upgrading a temporary vessel is a waste of funds IMHO. Spend the money on the OPV's and other emerging assets.
Your point about whether it’s worth the cost of fitting for such a short service life is valid.

My post was based on the fact that the previous patrol boats mounted a significant weapon (Attack class - Bofors 40, Fremantle class - Bofors 40/60 and the 25mm on the Armidale class) and thus it’s logical that a requirement for a mounted gun is still valid. Whilst there are significant costs with mounting such a weapon, the recycling of the Armidale’s armament negates acquisition costs.

Have there been occasions during our patrol boat operations where the presence of a larger calibre mounted gun has made the difference in apprehending offenders? If not, then it’s not worth fitting them on the Capes as they are expected to have a short service life.
 

alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Your point about whether it’s worth the cost of fitting for such a short service life is valid.

My post was based on the fact that the previous patrol boats mounted a significant weapon (Attack class - Bofors 40, Fremantle class - Bofors 40/60 and the 25mm on the Armidale class) and thus it’s logical that a requirement for a mounted gun is still valid. Whilst there are significant costs with mounting such a weapon, the recycling of the Armidale’s armament negates acquisition costs.

Have there been occasions during our patrol boat operations where the presence of a larger calibre mounted gun has made the difference in apprehending offenders? If not, then it’s not worth fitting them on the Capes as they are expected to have a short service life.
Yes the attack class had a 40/60 but these were conceived in a period of regional conflict (Indonesian emergency etc) but these were never considered as a platform that anything more that a coastal asset (MTB, MGM capability). The Fremantle had a 40/60 but was adopted from a design for a FAC. This suggests more than chasing a fishing boats. Again they were only operated as a fishery and policing vessels. The original spec was was derived from a perceived wider risk looking at a coastal missile capability that would have required third party targeting.

The Capes, the Bays and the Naval Capes have not been for anything beyond the constabulary role
 

Milne Bay

Active Member
Yes the attack class had a 40/60 but these were conceived in a period of regional conflict (Indonesian emergency etc) but these were never considered as a platform that anything more that a coastal asset (MTB, MGM capability). The Fremantle had a 40/60 but was adopted from a design for a FAC. This suggests more than chasing a fishing boats. Again they were only operated as a fishery and policing vessels. The original spec was was derived from a perceived wider risk looking at a coastal missile capability that would have required third party targeting.

The Capes, the Bays and the Naval Capes have not been for anything beyond the constabulary role
The Arafura class is in a different league as far as capability is concerned.
I wonder if there has been a decision on the replacement of the 40mm Oto Marlin, apart from the interim Typhoon?
MB
 
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