The Russian-Ukrainian War Thread

phreeky

Active Member
3rd Mariupol' has basically fallen. Regardless of everything else, and the slow speed notwithstanding (slow compared to what though? major urban battles take time) Russia has succeeded in taking a large-ish city with many well armed defenders using a relatively small force, and relying heavily on rebel irregulars and even (rebel) reservists. Amidst the general failures of this war it is a success and it's important to look at it and see it for what it is. A half-destroyed city, most of its inhabitants fleeing or dead, 6 weeks of heavy fighting - a success.
The unknown is what "success" really looks like, not only in a near-term sense but in the long-term. Russia may well control Mariupol, and all signs available to a person like myself half a world away point to that very much being the case, but what's to say that Ukraine will stop counter-offensives of this city/region? For all we know, Ukraine may consider this Ukrainian territory (regardless of what Russian's may believe) and continue the fight until it's back in their hands. If foreign nations continue supplying Ukraine with the finances, aid, equipment, training and intelligence (and whatever else may be required) to regain control of all Ukrainian territory, how long can/will Russia go on?

Perhaps far-fetched, but what's to say that Ukraine stops there and doesn't continue on with Crimea? It is, after all, internationally recognised as part of Ukraine still.

Interestingly today I came across this video that, from an economic perspective, actually puts this scenario forward (The Price of War - Can Russia afford a long conflict):


Whether it's sound or not I don't know, my knowledge of economics is terrible, but I'm sure for those more economically knowledgeable it does bring up some interesting points of discussion. The short version being: the longer this drags on, the greater this advantages Ukraine - assuming foreign support remains strong.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
NBC is reporting a Russian diplomatic note saying that the USA’s arming the Ukraine will have consequences. This could mean nukes. Russia-Ukraine war live updates: Moscow warns U.S. against weaponizing Ukraine, vows renewed missile attacks on Kyiv after warship sinks
The Russians are trying to bully and bluff the Americans and NATO into cutting off weapons and other support to Ukraine, but they really don't have a leg to stand on. Because they attacked Ukraine, an independent sovereign state, in an unprovoked invasion, Ukraine has the right to seek help from the international community, which it has done. The Russians don't like pushback and being told no.
There are reports that Russia bombed Asovstal plant with strategic bombers, I guess this implies that the fortifications cannot be taken by ground forces? This would also mean that the factories are annihilated and of no further commercial use if Russia will annex the region?

How likely is it that Putin will end the war with the fall of Mariupol and the Asovstal plant and declare it a victory by May 9th? The only good thing about Russian propaganda is, that the Russians likely would swallow the sligthest success as a great victory.
Provide some sources for these alleged reports please.
Looks like theres som emerging data on the last hours of the Moskva. SAR radar seems to indicate its final position and potential rescue vessels alongside
full story from Naval NEws

HI Sutton video on the Moskva and the Slava cruisers in general.

Perhaps this an indication of things to come. The Russians have up until now purposely avoided as much collateral damage as possible.
The bolded bit refers. Don't know where you got that idea from. From what I can see there is much evidence of Russian atrocities and war crimes. The ICC already have war crimes investigators on the ground conducting enquires and gather evidence. There is no excuse for these atrocities at all regardless of the circumstances, and if there is evidence of an orchestrated pattern to them, charges of crimes against humanity may result. These acts are not the result of a cultured, enlightened, peaceful, intelligent nation but of a nation of people that are anything but, who revel in all that is evil and forbidden and are no better than the Nazis who murdered millions in WW2 because of a warped, evil, degenerate ideology. These war crimes and atrocities have shown us who the 21st century fascists are and it's not Ukraine, but Putin and his cronies who have dragged Russia into the cesspit.
The sinking of the Moskva and the brazen western military transfers may change the strategic analysis. Heavy strategic bombing maybe the Russian response. If so, I pity the civilians caught in the targeted cities.
Haha don't make me laugh. FYI Ukraine is perfectly and legally entitled to request help from other nations to defend itself from the unprovoked invasion by the Russian fascist Putin, to use the Ukrainian term. I suggest that you pull your head out of the sand, breath the fresh air and have a good look around you.

The Russians getting all upset about Ukrainian OPs inside Russian borders makes my heart reach out in sympathy - not. Tough luck. They only have themselves to blame. They aren't special and think that they can't attack a neighbour and be immune from attacks inside their borders? They should grow up and stop acting like a 2 year old toddler. There are consequences.
 

QEDdeq

Member
The fight in Donbas by Russian announcement from beginning of the operation basically one of the main goal. Putin already put a General that being known for doing grinding attrition type of war in Syria. This's the thing they're doing in Chechnya.

Ukranian knows that, that's why Zelensky frantically asking for much more heavier weapons system. They know this is going to be the decisive front in the whole war.
I agree with you that Russia could engage in a long phase of attacking the remaining urban centers of Donbass piece by piece. In fact they are positioning themselves to do that. But its going to be costly, we already see how they struggled to take for example Izium and to cross the Donets river. They way those engineers got ambushed when trying to setup a pontoon bridge just shows the complete lack of coordination of their armed forces. Its like they sent the engineers and told them 'do that' without having that operation properly covered by air and other land units working together to cover the bridging operation. It seems like until now Russians worked by orders like 'send unit x to do task y' but there is no overall plan and coordinated pushes where combined arms tactics are used.

Analyzing how the rebels fought and immediately you can see the difference, those guys have experience and despite not having the resources of the Russian regular army (some of their reservists use Mosin Nagants just to make an idea) but they fight more effectively because they show both experience and motivation. While some of the regular Russian Army look like they can't understand what they are doing there. Probably the appointment of Dvornikov is aimed at changing that and maybe the pause in fighting we see now means they are drawing detailed and coordinated pushes. But we are yet to see that. In my opinion as soon as they clear Mariupol the Russians will want to get out of the war with a victory. But they won't get it since Zelensky and his backers have no interest in it. So Russia will be stuck in a long war (80's Afghanistan style) or they will retreat and admit defeat which basically means massive internal problems inside Russia. The only way out of this conundrum is to escalate to the maximum, Stalin style, but I doubt that business elites inside Russia, who don't care about victory or defeat but only to preserve their business interests, will allow the regime to pursue this path of maximum escalation.

Intense rebel vs UAF combat footage in the area of the Ilych plant
 

GermanHerman

Active Member
Provide some sources for these alleged reports please.
This is allegedly shows the bombing of azovstal by a TU-22:


I don't have the expertise to say if it does or not, but all reports I'm aware of are based on this material.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
This is allegedly shows the bombing of azovstal by a TU-22:


I don't have the expertise to say if it does or not, but all reports I'm aware of are based on this material.
It doesn't show much at all. It could have been a Sturmovik for all we know :D
 

MotorManiac

New Member
It doesn't show much at all. It could have been a Sturmovik for all we know :D
It was on TV yesterday, that they targeted Asovstal was my speculation since the city is already destroyed, found this link:

 

koxinga

Well-Known Member
The longer this runs for, the worse it gets for Russia basically. Between the sanctions and the purges, plus the combat losses, it's not looking pretty for the Russians.
They are reaping what they sowed.

The idea that we need to somehow accomodate the Russians need for some kind of a facing saving victory in order to withdraw is an insult to the tens of thousands of innocent people that died in this conflict.

It is clear that Putin and the West, severely underestimated the resolve of ordinary Ukrainians. When the war started on 24 Feb, I spoke with one of my new staff, an Ukrainian lady to make sure she is in the right headspace. She was shocked and upset, but when I asked if she would be moving her family out of Lutsk, she replied with a hint of resignation mixed with determination, that the family will stay and they will fight to the end. At the point, I was convinced that it will not end well for Putin in Ukraine.
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
And in other news:



I've heard commentary that this was in part related to corruption in the section and the revelation that they'd been running an entirely imaginary network of intelligence resources in Ukraine.

Hard to say just yet but details may emerge.
 

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
3rd Mariupol' has basically fallen. Regardless of everything else, and the slow speed notwithstanding (slow compared to what though? major urban battles take time) Russia has succeeded in taking a large-ish city with many well armed defenders using a relatively small force, and relying heavily on rebel irregulars and even (rebel) reservists. Amidst the general failures of this war it is a success and it's important to look at it and see it for what it is. A half-destroyed city, most of its inhabitants fleeing or dead, 6 weeks of heavy fighting - a success.
It’s not slow compared to the 2017 Battle of Marawi; the details of which I provided in earlier posts in this thread.

The Russians have up until now purposely avoided as much collateral damage as possible.
During a war, states will make an effort to discredit adversaries while trying to build up sympathy and support for their own positions. They are designed to elicit strong emotions or to confuse and distract, often by trying to shape behaviour by manipulating information and human psychology.

There are limits to tolerance of this back and forth, within the framework of our forum rules — congrats on crossing the limits (on the whitewashing of Russian war crimes).

Below are pictures of the exhumation of the mass grave in Bucha. Mass graves found in formerly Russian occupied areas, and credible witness accounts of execution of civilians by the Russians in occupied areas, means intentional harm to civilians — likely war crimes.C2096971-98D3-483E-A3A7-EC9909658CD9.jpeg

I think the idea that russia is avoiding collateral damage stems from a false narative surrounding the bad performance of russian troops.
That is an interesting way of looking at it.
 
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MaxSP89

New Member
The Russians are trying to bully and bluff the Americans and NATO into cutting off weapons and other support to Ukraine, but they really don't have a leg to stand on. Because they attacked Ukraine, an independent sovereign state, in an unprovoked invasion, Ukraine has the right to seek help from the international community, which it has done. The Russians don't like pushback and being told no.
I really have to disagree. Nothing about this whole ordeal was unprovoked. NATO, and especially the US have been expanding their influence over Eastern Europe for years, ignoring and disregarding Russia's security concerns (and to one extent agreements). Months before it all went down, the Russian delegations were continuously demanding not to expand onto Ukraine, but it was all ignored. Which of course the US benefitted greatly from, especially on the economic side, as they managed to once again break the trade agreements Russia has been so desperately trying to make with Europe for the last two decades. Thus the provocation was indeed there, and an obvious one. I find it hard to believe the Kremlin decided to intervene randomly, "just because".

Now, whether it justified the military intervention, that's debatable. And what could the alternatives have been or looked like, I don't have the knowledge or ability to analyze.

And lastly, yes, Ukraine is a sovereign country and can choose to do whatever the majority of their people wish for. But what happens when some of these choices directly threaten the sovereignty of another country? That's quite a grey area, wouldn't you agree? If not, we'd still have Soviet ballistic missiles on Cuba. And judging by the list of military operations the US (and to an extent NATO) has launched in the last 30 years, I can't really call it a peaceful, purely defensive military alliance.
 
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phreeky

Active Member
NATO, and especially the US have been expanding their influence over Eastern Europe for years, ignoring and disregarding Russia's security concerns (and to one extent agreements).
And yet the first claim was that it's all about Neo-Nazis, so which is it? Before that, the troops were just there for exercises, remember?

Russia's changing justification is what should make it clear that they're just making excuses to expand, and didn't expect any real resistance. If that's not enough to set off your BS-radar, what about the fact that once they've taken this territory that they'll be surrounded by........more NATO members.
 

Atunga

Member
The unknown is what "success" really looks like, not only in a near-term sense but in the long-term. Russia may well control Mariupol, and all signs available to a person like myself half a world away point to that very much being the case, but what's to say that Ukraine will stop counter-offensives of this city/region? For all we know, Ukraine may consider this Ukrainian territory (regardless of what Russian's may believe) and continue the fight until it's back in their hands. If foreign nations continue supplying Ukraine with the finances, aid, equipment, training and intelligence (and whatever else may be required) to regain control of all Ukrainian territory, how long can/will Russia go on?

Perhaps far-fetched, but what's to say that Ukraine stops there and doesn't continue on with Crimea? It is, after all, internationally recognised as part of Ukraine still.

Interestingly today I came across this video that, from an economic perspective, actually puts this scenario forward (The Price of War - Can Russia afford a long conflict):


Whether it's sound or not I don't know, my knowledge of economics is terrible, but I'm sure for those more economically knowledgeable it does bring up some interesting points of discussion. The short version being: the longer this drags on, the greater this advantages Ukraine - assuming foreign support remains strong.
Advantage Ukraine? if Mariupol is totally destroyed in just six weeks, what will all of Ukraine look like in one year? There has to be a way out of this war, with casualties piling in both human life and the economic life of Ukraine and Russia it’s becoming hard for either side to back down.. I don’t see how this will end well for any side
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
And yet the first claim was that it's all about Neo-Nazis, so which is it? Before that, the troops were just there for exercises, remember?

Russia's changing justification is what should make it clear that they're just making excuses to expand, and didn't expect any real resistance. If that's not enough to set off your BS-radar, what about the fact that once they've taken this territory that they'll be surrounded by........more NATO members.

Well, it's straight out of the play book used back in 1939 to justify invading Finland - the USSR felt "threatened" by Finland and moved to secure their borders (by moving them several hundred miles West)

That invasion didn't go particularly well either, although the Fins were eventually forced to give up 10% or so of their lands - after the USSR had mobilised an army of a half million.
 

Capt. Ironpants

Active Member
In the midst of all the sad and distressing news coming out of Ukraine, there is one small bright spot:


I just wanted to share this with others here who could use a little good news for a change. Those returning recently are reportedly women, children and elders rather than the young men returning to fight as seen in earliest days.
 

Twain

Active Member
OSINT analysis of the Kramatorsk railyard strike


Key points

Yes Russia is using the Tochka-U in ukraine
Missiles (2) were launched from near Donetsk
Yes a russian unit known to be using the tochka-u was known to be in the donetsk area the day of the launch
The serial number and the location of the missile body mean nothing
Russia did fire the missiles at the train station

Pretty much all of this was already known but this puts it all together in one place
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
The unknown is what "success" really looks like, not only in a near-term sense but in the long-term. Russia may well control Mariupol, and all signs available to a person like myself half a world away point to that very much being the case, but what's to say that Ukraine will stop counter-offensives of this city/region? For all we know, Ukraine may consider this Ukrainian territory (regardless of what Russian's may believe) and continue the fight until it's back in their hands. If foreign nations continue supplying Ukraine with the finances, aid, equipment, training and intelligence (and whatever else may be required) to regain control of all Ukrainian territory, how long can/will Russia go on?
Good question. In principle Russia can go on for a very long time. In practice, I don't know if they will be willing to.

Perhaps far-fetched, but what's to say that Ukraine stops there and doesn't continue on with Crimea? It is, after all, internationally recognised as part of Ukraine still.
Let's not get ahead of ourselves. So far Ukraine has not launched any major offensives. Russia withdrew from Kiev because they got bogged down and weren't making progress. If Ukraine manages to launch successful offensive, it will be different. As of right now, I don't see that happening. With Russian air superiority, as well as a shortages of artillery and armor, the likeliest scenario, if Ukraine chooses to keep fighting, is that the front line will stabilize into some sort of positional warfare.

What's your thinking mate
Can Ukraine survive a ww2 summer
You know tanks ( who cares what vintage) running amok on the wheat plains
I'm not sure how much of a difference summer would make. Would it be easier to assault Kharkov, Zaporozhye, Dnepropetrovsk, or Nikolaev in the summer?

It’s not slow compared to the 2017 Battle of Marawi; the details of which I provided in earlier posts in this thread.
Yeah, that was kind of my point. It's slow compared to the pace Russia wanted to do this at, but about right for what it is, and honestly Russia did better there than they had any right to expect. They were up against thousands of Ukrainian fighters, including practically the entire 36th Marines, with western weapons, artillery, and armor, entrenched in a large urban area, and they attacked with a force that as far as I can tell wasn't anywhere near 5:1. Use of heavy fire power, air superiority, and the apparently fairly solid performance of both rebel units and Russian Marines, all make this (again) a success. It's just that.... if it took 6 weeks here, it could easily take twice that long in Kharkov, and thrice as long in Kiev. It's one of those successes that shows you how impossible the whole task really is.

And yet the first claim was that it's all about Neo-Nazis, so which is it? Before that, the troops were just there for exercises, remember?

Russia's changing justification is what should make it clear that they're just making excuses to expand, and didn't expect any real resistance. If that's not enough to set off your BS-radar, what about the fact that once they've taken this territory that they'll be surrounded by........more NATO members.
This war is a continuation of the conflict from '14-'15. You have to look at it in that light, otherwise it just looks strange and makes no sense.
 
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Big Slick

New Member
It’s not slow compared to the 2017 Battle of Marawi; the details of which I provided in earlier posts in this thread.


During a war, states will make an effort to discredit adversaries while trying to build up sympathy and support for their own positions. They are designed to elicit strong emotions or to confuse and distract, often by trying to shape behaviour by manipulating information and human psychology.

There are limits to tolerance of this back and forth, within the framework of our forum rules — congrats on crossing the limits (on the whitewashing of Russian war crimes).

Below are pictures of the exhumation of the mass grave in Bucha. Mass graves found in formerly Russian occupied areas, and credible witness accounts of execution of civilians by the Russians in occupied areas, means intentional harm to civilians — likely war crimes.View attachment 49158


That is an interesting way of looking at it.
Are the deceased in these mass graves the victims of executions? Are there any civilian combatants among the dead? Are they collateral damage from the fighting that were buried in a field expedient fashion? What would be the trusted source for information on these death’s? I’m not a Russian apologist, I just want to get as close to the truth as possible under these circumstances.
 

MaxSP89

New Member
And yet the first claim was that it's all about Neo-Nazis, so which is it? Before that, the troops were just there for exercises, remember?

Russia's changing justification is what should make it clear that they're just making excuses to expand, and didn't expect any real resistance. If that's not enough to set off your BS-radar, what about the fact that once they've taken this territory that they'll be surrounded by........more NATO members.
Which first claim? I'm confused. The demands from Russia as of today are exactly the same as 2 months ago:
  • Ukraine's neutrality.
  • Recognition of Crimea as part of the RF. Independence of DNR/LNR.
  • "De-nazification".
The latter is quite a strong term, rather broad and unclear. The reference although exaggerated, is indeed referring to Azov, Aidar, Right Sector, etc. (I believe the latter two merged, don't know exactly). These groups do have a rather questionable ideology and ultranationalist ideals, and they do have their own list of criminal deeds. Worst of all, they have a strong presence politically, which is the main concern. And as long as they do, and are prominent, both pro-Russian Ukrainians, Russians and the Kremlin itself are at threat. Personally, I believe Zelensky isn't keen on them either, as they are quite a pain in the ass to deal with, so getting rid of some of them in Mariupol could be a win-win for him (they have less power, and they died as heroes - perfect).

Anyhow, as to the "exercises". My thoughts are that they were warnings (ignored ones), and as time passed by, indeed preparations. If a country wants to solely invade, it doesn't put its troops on the border of the other country for months and months, visible to the entire world's satellites. That's absurd. Invasions are planned to be a complete surprise, have a shock effect, and are camouflaged as much as possible before the eventual day (see operation Barbarossa, where the Soviets were still sending supply trains to Germany unaware that part of their country was being occupied).

I don't know where you're getting this assumption of Russia wanting to occupy territories from. If the Kremlin wanted to, they could have easily taken much of eastern Ukraine back in 2014, but they were satisfied only with Crimea - hosting the only warm sea port Russia has for trade, and it's entire Black Sea fleet in Sevastopol, which was being leased by Ukraine ever since the dissolution. Assets unacceptable to lose for the Kremlin.

I do remember the Odessa and Kharkov movements for a people's republic of their own which were quite strong (but not strong or quick enough). Ukraine was in disarray back then, especially militarily, unlike Russia's which even was recently modernized. How come Russia did not seize Donetsk, Lugansk, Kharkov, Kherson, Odessa, etc.? Russia never had that interest, nor the means to do so. Just look at how much Russia's economy struggled (and still does) to integrate Crimea. Heck, just look at the gigantic logistic problems the Russian army is having now, relying mainly on its own railways for supplies - its military was never designed for offensive operations.

Russia's desires have always been to be able to trade and have good relations with Europe, and that has been more than proven by the amount of agreements signed between Russian both owned a non-state owned companies until probably 2013ish, which is when Euromaidan happened, coincidentally not too long after the completion of Nord Stream 1 (which guess who is the big western player that wasn't keen on).

I'm not saying that Russia makes no propagandistic efforts politically (just as any other "modern world" country really), and I'm not taking sides here, but I'm sorry, I have to say that the belief of Russia wanting to conquer Europe is just Kafkaesque and completely ridiculous to me, spreading nothing more than pure Russophobia.
 
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Rob c

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I really have to disagree. Nothing about this whole ordeal was unprovoked. NATO, and especially the US have been expanding their influence over Eastern Europe for years, ignoring and disregarding Russia's security concerns (and to one extent agreements). Months before it all went down, the Russian delegations were continuously demanding not to expand onto Ukraine, but it was all ignored. Which of course the US benefitted greatly from, especially on the economic side, as they managed to once again break the trade agreements Russia has been so desperately trying to make with Europe for the last two decades. Thus the provocation was indeed there, and an obvious one. I find it hard to believe the Kremlin decided to intervene randomly, "just because".
This ordeal as you put it was not provoked by NATO. NATO made no demands to the former countries that came from under the control of the USSR to join NATO. Those countries that did join, had to apply to join and meet certain criteria, It was their decision mainly brought about by fear of Russia.

Ukraine had asked about joining but did not at that time meet the criteria and was unlikely to in the near future, so any expansion into Ukraine was a long way off. The NATO response to Russia was simply that Ukraine was a sovereign country and had a right to make its own decisions and should not be bullied by Russia.

Russia (USSR) has a long history of using violence on neighboring countries that do not bow down to what it wants and it has shown a complete disregard for norms of global behavior and word order.

The provocation was all Russian who was trying to expand it's territories further west due to Putin's vision and started in 2014 with the annexation of Crimea and continued with fermenting further trouble in eastern Ukraine. Ukraine's wanting to join NATO was simply a reaction to this obvious Russian aggression and what country would not look to gather other allies around them when being bullied by a vastly larger next door neighbor. There is no excuse that Russia has put forward that makes this war acceptable.

Finally NATO is a DEFENSIVE organization and has up to now kept troop numbers near the Russian border at very low levels so as to not provoke Russia.
nd lastly, yes, Ukraine is a sovereign country and can choose to do whatever the majority of their people wish for. But what happens when some of these choices directly threaten the sovereignty of another country? That's quite a grey area, wouldn't you agree? If not, we'd still have Soviet ballistic missiles on Cuba. And judging by the list of military operations the US (and to an extent NATO) has launched in the last 30 years, I can't really call it a peaceful, purely defensive military alliance.
What direct threat was Ukraine to the sovereignty of Russia? For NATO to carry out offensive operations there has to be agreement of all the 33 members and Ukraine was not yet a member and was unlikely to be (Reported to be at least 10 years to meet the criteria) in the near future.

The reason that Ukraine wanted to join was simply the justified fear of Russia which has unfortunately now been shown to a completely accurate justification..
 
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