Only because the Armenians lacked the means to fully counter them. In any future war; against an opponent which deploys airpower and has a layered and networked AD system; one would not be able to deploy UASs effectively.
Israeli Army News & Discussion
- Thread starter Big_Zucchini
- Start date
Big_Zucchini
Well-Known Member
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #62
Armored is king in shoot and scoot. Reason is if you need to do shoot and scoot, you know an enemy has capable arty. And in that case, that extra armor will go a long way in keeping your units in the battle, or recoverable.
Take 2 armies not so well armed and give one of them an ultra advanced weapon that has technology decades younger than the average hardware, it'll shine in battle. But that does not make that new system ultra capable. It just means there is a lack of balance in tech within that army, and between the two opponents.
Tracked and armored is preferred, but un-economical. Strategic mobility again has high importance, so it goes for wheeled and armored.
It was said the acquisitions will take until roughly 2030, before the program had a 2 year delay, and also that it's done in 2 tranches. It is possible the 2nd tranche will be tracked, or it may not.
With the IDF's now increased focus on strategic mobility and war economy, it may opt for the next gen 30-40 ton platform in development as its tracked platform for the 2nd tranche.
Big_Zucchini
Well-Known Member
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #63
New Israeli company, Cognata, has created and now markets a virtual environment that simulates all types and forms of harsh environments an autonomous platform will have to drive through.
www.timesofisrael.com
A little explainer:
Autonomous platforms require some form of AI to gain today's desired levels of autonomy.
One of the dominant forms of AI, and the one relevant in this subject, is Machine Learning (ML).
The logical process for ML is very simple - you train the machine to respond to certain input by telling it when it classified something correctly or incorrectly, and the more you do it the more reliable the machine becomes.
Training a machine, however, to be reliable enough in even the most basic scenarios, may take not tens or hundreds of trials, but tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, millions sometimes. Mathematically, it strives to infinity.
For an autonomous vehicle that has a finite capacity of fuel, a finite budget for fuel, and has its own downtimes, plus the actual time for going through a test track, making millions of iterations in a large array of tracks is simply impossible.
Companies that make UGVs do have the tools to test them in a virtual environment of some sort. But a comprehensive tool now being launched into the market is an important milestone for the western drive (a pun) for UGVs.
Defense Ministry taps Israeli firm for autonomous driving simulation with IDF
Cognata to work with military to test and train autonomous vehicles in all-terrain conditions under simulated reality to meet army's tech needs
www.timesofisrael.com
A little explainer:
Autonomous platforms require some form of AI to gain today's desired levels of autonomy.
One of the dominant forms of AI, and the one relevant in this subject, is Machine Learning (ML).
The logical process for ML is very simple - you train the machine to respond to certain input by telling it when it classified something correctly or incorrectly, and the more you do it the more reliable the machine becomes.
Training a machine, however, to be reliable enough in even the most basic scenarios, may take not tens or hundreds of trials, but tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, millions sometimes. Mathematically, it strives to infinity.
For an autonomous vehicle that has a finite capacity of fuel, a finite budget for fuel, and has its own downtimes, plus the actual time for going through a test track, making millions of iterations in a large array of tracks is simply impossible.
Companies that make UGVs do have the tools to test them in a virtual environment of some sort. But a comprehensive tool now being launched into the market is an important milestone for the western drive (a pun) for UGVs.
Big_Zucchini
Well-Known Member
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #64
First serial production Eitan fired up:
fb.watch
ציון דרך היסטורי במפעל המרכבה: ראש מינלת הרק"ם הניע את הנגמ״ש הגלגלי הראשון מייצור סדרתי | ציון דרך היסטורי במפעל המרכבה: ראש מינהלת הרק״ם במשרד הביטחון, תא״ל גיא פאגלין, הניע הבוקר לראשונה את הנגמ״ש הגלגלי הראשון מייצור סדרתי. האיתן, שצפוי... | By משרד הביטחון - Facebook
ציון דרך היסטורי במפעל המרכבה: ראש מינהלת הרק״ם במשרד הביטחון, תא״ל גיא פאגלין, הניע הבוקר לראשונה את הנגמ״ש הגלגלי הראשון מייצור סדרתי. האיתן, שצפוי...
fb.watch
Big_Zucchini
Well-Known Member
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #66
Yes, it has, albeit not on operational products yet.
Spike is integrated on specialized vehicles and helicopters of the IDF.
Also with over 30 users, it has certainly been integrated into many turrets of a good chunk of manufacturers.
Australia seems to want to downsize certain programs, including Phase 2's numbers. It doesn't seem like integration issues are real issues here. Otherwise what have they been doing this whole time?
Last edited:
Well we will see but the information came from Chief of the Australian Army ….. Army says Boxer 8x8 will not be able to fire guided missiles - APDR
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
The article also states no active protection system for the Boxers, a questionable omission.
My no apologies here. I took the info from an ABC report (should of known better) and validation from APDR. It turns out that the tranche 1 were never intended to have spike or APS. They will be built in Germany and delivered as a first set for training and initial capability while waiting for the AU production like to kick of in 2024. The AU vehicles will be have spike capability and APS capability but not all may be fitted.
Big_Zucchini
Well-Known Member
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #70
The fact that most CRVs were not even intended to have Spikes, but still retained 30mm cannons which implies readiness for close combat, is in itself worrying.
Yes, these ATGMs are networked, and with a proper architecture on the Boxers they can be fired by anyone, so it's more about how many Spikes a local force is carrying at a time. But it is hardly going to be a high number. When looking at Spikes not merely as AT weapons but general purpose PGMs, it suddenly seems too little. I believe the figure was for around ~80 CRVs in total carrying pairs of Spikes.
Big_Zucchini
Well-Known Member
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #71
Unknown AFV spotted on a road in Israel. It uses the same turret as the Eitan and Namer. Still did not identify the vehicle as a product of any local company. Looking into it.
From the very little exposed, it seems similar to the IAI Robattle. Distance between wheels, and the hook setup.
From the very little exposed, it seems similar to the IAI Robattle. Distance between wheels, and the hook setup.
Big_Zucchini
Well-Known Member
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #72
@OPSSG can you change the name of this thread to something more general than just "AFVs"? I should've thought about it when I created this thread.
Perhaps "Israeli army news/discussion".
The UGV seen in the post above is said to be the BL-2 by defense company BLR. Oddly, BLR only provides mechanical solutions to bigger companies.
The IDF is said to use this UGV to evaluate the concept of armed UGVs in a maneuvering force, not any specific product.
In more recent news, Rafael unveiled the AeroSpike. It appears to be a modified Spike missile (reportedly, specifically based on LR2) designed to be fired from armed UAVs. Much like with the Sea Breaker, it is already operational with numerous customers at the time of its unveiling.
It has a long standoff range of 30km, an anti-tank or anti-personnel warhead, and the same advanced yet proven guidance as other Spike missiles.
No comment on whether the IDF uses it. It was however mentioned they developed it from their own pocket, i.e no IDF development contract, so it's possible this is for export.
www.israeldefense.co.il
Perhaps "Israeli army news/discussion".
The UGV seen in the post above is said to be the BL-2 by defense company BLR. Oddly, BLR only provides mechanical solutions to bigger companies.
The IDF is said to use this UGV to evaluate the concept of armed UGVs in a maneuvering force, not any specific product.
In more recent news, Rafael unveiled the AeroSpike. It appears to be a modified Spike missile (reportedly, specifically based on LR2) designed to be fired from armed UAVs. Much like with the Sea Breaker, it is already operational with numerous customers at the time of its unveiling.
It has a long standoff range of 30km, an anti-tank or anti-personnel warhead, and the same advanced yet proven guidance as other Spike missiles.
No comment on whether the IDF uses it. It was however mentioned they developed it from their own pocket, i.e no IDF development contract, so it's possible this is for export.
SOFIC 2022: RAFAEL Unveils the AEROSPIKE Missile
As part of the 2022 Special Operations Forces Industry Conference (SOFIC), Rafael Advanced Defense Systems unveils AEROSPIKE, a new advanced air-to-surface Stand-Off Precision Guided Missile (SOPGM) for fixed-wing airborne platforms. AEROSPIKE is a state-of-the-art, next generation EO/IR SOPGM...
www.israeldefense.co.il
Zucchini,
Your expertise is needed. The 2nd and third individuals from the left are carrying different bergens. To the best of your knowledge are both issue items or privately purchased? What also stands out is both are of a different colour to the issue uniforms.
I'm also curious about the boots. Has this particular design been in service for long?
Thank you.
Your expertise is needed. The 2nd and third individuals from the left are carrying different bergens. To the best of your knowledge are both issue items or privately purchased? What also stands out is both are of a different colour to the issue uniforms.
I'm also curious about the boots. Has this particular design been in service for long?
Thank you.
Last edited:
Big_Zucchini
Well-Known Member
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #75
I wasn't an infantryman, so I don't know. I do know that since a few years ago there is a ban on personally-bought or donated equipment, so chances are these are standard issue.
- What isn't banned, or at least there is a soft ban that is rarely enforced, is taking standard issue equipment from ex-servicemen friends in other units.
- For example paratroopers giving their friends their red boots, also coats are gifted regularly, I assume backpacks, uniform etc are no exception.
Last edited by a moderator:
Big_Zucchini
Well-Known Member
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #76
A user on a Russian-speaking Israeli forum, who has inside information, said the first batch of 30 Eitans are already produced and the first infantry battalion will have them operational by the end of this year or early next year, as they have a half a year basic training period.
For now, they are without turrets. Reasons unknown.
For now, they are without turrets. Reasons unknown.
Big_Zucchini
Well-Known Member
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #77
Rafael unveiled the 6th generation of the Spike NLOS today, which corresponds technologically with the Spike LR2 / ER2.
Among its new capabilities are:
1. Increased range - from 25/32km to 32/50km from land/helicopters. This further increases the standoff range especially for aerial platforms, and brings it closer to conventional artillery assets.
2. Control handover - 3rd party control is not really unique and exists across other Spike missiles, but is important nonetheless.
3. Salvo fire - much like the brimstone which we can see launched in trios, the Spike can now be fired in a tight volley of up to 4 missiles. This addition means that with improvement to the communications suite, the volley size can be increased further.
4. Target image transfer - instead of lasing a target, a soldier/platform near the target can take an image, transfer it to the missile, and that would allow its terminal guidance.
Among its new capabilities are:
1. Increased range - from 25/32km to 32/50km from land/helicopters. This further increases the standoff range especially for aerial platforms, and brings it closer to conventional artillery assets.
2. Control handover - 3rd party control is not really unique and exists across other Spike missiles, but is important nonetheless.
3. Salvo fire - much like the brimstone which we can see launched in trios, the Spike can now be fired in a tight volley of up to 4 missiles. This addition means that with improvement to the communications suite, the volley size can be increased further.
4. Target image transfer - instead of lasing a target, a soldier/platform near the target can take an image, transfer it to the missile, and that would allow its terminal guidance.
Last edited:
Terran
Well-Known Member
I find it interesting that the video shows a JLTV as the prime mover, I mean Apache is used by the IDF, the drone a Harpy 2 ( I believe) is to. Spike hasn’t had a huge inroad into US forces and the IDF hasn’t as far as I know shown an interest in JLTV as the Sand cat fulfills that function.
Big_Zucchini
Well-Known Member
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #79
With 45 platforms across 39 countries, it makes little sense trying to market it for the IDF alone. Besides, the IDF already bought these missiles.
The JLTV is currently at the center of Rafael marketing, probably to convince its users to buy Spikes with them.
The Apache may be used by IDF, but also by many other potential customers.
The drone is not a Harpy, but an Orbiter 4 made by Aeronautics, a Rafael subsidiary. Yet another marketing choice.
Terran
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the correction. Though configuration is similar in my defense.
Agreed. Particularly since the L-ATV is one of the new hotness in export.