NZDF General discussion thread

[ngatimozart]

No, though the latitude might impact performance as well, particularly during solar events. Rather it is mostly NZ's seismic activity which I could as being problematic, coupled with some of the magnetic anomalies which are to be found in and around NZ.

Of course these concerns might also be unfounded, since the JORN system's tolerances might be able to either account or compensate for issues caused. It is the sort of level of detail that I would be shocked if it came into the public domain.

Yes the seismicity has crossed my mind as well. I remember it was mentioned a couple or so years ago by one of the Aussie posters WRT to spatial accuracy requirements between transmitting and receiving stations. If such is true then, for example a transmitting station in the South Island east of the Pacific - Australian plate boundary and the receiving station anywhere in the North Island will have spatial anomalies, in three dimensions, at all times because of the plate movements. For example, Christchurch moves towards the West Coast at 4cm per year as the Pacific plate is subducted under the Australian plate, but at the plate boundary along the Southern Alps Alpine Fault, the fault is actually a horizontal strike slip fault, where the plates are sliding horizontally against each other. Go north and south its subduction again.

WRT to the magnetic anomalies, are you referring to the Stokes Magnetic Anomaly System and Campbell Magnetic Anomaly System, and would they impact upon the JORN signals at all? They are mineral based magnetic systems rather than the energetic planetary one that surrounds and protects the Earth. It's an interesting question and geophysics isn't my field.

 

[Todjaeger]

Yes the seismicity has crossed my mind as well. I remember it was mentioned a couple or so years ago by one of the Aussie posters WRT to spatial accuracy requirements between transmitting and receiving stations. If such is true then, for example a transmitting station in the South Island east of the Pacific - Australian plate boundary and the receiving station anywhere in the North Island will have spatial anomalies, in three dimensions, at all times because of the plate movements. For example, Christchurch moves towards the West Coast at 4cm per year as the Pacific plate is subducted under the Australian plate, but at the plate boundary along the Southern Alps Alpine Fault, the fault is actually a horizontal strike slip fault, where the plates are sliding horizontally against each other. Go north and south its subduction again.

WRT to the magnetic anomalies, are you referring to the Stokes Magnetic Anomaly System and Campbell Magnetic Anomaly System, and would they impact upon the JORN signals at all? They are mineral based magnetic systems rather than the energetic planetary one that surrounds and protects the Earth. It's an interesting question and geophysics isn't my field.

For the first part, it depends on how JORN antennas are configured, particularly those which feed receivers. Different antenna configurations are used depending on both frequency/wavelength, as well as what direction the RF energy is to travel. JORN being an HF (5 MHz to 30 MHz or 10m - 60 m) band OTHR is going to use skywave propagation. In my experience doing HF comms, a horizontal antenna configuration with an antenna length which is proportional to the wavelength(s) being used has worked. Judging by the images I have seen of elements of JORN, it appears that an antenna array is used instead of a single horizontal antenna. I would expect that the individual antenna elements are integrated to cover the wavelength ranges the transmitters would operate at, and if I am right, then the specific distances between the individual elements, as well as those distances not changing, would be very important. Therefore anything which could cause the positions of those elements to move or shift would be quite problematic.

As for the magnetic anomalies, I honestly do not know. I do know that variations in magnetic field strength can impact RF propagation, with an external magnetic field able to impact the electric and magnetic fields involved in RF transmission and reception.

 

[ngatimozart]

For the first part, it depends on how JORN antennas are configured, particularly those which feed receivers. Different antenna configurations are used depending on both frequency/wavelength, as well as what direction the RF energy is to travel. JORN being an HF (5 MHz to 30 MHz or 10m - 60 m) band OTHR is going to use skywave propagation. In my experience doing HF comms, a horizontal antenna configuration with an antenna length which is proportional to the wavelength(s) being used has worked. Judging by the images I have seen of elements of JORN, it appears that an antenna array is used instead of a single horizontal antenna. I would expect that the individual antenna elements are integrated to cover the wavelength ranges the transmitters would operate at, and if I am right, then the specific distances between the individual elements, as well as those distances not changing, would be very important. Therefore anything which could cause the positions of those elements to move or shift would be quite problematic.

As for the magnetic anomalies, I honestly do not know. I do know that variations in magnetic field strength can impact RF propagation, with an external magnetic field able to impact the electric and magnetic fields involved in RF transmission and reception.

There's a lot of basaltic lava deposits around certain parts of the South Island and the continental shelf is quite narrow in places on the Pacific plate side, with large areas of the deep basaltic sea floor. I know that the Port Hills in Christchurch have a large basaltic lava composition with a reasonably high iron content along with some magnetite, feldspars, and other minerals. Of the five volcanoes on the Banks Peninsula one was a volcano with a andesitic eruptive history. They tend to be a bit excitable. This volcano was located near Lyttelton. Of course the chemical make up of the lava depends upon the chemical mix of the magma in the magma chamber underneath and I would suspect that the magma would be of similar composition to that found under the two main magnetic anomalies south of NZ. However that depends upon the location of the plume from deep within the mantle as the magma slowly transfers heat from the core to the asthenosphere.

How about the receiver on the Chatham Islands and the transmitter on either Fiji or Tonga. Fiji is 2,900 km and Tonga 2,500 km distant from the Chatham Islands. Fiji is still on the Pacific plate but Tonga is close to the boundary. Not sure about the seismic or volcanic history of Fiji though. It does have enough high ground to allow for tsunami, storm surges and climate change.

There may have to be another way, such as radar satellites. The resolution of such satellites is quite small now and as is the power consumption. Something like that maybe able to be fitted into CubeSats, built and launched from NZ. I was introduced to civilian satellite based radar remote sensing 12 years ago and it had a lot of capability then.

 

[At lakes]

Stuff

www.stuff.co.nz

Its a pity that the Min Def cant read and understand whats being written about the poor state of the NZ Defence Forces, in this article the author stated the RNZN is understaffed and under funded. The Minister states he believes the current Navy is adequate for the task at hand. All I can say is he is a certified Dill

 

[Wombat000]

”The Minister states he believes the current Navy is adequate for the task at hand.”

it is adequate for its practical intended purpose, those being:
diplomatic flag waving & local constabulary taskings.

that’s what they’re equiped to do because, why not? That’s what they’ve atrophied into.
what’s the incentive or motivation to do anything different?

grandiose strategic ambition is absent, or in tokenistic hand-waving theory only.
again, what possible incentive would prompt them to do any different?

 

[Gracie1234]

It is a real shame that our leaders are not prepared to have an honest conversation with the public and state that our capabilities are extremely limited compared to what they use to be comparatively and that significant investment is needed so for them to meet the demands of this century. This constant statement from our Minister that all is fine is just lying and I am sure he knows it.
At least now we are seeing some heat in the media and questions beginning to be asked.

 

[Stuart M]

It is a real shame that our leaders are not prepared to have an honest conversation with the public and state that our capabilities are extremely limited compared to what they use to be comparatively and that significant investment is needed so for them to meet the demands of this century. This constant statement from our Minister that all is fine is just lying and I am sure he knows it.
At least now we are seeing some heat in the media and questions beginning to be asked.

NZ politicians won't have any kind of conversation with the public:
1) NZ is a represtative Westminster democracy and that's not what the public exist for in that model of system.
2) NZ politicians as a general rule either don't like or don't care about the armed forces, so why bother having a conversation about it when they control the narrative?

The question now on the table is what happens when NZ politicians can no longer control the narrative, how will the politicians respond when events move demonstrably beyond their control? China has now publicly placed NZ in a position where it must choose either China or the West, pretending that it is perpetually 2000ad begins to look foolish.

Things will visibly change when a Chinese fishing fleet transiting from the Solomons begins to loot within NZs EEZ and a (inevitability underwealming) response is meet with difficulties with exports to China, further protests by NZ are met by an armed Chinese escort, again based out of the Solomons.

 

[Boardgamer88]

Things will visibly change when a Chinese fishing fleet transiting from the Solomons begins to loot within NZs EEZ and a (inevitability underwealming) response is meet with difficulties with exports to China, further protests by NZ are met by an armed Chinese escort, again based out of the Solomons.

How far off in the future before we see Chinese fishing fleet raiding NZ's waters?

On a side note, could someone explain the backstory for Labour/National disdain for the military please? I'm new here and missing the context here.

 

[At lakes]

How far off in the future before we see Chinese fishing fleet raiding NZ's waters?

On a side note, could someone explain the backstory for Labour/National disdain for the military please? I'm new here and missing the context here.

simple it costs money and they dont want to spend it and they think its theirs.

 

[Stuart M]

How far off in the future before we see Chinese fishing fleet raiding NZ's waters?

On a side note, could someone explain the backstory for Labour/National disdain for the military please? I'm new here and missing the context here.

Afraid I cannot say how long it will take for them to get down that way, a commercial decision I should think, dependent on a umber of factors not least being which relevant sides the CCP thinks needs 'encouragement' to take the proper path for win win outcomes.

My opinion from memory:NZ parties defence views in the post 84 period stem from an unwillingness on Nationals part to form and express a coherent policy on defence especially when the nation was in economic doldrums after 1989 (that doing so might also offend nations like China, who we needed, didn't help), making them an easy mark for Labour. To be blunt it was just easier to not advocate for defence when they could make their economic case very well when Labour couldn't.

Labour of course is an essentially pacifistic left wing party that lurched to the economic right in the 80's, loathed it, and had a desire to lurch left again, which made them vulnerable to National. Hence it became obvious that in return for not disturbing the right of centre economic setting of the Nats, the Nats wouldn't have the armed forces as much more than a heavily armed constabulary force, the preferred policy of Labour.

Unfortunately this only works in the "benign strategic environment" created by the Pax Americana post 1989; take that away and it becomes naive and dangerous.

That peace is beginning to crumble.

 

[Shanesworld]

Afraid I cannot say how long it will take for them to get down that way, a commercial decision I should think, dependent on a umber of factors not least being which relevant sides the CCP thinks needs 'encouragement' to take the proper path for win win outcomes.

My opinion from memory:NZ parties defence views in the post 84 period stem from an unwillingness on Nationals part to form and express a coherent policy on defence especially when the nation was in economic doldrums after 1989 (that doing so might also offend nations like China, who we needed, didn't help), making them an easy mark for Labour. To be blunt it was just easier to not advocate for defence when they could make their economic case very well when Labour couldn't.

Labour of course is an essentially pacifistic left wing party that lurched to the economic right in the 80's, loathed it, and had a desire to lurch left again, which made them vulnerable to National. Hence it became obvious that in return for not disturbing the right of centre economic setting of the Nats, the Nats wouldn't have the armed forces as much more than a heavily armed constabulary force, the preferred policy of Labour.

Unfortunately this only works in the "benign strategic environment" created by the Pax Americana post 1989; take that away and it becomes naive and dangerous.

That peace is beginning to crumble.

China is in danger of food shortages. They stockpiled heaps of wheat, tofu and soy but alot of that came from the US or ukraine. Last year or the year before they slaughtered more pigs in one year than were farmed in the rest of the world due to swine version of ebola and there have been persistent duck shortages since avian flu.

I reckon they could get pretty desparate and long ranged fishing jaunts could be pretty viable.

 

[Gibbo]

Stuff

www.stuff.co.nz

Its a pity that the Min Def cant read and understand whats being written about the poor state of the NZ Defence Forces, in this article the author stated the RNZN is understaffed and under funded. The Minister states he believes the current Navy is adequate for the task at hand. All I can say is he is a certified Dill

Good article but unfortunate it wasn't given the space to discuss the issue in a little more depth. I'd like to see an open discussion in public about the size of our EEZ & SAR responsibilities, then add in our obligations to assist SouPac nations...then list exactly what the RNZN & RNZAF are provided to do this. It would quickly be clear to even to most gormless member of the great unwashed that there's patently no way the NZDF, and therefore NZ, can meet even peacetime obligations. Thankfully the Govt stopped trotting out the old cliche that 'we pull our weight'!

Anyway, it looks like finally the discussion is starting.... but it won't be led by Govt!

 

[Wombat000]

EEZ policing and SAR are constabulary/CG functions.
the NZDF is not only funded for this, but configured for this in mind.

I don’t know what the problem is?
or why they (NZG) should bother doing anything different?

 

[Stuart M]

EEZ policing and SAR are constabulary/CG functions.
the NZDF is not only funded for this, but configured for this in mind.

I don’t know what the problem is?
or why they (NZG) should bother doing anything different?

To put an historical context on that. 1905, the British army starts a series of staff conversations with the French army: the British army is funded for colonial policing and configured with this in mind, I don't know what the problem is or why they (HMG) should bother doing anything different?

So what was changing in 1905 that was different to say 1898, the year of Omdurman ? What led to the UK abandoning, not just in 1905, but 1902 (Anglo-Japan naval treaty) it's policy of Splendid Isolation?

 

[Gooey]

Boardgamer88
1. Next year if this Solomons Agreement, which is now ‘initialed’ (good one NZ media for coverage of that…ye, right), is formally signed shortly. Expecting the first PLAN CV in 2 years.
2. In addition to the economic points already raised, I’d also add:
a. The popular Anti-Nuc legislation, which has little practical outcomes other than as a meaningless show pony for NZG, leading to the stupidity of NZ allowing itself to get kicked out of ANZUS. This mouse that roared theme in the media was popular. The higher levels of NZDF were directly opposed to this throughout the upheaval and when the ‘geriatric general’s’ publicly said so, they were ridiculed by Gov with zero effort to provide a coherent response;
b. Procurement was allowed to become politically motivated, especially the F-16, 3rd & 4th ANZACs, LAVs, and ASW. This was despite the Quiggly (Sp?) report compromise, our history (1915 & 1941 Crete and Solomons), and operations such as Vietnam, Bosnia, Timor, TWATs series. So again professional NZDF/NZ MoD advice was royally ignored and replaced with varsity level politics whilst also further reducing the stature of our strategic military briefs to NZG;
c. Without in anyway being anti-army (I used to be RNZIR), the army split itself and NZDF, back briefing the new PM Clark government that UN policing type ops were our way forward (ie, talking up armour and dumping on RNZN and especially RNZAF ACF). When Clack assumed PM, her response to the above friction from the professionals was to chop 2 whole layers of Generals etc to be replaced by junior’s who got the message about their place on the new totem pole. Add in a spot of ASW BS in the media b/ PM Clark and leaks to the media and I assess that NZG just did not trust the military anymore.

So:
i. why listen to these old men/fund NZDF when it is bequeathed that we are in a benign strategic environment and loved by all?
ii. NZDF grownups have learned to be quiet for the sake of their careers and as a direct result have become accustomed to being wiped like a dog and to say ‘thank you very much for that’
iii. I suspect that NZDF/NZ MoD has now little knowledge, or willingness, to provide overarching professional modern warfare advice to NZG: This is the truely scary bit IMHO which is a direct result of the de-fanging of our warfighters.

PS. People say Buchanan is worth listening to as an expert: I have my suspicions that he just swings with the wind and earns his crust by drivelling a few talking points to the media. And frecking Cyber! Again, ye…right. Just media, polli, ‘experts’ white noise to say stuff and do nothing.

note. Edited for grammar

 

[Gooey]

And another thing … ref a nice ABC Between the Lines piece about Solomons with our own Prof Anne-Marrie Brady

Global consensus on Ukraine? China’s foothold in the Solomons. Britain vs France and the colonisation of Australia

Podcast Episode · Between the Lines · 04/02/2022 · 54m

podcasts.apple.com

Admittedly, BtL is a specialty program but it puts to shame NZ media depth of knowledge and coverage.

Also, highlights the national asset that is the Prof!

 

[Shanesworld]

Boardgamer88
1. Next year if this Solomons Agreement, which is now ‘initialed’ (good one NZ media for coverage of that…ye, right), is formally signed shortly. Expecting the first PLAN CV in 2 years.
2. In addition to the economic points already raised, I’d also add:
a. The popular Anti-Nuc legislation, which has little practical outcomes other than as a meaningless show pony for NZG, leading to the stupidity of NZ allowing itself to get kicked out of ANZUS. This mouse that roared theme in the media was popular. The higher levels of NZDF were directly opposed to this throughout the upheaval and when the ‘geriatric general’s’ publicly said so, they were ridiculed by Gov with zero effort to provide a coherent response;
b. Procurement was allowed to become politically motivated, especially the F-16, 3rd & 4th ANZACs, LAVs, and ASW. This was despite the Quiggly (Sp?) report compromise, our history (1915 & 1941 Crete and Solomons), and operations such as Vietnam, Bosnia, Timor, TWATs series. So again professional NZDF/NZ MoD advice was royally ignored and replaced with varsity level politics whilst also further reducing the stature of our strategic military briefs to NZG;
c. Without in anyway being anti-army (I used to be RNZIR), the army split itself and NZDF, back briefing the new PM Clark government that UN policing type ops were our way forward (ie, talking up armour and dumping on RNZN and especially RNZAF ACF). When Clack assumed PM, her response to the above friction from the professionals was to chop 2 whole layers of Generals etc to be replaced by junior’s who got the message about their place on the new totem pole. Add in a spot of ASW BS in the media b/ PM Clark and leaks to the media and I assess that NZG just did not trust the military anymore.

So:
i. why listen to these old men/fund NZDF when it is bequeathed that we are in a benign strategic environment and loved by all?
ii. NZDF grownups have learned to be quiet for the sake of their careers and as a direct result have become accustomed to being wiped like a dog and to say ‘thank you very much for that’
iii. I suspect that NZDF/NZ MoD has now little knowledge, or willingness, to provide overarching professional modern warfare advice to NZG: This is the truely scary bit IMHO which is a direct result of the de-fanging of our warfighters.

PS. People say Buchanan is worth listening to as an expert: I have my suspicions that he just swings with the wind and earns his crust by drivelling a few talking points to the media. And frecking Cyber! Again, ye…right. Just media, polli, ‘experts’ white noise to say stuff and do nothing.

note. Edited for grammar

Just to add to that. Even the bribe of the peacekeeping mechanised army built around 105 lavs was a lie. The requirement was for a 156 vehicles of all types. So even then the lie couldn't be done properly to fulfill this new peacekeeping only concept.

 

[Gooey]

Thanks Shane. Didn’t really know that. Air Force urban myth at the time was that Army asked for 105 thinking they’d only get 50!
q. If we can not man/person 105, how could we manage 156?

 

[Shanesworld]

Yeah i heard that from a colleague who did a strfe for a former qamr officer who survived the culling. The infantry officers who took over after labours reschuffle agreed to 105.

 

[Gooey]

Apologies for my ignorance!