Australian Army Discussions and Updates

[Bob53]

Whi

I don't know if any of you have already seen and dismissed this, but according to AFR the Lynx has won the Land400 ph3 competition. Wouldn't surprise me if they did. Appeasing Europe post submarine cancellation?

Decision on $27b armoured vehicle contract in government’s sights

A German company is in the box seat to win a lucrative contract as Australia seeks a new European conduit after killing off the French submarine contract.

www.afr.com

le I can see the merits of both entries the whole “euro not really off the shelf“ worries me vs the volume that stu Korea will probably purchase. On the other hand current events may trigger more clients for Lynx. On the other hand seeing what ATMs are doing to armour might make folks think twice about going to land war at all.

 

[oldsig127]

I don't know if any of you have already seen and dismissed this, but according to AFR the Lynx has won the Land400 ph3 competition. Wouldn't surprise me if they did. Appeasing Europe post submarine cancellation?

Decision on $27b armoured vehicle contract in government’s sights

A German company is in the box seat to win a lucrative contract as Australia seeks a new European conduit after killing off the French submarine contract.

www.afr.com

Better vehicle, and NOT pork barrelling Victoria?

Honestly do we really need to assume a good conspiracy in every decision?

oldsig

 

[STURM]

On the other hand seeing what ATMs are doing to armour might make folks think twice about going to land war at all.

How so? If you're referring to the Ukraine; it's not the first conflict in which we've seen MBTs take losses. In various conflicts; whether in Iraq, Syria or Georgia; we've seen MBTs being lost and being vulnerable in certain operational conditions.

 

[Redlands18]

How so? If you're referring to the Ukraine; it's not the first conflict in which we've seen MBTs take losses. In various conflicts; whether in Iraq, Syria or Georgia; we've seen MBTs being lost and being vulnerable in certain operational conditions.

And how many Abrams, Boxers, Lynx and Redbacks are the Russian Forces operating? How does there Armour match up to that on our AFVs? Is the Russian Armour working closely enough with the Infantry? Tanks greatest enemy has always been fire teams operating with Anti Armour Weapons at close range, it is the job of the Infantry to find and neutralize such teams.

 

[STURM]

And how many Abrams, Boxers, Lynx and Redbacks are the Russian Forces operating?

How is this relevant to the topic at hand?

Any MBT or armour; whether a 35 year old BMP-1 or a Boxer are vulnerable if misused or not employed with the proper support...

Is the Russian Armour working closely enough with the Infantry?

I have no idea and I will not assume. Are you suggesting that Russian MBT losses have mainly occurred because of a lack of effective infantry support?

Tanks greatest enemy has always been fire teams operating with Anti Armour Weapons at close range, it is the job of the Infantry to find and neutralize such teams.

There will be instances where infantry are unable to effectively provide support to armour; whether due to terrain or other factors....

fire teams operating with Anti Armour Weapons at close range, it is the job of the Infantry to find and neutralize such teams.

That will be mainly in restricted terrain such as urban or woodland areas. In non restricted, more open terrain where engagements ranges are much longer, supporting infantry by themselves may not be very effective.

 

[Stampede]

I don't know if any of you have already seen and dismissed this, but according to AFR the Lynx has won the Land400 ph3 competition. Wouldn't surprise me if they did. Appeasing Europe post submarine cancellation?

Decision on $27b armoured vehicle contract in government’s sights

A German company is in the box seat to win a lucrative contract as Australia seeks a new European conduit after killing off the French submarine contract.

www.afr.com

Winner of Land 400 Phase 3............ the Australian Army!
Just wondering did Lynx offer the option for 8 dismounts or just the original design for 6 plus three crew.

Cheers S

 

[ADMk2]

How so? If you're referring to the Ukraine; it's not the first conflict in which we've seen MBTs take losses. In various conflicts; whether in Iraq, Syria or Georgia; we've seen MBTs being lost and being vulnerable in certain operational conditions.

Germany alone lost more than 6000 tanks in WW2. Israel lost over 1000 in 1973.

Russia loses 150 odd now and suddenly the end is night for heavy armoured forces…

Yeah, I too am dubious on the concept that armour has had it’s day…

 

[Redlands18]

How is this relevant to the topic at hand?

Any MBT or armour; whether a 35 year old BMP-1 or a Boxer are vulnerable if misused or not employed with the proper support...



I have no idea and I will not assume. Are you suggesting that Russian MBT losses have mainly occurred because of a lack of effective infantry support?



There will be instances where infantry are unable to effectively provide support to armour; whether due to terrain or other factors....



That will be mainly in restricted terrain such as urban or woodland areas. In non restricted, more open terrain where engagements ranges are much longer, supporting infantry by themselves may not be very effective.

Can I remind you this is the Australian Army Thread, thus any discussion must be concerning the effectiveness of Australian Armour, thus the comment by a previous poster about the effectiveness of Armour on the Battlefield must be in relation to Australian AFVs, so how is it not relevant? All I did was raise the question of whether the Russian Armour is suffering losses due to lack of Infantry support, at no place did I say it categorically was.
My apologies but my comments where actually supposed to be in support of yours and unfortunately its come out badly. I do agree with what you have said.

 

[STURM]

so how is it not relevant? .

The relevance part was in reference to this statement - 'And how many Abrams, Boxers, Lynx and Redbacks are the Russian Forces operating?'

To me it matters not what's being operated but rather how the armour is deployed and the operational circumstances, hence my comment.

 

[MARKMILES77]

How so? If you're referring to the Ukraine; it's not the first conflict in which we've seen MBTs take losses. In various conflicts; whether in Iraq, Syria or Georgia; we've seen MBTs being lost and being vulnerable in certain operational conditions.

Seeing the vulnerability of armoured vehicles in Ukraine has to at least make one pause and ask the question is the massive amount of money proposed to be spent on armoured vehicles good value for money.
The budget for a new IFV alone is simply staggering.

ADM


Hanwha Defense Australia (HDA) and Rheinmetall Defence Australia (RDA) have submitted their final offerings for the Australian Army's next Infantry Fighting Vehicle (IFV) under Land 400 Phase 3, a program worth $18-27 billion.

Final bids in for Land 400 Phase 3 - Australian Defence Magazine

Hanwha and Rheinmetall have submitted their final offerings for the Australian Army's next Infantry Fighting Vehicle under Land 400 Phase 3, a program worth $18-27 billion.

www.australiandefence.com.au

That sort of money would buy thousands of ATGMs, Armed UAVs, Loitering Munitions etc and still leave plenty left over!

 

[Julian 82]

Seeing the vulnerability of armoured vehicles in Ukraine has to at least make one pause and ask the question is the massive amount of money proposed to be spent on armoured vehicles good value for money.
The budget for a new IFV alone is simply staggering.

Final bids in for Land 400 Phase 3 - Australian Defence Magazine

Hanwha and Rheinmetall have submitted their final offerings for the Australian Army's next Infantry Fighting Vehicle under Land 400 Phase 3, a program worth $18-27 billion.

www.australiandefence.com.au

That sort of money would buy thousands of ATGMs, Armed UAVs, Loitering Munitions etc and still leave plenty left over!

You don’t think light infantry would be more vulnerable in such an environment? Tanks and IFVs save lives unless you are prepared to use your infantry as cannon fodder i.e western front in WW1.

 

[Redlands18]

As has been said by Senior Members here on DT, Armour does not fight alone, it fights as part of a combined Arms approach that starts with decent ISR, Air Spt, Medium to Long Range Fires, Logistics, Command and Control, Training, discipline, Leadership, equipment of decent quality that is properly maintained and well defined Strategic objectives. Fall down in any one of these areas, then you are going to suffer higher then expected losses or even total failure of objectives. Armour and Infantry are the Spear Point but can only ever be as good as the Shaft it is attached to, as strong as the Arm wielding it.

 

[STURM]

Seeing the vulnerability of armoured vehicles in Ukraine has to at least make one pause

Armoured vehicles in the right operational context can always be vulnerable; whether in the Middle East; wars in the former Soviet Union [Tajikistan, Moldova, Chechnya and Georgia] ; etc. What we are seeing in the Ukraine is nothing new.

The budget for a new IFV alone is simply staggering.

If one desires a certain capability; there's no escaping the need to spend a certain amount of money.

 

[Bob53]

You don’t think light infantry would be more vulnerable in such an environment? Tanks and IFVs save lives unless you are prepared to use your infantry as cannon fodder i.e western front in WW1.

The infantry have to ride something. Truck? MRAP or IFV?

 

[Bob53]

As has been said by Senior Members here on DT, Armour does not fight alone, it fights as part of a combined Arms approach that starts with decent ISR, Air Spt, Medium to Long Range Fires, Logistics, Command and Control, Training, discipline, Leadership, equipment of decent quality that is properly maintained and well defined Strategic objectives. Fall down in any one of these areas, then you are going to suffer higher then expected losses or even total failure of objectives. Armour and Infantry are the Spear Point but can only ever be as good as the Shaft it is attached to, as strong as the Arm wielding it.

Don’t disagree unless it’s the Russian army …..

 

[STURM]

We're getting off topic here but I wouldn't be so quick to mske asumptions on the overall ability of the Russian army based on its initial performance given the various factors at play.

 

[MARKMILES77]

="STURM, post: 399362, member: 21714"



If one desires a certain capability; there's no escaping the need to spend a certain amount of money.

Important point. Raises so many questions.
Why does the Army/Australian Government desire such a capability?
Is it really the best use of those billions of dollars for Army

 

[ADMk2]

Seeing the vulnerability of armoured vehicles in Ukraine has to at least make one pause and ask the question is the massive amount of money proposed to be spent on armoured vehicles good value for money.
The budget for a new IFV alone is simply staggering.

Final bids in for Land 400 Phase 3 - Australian Defence Magazine

Hanwha and Rheinmetall have submitted their final offerings for the Australian Army's next Infantry Fighting Vehicle under Land 400 Phase 3, a program worth $18-27 billion.

www.australiandefence.com.au

That sort of money would buy thousands of ATGMs, Armed UAVs, Loitering Munitions etc and still leave plenty left over!

What the current war reinforces, is that TTP’s, doctrine, fieldcraft and battlefield discipline remain far more important than technology...

Videos of known, capable ATGW’s engaging static Cold War era vehicles or Russian forces who clearly aren’t even trained well enough to know why they should cover their arcs of fire, should probably not be used to assess the use of armour, in the hands of a modern, competent user…

 

[MARKMILES77]

You don’t think light infantry would be more vulnerable in such an environment? Tanks and IFVs save lives unless you are prepared to use your infantry as cannon fodder i.e western front in WW1.

Maybe, but it may be we are witnessing a revolution where it is Drones, Loitering Munitions and ATGMs which save infantry lives and not tanks and IFVs.

 

[ADMk2]

Boeing’s Insitu “Integrator“ Tactical UAV system has won Army’s LAND 129 Phase 3 project, with 24 air systems, ground systems, integration work and so to be acquired between 2023-2024.

Will be based at Gallipoli Barracks Enoggera with (I presume) 20th Regiment (Surveillance and Target Acquisition), Royal Australian Artillery replacing the RQ-7B Shadow 200.

Australian Army invests $650 million in uncrewed aerial systems | Defence Ministers

Joint media release: Member for Brisbane, the Hon Trevor Evans MPTwenty-four new uncrewed aerial surveillance systems, manufactured in Brisbane, will be acquired by the Australian Army as part of a $650 million investment announced today.Defence has selected Boeing’s Insitu Pacific Pty Ltd to...

www.minister.defence.gov.au