Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates 2.0

[ADMk2]

Agree, I think Port Kembla fits the bill nicely.

A year or two ago, when the possibility of an East Coast base came up for the Attack class, I had a good look at Google Earth.

I passed on Brisbane pretty early, primarily due to the extreme flooding (this is before the current flooding too).

I looked at both Sydney and Newcastle, but both ports have become very ‘yuppified’, a large part of the old working dock space has been converted into something or other.

And then there was Port Kembla, in the South/East corner of the outer harbour, there appears to be a large section that doesn’t appear to be used or allocated.

If Port Kembla is chosen, that’s the likely location.

View attachment 48997

Additionally the political aspect of Port Kembla is likely very attractive, with plenty of recent unemployment in steel and petrolleum industries.

$10b in base expenditure during build and sustainment, not to mention local sustainment for the subs themselves, would add a lot to the local economy there.

Plus it isn’t “terribly” far from Twofold Bay…

 

[Mark_Evans]

And just up the road at Wollongong is the Australian National Centre for Ocean Resources & Security (ANCORS)

 

[Milne Bay]

Additionally the political aspect of Port Kembla is likely very attractive, with plenty of recent unemployment in steel and petrolleum industries.

$10b in base expenditure during build and sustainment, not to mention local sustainment for the subs themselves, would add a lot to the local economy there.

Plus it isn’t “terribly” far from Twofold Bay…

Well, I hope that the merits of each of the alternatives are truly considered before the decision is made, and it doesn't become a case of whichever barrel gets the most "pork"
Easy access to the continental shelf and a harbour not susceptible to riverine flooding makes Port Kembla very attractive, and Brisbane a poor choice IMHO
MB

 

[Scott Elaurant]

Further to the possibility of Port Kembla as an east coast SSN base the 2011 study into FBE options for subs can be found here:

Wayback Machine

web.archive.org

Brisbane is not only flood prone but has a very long transit time to get clear of the shallow areas of Moreton Bay (over 30 km).

As coal exports dwindle Port Kembla space available is likely to increase. Port Kembla also has some useful industrial capacity located nearby in Woolongong, plus a university there to train engineers.

The employment impact of this will be considerable. Four SSNs with crew and a rotation of crews means 800 crew housed nearby plus more (1000+) maintenance and sustainment staff, plus around a $4 billion construction job to build a base from scratch (going on recent UK costs to build a new base for the Dreadnought Class). the rest of teh $10 billion is presumably upgrads for Stirling, ASC and ANSTO and ARPANSA as the intended nuclear regulators.

 

[Bob53]

And already reading the usual suspects coming out against Port Kembla. Port Kembla on submarine base shortlist

 

[StobieWan]

Were the problems experienced by the Canadians really a result of the submarines sitting idle for a few years?

The entry into service of the Collins class was also less than ideal. If we were to get an old boat from the US at least you could be assured of a proven design.

A lot of them were - they'd been stored with no consideration to long term effects, picked over for parts and were materially in poor condition. The RAN took a hard look at them and walked away. I think they'd have been great boats if transferred "hot",

 

[ASSAIL]

And already reading the usual suspects coming out against Port Kembla. Port Kembla on submarine base shortlist

I have to wryly smile when the MUA states it stands for “peace and justice”.
It’s a pity those principles aren’t applied to their industrial activities.

 

[icelord]

I have to wryly smile when the MUA states it stands for “peace and justice”.
It’s a pity those principles aren’t applies to their industrial activities.

IIRC the council "nuclear ban" is a nice lil sign they put as you enter the City and thats as far as its power extends as its non-binding...especially in a region powered by Nuclear power plant.

 

[DDG38]

IIRC the council "nuclear ban" is a nice lil sign they put as you enter the City and thats as far as its power extends as its non-binding...especially in a region powered by Nuclear power plant.

Which region are you talking about ? Which region in Australia is powered by a nuclear power plant ?

 

[Redlands18]

IIRC the council "nuclear ban" is a nice lil sign they put as you enter the City and thats as far as its power extends as its non-binding...especially in a region powered by Nuclear power plant.

Sorry but Lucas Heights is not a Power Plant, It's a small Research Reactor for Medical Research and producing Isotopes.

 

[icelord]

Sorry, i was of the mistaken belief some power was distributed to the power network

 

[Beam]

Sorry, i was of the mistaken belief some power was distributed to the power network

From memory, there was power distribution (very limited) from the old HIFAR reactor, since decommissioned, but not sure about the new one.


regards,

 

[StingrayOZ]

Both Port Kembla and Newcastle are facing some big challenges.
Port Kembla, well we don't make steel like we used to and nor is exporting coal going to be going forward. Will this continue without coal?

Newcastle, exporting coal won't last forever. Either will the coal powerstations.
Tomago aluminium is Australia's largest aluminium smelter. How long that will last without the coal generation.

Sorry but Lucas Heights is not a Power Plant, It's a small Research Reactor for Medical Research and producing Isotopes.

Its home to ANSTO, essentially the heart of nuclear science in Australia for ~70 years. There were 3 reactors on the site (MOATA, Hifar, OPAL), two have been defuelled, MOATA completely disassembled (it was tiny). HIFAR is still there, just not operational. All are research/medical reactors. But they are real reactors, the sites have fuel storage, reactor vessel, etc. They are similar in output to a small They run nuclear training, they have a prototype Silex laser refinement line. Lots of research happens at the site. In terms of thermal power, HIFAR/OPAL are similar in thermal output to the earliest submarine reactors, but they are in a very different configuration and they do not generate power.

No power at all. There is no steam turbine on the site for them, they are open pools.

But there are nuclear scientists there. Nuclear safety training programs, the nuclear regulator ARPANSA. UNSW has a very strong nuclear program and does excellent nuclear research (SILEX was spun out of UNSW). I know a guy who used to work at ANSTO, who now works for the UN as a Nuclear inspector in Europe. People have lived their entire lives working in the nuclear field in that region.

Both Newcastle and Port Kembla have been badly damaged by heavy industry and coal burning. Both could be sites for a potential nuclear power station, if we were ever to go there. I see 60 minutes has a thing on this week on nuclear power. A discussion

Local communities are always cautious about nuclear stuff. Fair enough, but both have large commercial/industrial districts.

Brisbane is an oddity though. Don't know how that would work. Particularly given the CBD was underwater a few days ago.

 

[ADMk2]

Brisbane is an oddity though. Don't know how that would work. Particularly given the CBD was underwater a few days ago.

Underwater? A submarine would be perfect then!

Don’t mind me, I’ll just make my own way out…

 

[ddxx]

A random thought - could it potentially make some sense to explore an 'Auxiliary' branch of the RAN? Absorbing all defence and government owned research, supply, sealift and survey vessels into one streamlined outfit with mixed civilian crews?

 

[icelord]

A random thought - could it potentially make some sense to explore an 'Auxiliary' branch of the RAN? Absorbing all defence and government owned research, supply, sealift and survey vessels into one streamlined outfit with mixed civilian crews?

With the way Maritime workers union is militant and Political holding ADF resources at ransom because of some stoush with the Government. ..pass

 

[ASSAIL]

A lot of them were - they'd been stored with no consideration to long term effects, picked over for parts and were materially in poor condition. The RAN took a hard look at them and walked away. I think they'd have been great boats if transferred "hot",

Another prime issue (reported) was that the boats electrical cabling was unacceptably below the required specs, an issue that had disastrous consequence.

Chicoutimi Submarine Fire

HMCS Chicoutimi is one of four used submarines Canada purchased from Britain in the late 1990s. In 2004, on its maiden voyage under command of the Royal Cana...

www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca

 

[Takao]

A random thought - could it potentially make some sense to explore an 'Auxiliary' branch of the RAN? Absorbing all defence and government owned research, supply, sealift and survey vessels into one streamlined outfit with mixed civilian crews?

Like an RFA?

Tried selling that. Yes it comes at a cost. Yes the ships (probably) won't turn a profit. Yes the Unions are likely to become stronger.

Frankly, I don't care. I need sea lift, the RAN needs hydro and RAS ships. The RFA is a success of more than 100 years. We can write the obligations and contracts and the like to minimise domestic risk.

But, I couldn't.

Le sigh

 

[John Newman]

A random thought - could it potentially make some sense to explore an 'Auxiliary' branch of the RAN? Absorbing all defence and government owned research, supply, sealift and survey vessels into one streamlined outfit with mixed civilian crews?

So, bring ships, and other maritime vessels, from a whole range of various non related Government departments together under one umbrella?

Can’t see the value or how it would work.

Plus you end up creating yet another level of bureaucratic bull$hit, and the cost of that new organisation too.

 

[Scott Elaurant]

Apologies if this should go on the other general thread. I thought this article might be of interest to people on this forum because it is a report of a naval attack on a Russian stealth corvette by a Ukrainian missile in the Black Sea. No idea how many missiles were fired or even what kind. at some point analysis of this conflict should be applied to future Australian naval purchases too. Stories like this suggest small naval combatants with limited AA are very vulnerable even just getting near a hostile shore, never mind enemy air strike units or large ships.

Ukrainian Navy in deadly attack on Russian stealth warship

A Russian Navy large patrol corvette has been targeted in a missile attack from territory controlled by Ukrainian Armed Forces, according to Taras Chmut, head of the Ukrainian Military Center think-tank. “According to preliminary information from the Command of the Ukrainian Navy, a missile...

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