Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates 2.0

[StingrayOZ]

Examples of which can't fit in a standard torpedo tube like TLAM, and that's exactly why the US has gone down the VLS path.

TLAM can be fired from a tube, this is how the UK deploys its TLAM capability. Only from its submarines, only from the torpedo tubes.

Tomahawk Cruise Missile - Think Defence

The Tomahawk Land Attack Cruise Missile (TLAM) is a precision weapon that launches from ships and submarines and can precisely strike targets from 1000 miles away.

www.thinkdefence.co.uk

The US has VLS in submarines for a different reasons. CONOPs, design and capability. US submarines have only four tubes mid ship, since skipjack build back in the 50's early 60's. It makes sense for them to separate torpedo's and missiles, particularly given it uses otherwise unused space. IMO its not really a huge issue for Australia. We don't currently deploy TLAM on Collins.

Hypersonics and future weapons and drones are a different issue. VPM are super neat and flexible. The US is a whole generation beyond normal VLS.

The nuclear submarines is bipartisan, labor would be included on the meetings going forward and AFAIK fully supports the concept. It has to be, this isn't something you can toilet just because the other guys get in. It needs to survive multiple changes on all sides. That doesn't mean there aren't differences in timelines, funding execution etc, just core concepts.

AUKUS is one of the few totally bipartisan things going around at the moment. AU-UK-US collaboration is pretty much completely bi-partisan in each country (although elements in UK labour are a bit flakey).

AUKUS caucus: Republicans and Democrats find a topic they can agree on

Despite political divisions, there is “high interest” among both Democrats and Republicans to make AUKUS succeed in the face of a more aggressive China.

www.smh.com.au

There are really two things:

• What submarine are we getting (and how is it getting here)?
• What are we doing until they get here?

Choules won’t ever become the PSV, by the time she is replaced by one of the JSS, she’ll be too old and off for scrapping or sold to a 2nd tier navy.

I kind of giggle that. Choules will be too old to serve by ~2030.. You may be right, but the comment is a bit odd. Meanwhile, currently, we are likely to have Anzac and Collins serving until mid 40's as front line combatants both with limited growth potential. All of the Collins boats and all the Anzac ships are older than Choules. Both HMAS Collins and HMAS Anzac are 10+ years older than Collins. Using that logic, we should be retiring them now.

 

[Redlands18]

Given the success of the of the Turkish Bayraktar TB2 UAV drones on Russian ground vehicles in Ukraine, does anyone know of any plans to fly something equivalent off the Canberra Class?

No there is no publicly announced plans to operate UAVs in this class off of RAN ships.

 

[Stampede]

No there is no publicly announced plans to operate UAVs in this class off of RAN ships.

Agree that nothing has been publicly mentioned for UAV's off the Canberra Class, but over in Turkey they are actively looking at a Plan B for not getting the F35B.
Domestically produced UAV's for their LHD TCG Anadolu will be their way forward.

If they can successfully marry this capability to what is actually the sister ship of both the Canberra Class and Spain's Juan Carlos 1, then I'd be very surprised if we didn't take note of what such a capability brings to the fleet.

Turkey’s TCG Anadolu to allow drones to land, takeoff in global 1st

Turkey’s flagship-to-be amphibious assault ship TCG Anadolu is a vessel that will change the paradigm on the seas, Defense Industries Presidency (SSB)...

www.dailysabah.com

Time will tell

Regards S

 

[Gryphinator]

I've just heard on the radio an east coast submarine base is being announced today by the PM. Didn't say where though sadly. 50 bucks on Newcastle though....

 

[Morgo]

Nuclear submarine base for the east coast

Australian, US and British uranium-powered vessels will sail the Tasman Sea under a $10 billion plan to build a naval base between Wollongong and Brisbane.

www.afr.com

AFR is reporting the same. Paywalled, sorry.

They’ve narrowed it down to “somewhere between Wollongong and Brisbane.”

 

[StingrayOZ]

Specifically:

After 19 sites were initially reviewed by the Defence Department, three have been narrowed down as the home of the new submarine base. These are Port Kembla in Wollongong, Newcastle and Brisbane.

Which is basically what is already known. IMO. I too would go with Newcastle given the odds. But there have always been plenty of surprises with the sub announcements, anything can happen.

As for the rest, a $10b boost in defence spending. March 29 pre election budget should be interesting. Albanese will address Lowy Institute on Thursday, seemly releasing Labors defence agenda pre election. Dutton rules out building more Collins class.

 

[alexsa]

IMO other than the slightly larger crew size, the Virginia Class has always appeared to be the more 'straight forward' option.

That being said, quoted crew sizes and actual crew size required can be two very different things - especially when comparing between two different navies.

VLS is certainly a no-brainer both for through-life flexibility and considering the billions being invested in hypersonic and long range strike missiles. Examples of which can't fit in a standard torpedo tube like TLAM, and that's exactly why the US has gone down the VLS path.

Just to confirm, but I think you are saying this, The Astutes and the Trafs can fire TLAM from torpedo tubes. Both the block IV Virginia and Astutes carry 38 weapons (as a mix of torpedoes and TLAM) while I understand the Block IV carries 37 (12 in VLS and 25 for tubes). The VLS is a great capability but it limits the number of torpedoes that can be carried. The Astute is a hunter killer an will have a significant ASW role. More torpedoes may be an advantage.

I suspect we will have to wait for the report of the task group to determine what is the primary focus of the capability. This has been discussed at length in the original RAN thread.

 

[Morgo]

Just to confirm, but I think you are saying this, The Astutes and the Trafs can fire TLAM from torpedo tubes. Both the block IV Virginia and Astutes carry 38 weapons (as a mix of torpedoes and TLAM) while I understand the Block IV carries 37 (12 in VLS and 25 for tubes). The VLS is a great capability but it limits the number of torpedoes that can be carried. The Astute is a hunter killer an will have a significant ASW role. More torpedoes may be an advantage.

I suspect we will have to wait for the report of the task group to determine what is the primary focus of the capability. This has been discussed at length in the original RAN thread.

One new piece of information this morning however are the reports (including in the article I linked earlier) that the government’s preference is to lease LA class subs for the next 10 years before joining the Virginia production line. Phil Coorey is usually pretty reliable in his reporting, I doubt he has made this up.

IIRC there were a number of LA boats with relatively young hulls mothballed. Perhaps BAE / Rolls Royce will refuel and update one or two, providing the UK link.

 

[Unric]

One new piece of information this morning however are the reports (including in the article I linked earlier) that the government’s preference is to lease LA class subs for the next 10 years before joining the Virginia production line. Phil Coorey is usually pretty reliable in his reporting, I doubt he has made this up.

IIRC there were a number of LA boats with relatively young hulls mothballed. Perhaps BAE / Rolls Royce will refuel and update one or two, providing the UK link.

The low mileage ones are getting very long in the tooth now. I suggest that their storage would have to have been pretty good for them to still be useful (Upholder anyone?). Having said that, some of the ones still in service have been going well over 30 years so maybe you could get some life after a major overhaul? This impending announcement will be very interesting...

 

[Milne Bay]

The low mileage ones are getting very long in the tooth now. I suggest that their storage would have to have been pretty good for them to still be useful (Upholder anyone?). Having said that, some of the ones still in service have been going well over 30 years so maybe you could get some life after a major overhaul? This impending announcement will be very interesting...

It looks like a possible list of one ......................... USS Providence, with the possibility of Buffalo and Houston - the latter two having no VLS
MB

 

[Unric]

Another could be be the Miami? Damaged in a fire and judged too expensive to be worth fixing at the time ($700m USD in 2014). She's an 688i and only been out of service for ~8 years but hard to know with the fire damage. If they do go ahead, I hope they do due diligence. No more Newport/Kanimbla's please.

 

[Mark_Evans]

I've just heard on the radio an east coast submarine base is being announced today by the PM. Didn't say where though sadly. 50 bucks on Newcastle though....

Sounds like Defence preference is Pt Kembla with alternatives of Brisbane and Newcastle on the table.

 

[Milne Bay]

Sounds like Defence preference is Pt Kembla with alternatives of Brisbane and Newcastle on the table.

ADBR are reporting the same choices but with the following:
Initial scoping works are expected to be completed in 2023 before a final decision of the location – which will also be informed by the work underway now by the Nuclear Submarine Task Force – is made.

New east coast nuclear submarine base to be established | ADBR

Prime Minister Scott Morrison will today announce that a new submarine base will be established on Australia’s east coast to support the Royal Australian Navy’s planned nuclear powered attack submarines.…

adbr.com.au

 

[old faithful]

I've just heard on the radio an east coast submarine base is being announced today by the PM. Didn't say where though sadly. 50 bucks on Newcastle though....

My $ is on Port Kembla. Close to Jervis Bay and Sydney Harbour, closer to the continental shelf, not a river, flood proof, and it's a deep water port , pretty much ready to go.

 

[Gryphinator]

My $ is on Port Kembla. Close to Jervis Bay and Sydney Harbour, closer to the continental shelf, not a river, flood proof, and it's a deep water port , pretty much ready to go.

I have no skin in the game but I thought newy for the large amount of coal traffic in and out-good for covering tracks as it were-obviously that works both ways

 

[StingrayOZ]

It looks like a possible list of one ......................... USS Providence, with the possibility of Buffalo and Houston - the latter two having no VLS
MB

Doesn't have to be. There are subs coming up for decommissioning. I imagine any planning would be looking hard at the i688 ones, which will be decommissioned in the next 12-24 months. If we get any subs from the US I presume the idea is they will stay in service for a long period of time. I would imagine they would want to keep it the same flight as what the US is operating. Logistics for the out of service types will have likely been wound up.

Nearly all the pre 688 are gone or going. If we are getting LA boats, the i688 would be desirable as operational boats.

You really want the boats to be as fresh as possible, even if they are having a significant upgrade. Ask the Canadians what subs are like once they are sitting unmaintained for a few years. You will spend more money and time just getting them up to speed than they have been spent rotting. Ones in defuelling may allow hand over quicker.

I wonder if they will use Miami's fuel rods. Do we need full life reactors?
The US has a large number of boats, you can afford to be choosey.

 

[Lolcake]

There was talk of refuelling the last 4 to 6 production boats of the 688i. That includes the Cheyenne among others. Perhaps we will see the cost absorbed by us and these subsequently transferred. I strongly doubt we will be able to tap into the US production line until the block Vs are done, which matches what Dutton was saying of an in service date by early to mid 2030. But who knows. All speculation at this point.

 

[hauritz]

Were the problems experienced by the Canadians really a result of the submarines sitting idle for a few years?

The entry into service of the Collins class was also less than ideal. If we were to get an old boat from the US at least you could be assured of a proven design.

 

[John Newman]

My $ is on Port Kembla. Close to Jervis Bay and Sydney Harbour, closer to the continental shelf, not a river, flood proof, and it's a deep water port , pretty much ready to go.

Agree, I think Port Kembla fits the bill nicely.

A year or two ago, when the possibility of an East Coast base came up for the Attack class, I had a good look at Google Earth.

I passed on Brisbane pretty early, primarily due to the extreme flooding (this is before the current flooding too).

I looked at both Sydney and Newcastle, but both ports have become very ‘yuppified’, a large part of the old working dock space has been converted into something or other.

And then there was Port Kembla, in the South/East corner of the outer harbour, there appears to be a large section that doesn’t appear to be used or allocated.

If Port Kembla is chosen, that’s the likely location.

 

[JulioCompactus]

Close to Lucas Heights as well which is home to ANSTO.