New Zealand Army

[Stuart M]

I take your point, although of course that deployment decision assumes remarkably good intel - and events can change rapidly once NZ forces are deployed. For example, it would be quite deniable for a certain dragon empire to embroil ANZAC forces into a 'peaceful' intervention, and then provide local supporters with tube-launched armed drones (controlled from afar) to inflict chaos

I quite agree with this, and as much as I am loathe to say it, I would think that the possibility of this sort of thing would be excuse enough to deter deployments at all beyond disaster relief. Should go without saying that one could use that lack of deployment of "war making equipment" as a reason to not replace frigates, artillery, LAVs etc, as was the late lamented air combat arm.

In any event its quite easy to see how a certain dragon empire who shall remain nameless can have a coercive effect on NZ foreign and defence policy by playing on NZs already established dovish ideologies.

 

[Gooey]

I quite agree with this, and as much as I am loathe to say it, I would think that the possibility of this sort of thing would be excuse enough to deter deployments at all beyond disaster relief. Should go without saying that one could use that lack of deployment of "war making equipment" as a reason to not replace frigates, artillery, LAVs etc, as was the late lamented air combat arm.

Yes, the ultimate peace dividend in that we can't fight a war b/c we are not equipped/trained/manned to do so. Like dispanding ACF, it makes perfect sense if you believe UN talk-talk will be the sole basis to solve world problems and that we'll never face armed conflict in the South Pacific/benign strategic environment, ... ever again, in the course of the rest of the history of mankind. Look how that turned out for Germany, over the course of this weekend after a mere 30 years; $130B just added to their defence budget.

WRT what NZ could actually assist Ukraine with: How about shipping some/all of our Javeline ATGM off to help out? I'm guessing that is also part of the Ozi weapons package announced today (Australia sends $70million worth of missiles and bullets to Ukraine).

 

[Stuart M]

NZ could send out its javelin stocks, lots of things NZ could do I'm sure.. but will it? NZGov have thus far declined to do anything more than give 2mil for humanitarian purposes and I think that's begrudging.

In practice NZs dedication to a peaceful rules based international order is beginning to look dubious.

 

[Todjaeger]

NZ could send out its javelin stocks, lots of things NZ could do I'm sure.. but will it? NZGov have thus far declined to do anything more than give 2mil for humanitarian purposes and I think that's begrudging.

In practice NZs dedication to a peaceful rules based international order is beginning to look dubious.

Some things to keep in mind.

Just how large are NZ warstocks, and which ones would NZ need to get authorization before being able to sell/donate/gift/whatever to the Ukraine?

Using the Javelin ATGM as an example, IIRC I read somewhere that at one point NZ only had 16 launchers. If the current situation remains similar, then even sending four launchers would deplete 25% of the NZ Army's AT capability. Plus the missiles & launchers themselves are US in origin IIRC, which means needing approval from the US. Given the situation I think NZ would get such approval, but it would not necessarily be immediate.

There is also the potential issue of what the state of NZ munitions would be following any warstocks getting sent to the Ukraine. Either NZ stocks would get drawn down further than they already likely are, or a top-up/replacement procurement would need to be done, which would require additional funding for Vote Defence.

There is of course the potential opportunity for NZ to draw down currently existing stocks following up with replacements which would be new to NZ service, all while essentially getting ride of kit that NZ would otherwise dispose of or mothball. The Mistral MANPADS come to mind as possibly being something worth donating, seeing that they have been pulled from NZ use.

 

[Shanesworld]

Some things to keep in mind.

Just how large are NZ warstocks, and which ones would NZ need to get authorization before being able to sell/donate/gift/whatever to the Ukraine?

Using the Javelin ATGM as an example, IIRC I read somewhere that at one point NZ only had 16 launchers. If the current situation remains similar, then even sending four launchers would deplete 25% of the NZ Army's AT capability. Plus the missiles & launchers themselves are US in origin IIRC, which means needing approval from the US. Given the situation I think NZ would get such approval, but it would not necessarily be immediate.

There is also the potential issue of what the state of NZ munitions would be following any warstocks getting sent to the Ukraine. Either NZ stocks would get drawn down further than they already likely are, or a top-up/replacement procurement would need to be done, which would require additional funding for Vote Defence.

There is of course the potential opportunity for NZ to draw down currently existing stocks following up with replacements which would be new to NZ service, all while essentially getting ride of kit that NZ would otherwise dispose of or mothball. The Mistral MANPADS come to mind as possibly being something worth donating, seeing that they have been pulled from NZ use.

24 launchers 4 trainers, 120 initial rounds but i think there was a second buy. They still have state dept no.s on them so mot sure we can ttansfer them without permission.

 

[Arclighy]

NZ could send out its javelin stocks, lots of things NZ could do I'm sure.. but will it? NZGov have thus far declined to do anything more than give 2mil for humanitarian purposes and I think that's begrudging.

In practice NZs dedication to a peaceful rules based international order is beginning to look dubious.

From my point of view, it is no surprise that NZ hasn't released any funds for lethal military aid in Ukraine. It is consistent with the current NZ Government's approach to International relations, military related issues, and an emphasis on HADR. I will also summize that in the same areas, Australia does very little these days where they don't have eye's cast to the Indo Pacific region and to the north. Messages, both explicit and implicit are very clearly sent every day. Thus you have a very significant military and humanitarian package of over $100 million announced to Ukraine. No doubt, it will be noted by interested parties further afield.
NZ has clearly stated that the $2 million announced as aid to Ukraine is an initial amount. I take the NZ Government at their word, bearing in mind, there should be little expectation of lethal military aid. I will be interested to see what extra medical and other non lethal aid NZ will be sending. Either way, l am sure all aid to Ukraine is needed and welcome.
Just my thoughts.

 

[ngatimozart]

Me being me I would like to see the NZ Govt forward a seven or eight figure sum to NATO or the EU for the purchase of arms to be given to the Ukrainian Armed Forces.

 

[Stuart M]

From my point of view, it is no surprise that NZ hasn't released any funds for lethal military aid in Ukraine. It is consistent with the current NZ Government's approach to International relations, military related issues, and an emphasis on HADR. I will also summize that in the same areas, Australia does very little these days where they don't have eye's cast to the Indo Pacific region and to the north. Messages, both explicit and implicit are very clearly sent every day. Thus you have a very significant military and humanitarian package of over $100 million announced to Ukraine. No doubt, it will be noted by interested parties further afield.
NZ has clearly stated that the $2 million announced as aid to Ukraine is an initial amount. I take the NZ Government at their word, bearing in mind, there should be little expectation of lethal military aid. I will be interested to see what extra medical and other non lethal aid NZ will be sending. Either way, l am sure all aid to Ukraine is needed and welcome.
Just my thoughts.

NZ aid that's welcome I'm sure, but not particularly helpful in stopping the Russian army overrunning your nation, which I suspect is the Ukraine's primary objective.

 

[Stuart M]

Some things to keep in mind.

Just how large are NZ warstocks, and which ones would NZ need to get authorization before being able to sell/donate/gift/whatever to the Ukraine?

Using the Javelin ATGM as an example, IIRC I read somewhere that at one point NZ only had 16 launchers. If the current situation remains similar, then even sending four launchers would deplete 25% of the NZ Army's AT capability. Plus the missiles & launchers themselves are US in origin IIRC, which means needing approval from the US. Given the situation I think NZ would get such approval, but it would not necessarily be immediate.

There is also the potential issue of what the state of NZ munitions would be following any warstocks getting sent to the Ukraine. Either NZ stocks would get drawn down further than they already likely are, or a top-up/replacement procurement would need to be done, which would require additional funding for Vote Defence.

There is of course the potential opportunity for NZ to draw down currently existing stocks following up with replacements which would be new to NZ service, all while essentially getting ride of kit that NZ would otherwise dispose of or mothball. The Mistral MANPADS come to mind as possibly being something worth donating, seeing that they have been pulled from NZ use.

Indeed, hence my comment above about direct purchases of ATGMs etc on behalf of Ukraine in Europe.

 

[jbc388]

Me being me I would like to see the NZ Govt forward a seven or eight figure sum to NATO or the EU for the purchase of arms to be given to the Ukrainian Armed Forces.

The problem with that is the current Labour Govt/ Greens have their heads in the sand so deep they can't see what the hell is actually happening in the world.
If we actually sent lethal military aid the Greens would have a meltdown!! and also I suspect members of the Labour party as well.

They place all their trust in the UN, which is a mistake by the time the UN arranges meetings, then talks about what to do, then vote it's usually too late.
The other problem with NZ govts this also includes National as well! they are just as guilty over the last 30 years they have run down major equipement until it's nearly useless, not replaced ships, aircraft, etc, etc with modern gear! reducing the numbers for example the NH90's
The Govt really needs to open it's eyes and see what is happening in Europe, The Pacific etc and start to increase the defence budget and not rely on the west island for just about everything!

 

[RegR]

The problem with that is the current Labour Govt/ Greens have their heads in the sand so deep they can't see what the hell is actually happening in the world.
If we actually sent lethal military aid the Greens would have a meltdown!! and also I suspect members of the Labour party as well.

They place all their trust in the UN, which is a mistake by the time the UN arranges meetings, then talks about what to do, then vote it's usually too late.
The other problem with NZ govts this also includes National as well! they are just as guilty over the last 30 years they have run down major equipement until it's nearly useless, not replaced ships, aircraft, etc, etc with modern gear! reducing the numbers for example the NH90's
The Govt really needs to open it's eyes and see what is happening in Europe, The Pacific etc and start to increase the defence budget and not rely on the west island for just about everything!

What has NZ relied on for just about everything from the West Island out of interest? I presume you mean Australia.

 

[RegR]

I highly doubt NZ will donate weapons to the Ukraine during all this but will instead go the humanitarian route for the people, which will be seen as helping by freeing up funds from more direct countries to then donate militarily. Not really this govts style, they have a hard enough time donating to our own military Never mind someone elses.

 

[Redlands18]

They place all their trust in the UN, which is a mistake by the time the UN arranges meetings, then talks about what to do, then vote it's usually too late.
The other problem with NZ govts this also includes National as well! they are just as guilty over the last 30 years they have run down major equipement until it's nearly useless, not replaced ships, aircraft, etc, etc with modern gear! reducing the numbers for example the NH90's
The Govt really needs to open it's eyes and see what is happening in Europe, The Pacific etc and start to increase the defence budget and not rely on the west island for just about everything!

Of course we had the absolute farce of the UN Security Council attempting to sanction Russia, of course Russia just blocked it, I was surprised they even bothered trying.

 

[jbc388]

What has NZ relied on for just about everything from the West Island out of interest? I presume you mean Australia.

Yes that's what I mean Australia (the west island), the NZ govt's have been doing the absolute minimum regarding defence sometimes less than that.

 

[RegR]

Yes that's what I mean Australia (the west island), the NZ govt's have been doing the absolute minimum regarding defence sometimes less than that.

Yes, so back to the question, when has NZ relied on Australia for just about everything? I'm actually interested in what just about everything actually is?

 

[jbc388]

Yes, so back to the question, when has NZ relied on Australia for just about everything? I'm actually interested in what just about everything actually is?

We rely that Australians will stump

Yes, so back to the question, when has NZ relied on Australia for just about everything? I'm actually interested in what just about everything actually is?

NZ is relying on the australians for the strategic security of our part of the world, we don't have a large enough/rescurced defence force capable of combat anymore!! let along helping anyone else!

 

[swerve]

Of course we had the absolute farce of the UN Security Council attempting to sanction Russia, of course Russia just blocked it, I was surprised they even bothered trying.

They tried just to show who was in favour & who was against. I think the vote was 11-1 in favour with 3 abstaining.

 

[kiwi in exile]

Someone posted this in the RNZN thread (thanks).
U.S. Marines fly Unmanned Aircraft System in New Zealand

The war in Ukraine is demonstrating value of drones.
The US is now supplying the Ukrainains with 100 x swithblade 'kamikaze' drones. These are manufactured by the same company as the puma UAV.
Pumas and switchblades can be used in co-operation by deployed forces to decrease the kill chain (both are organic components of a deployed land force, you dont have to call in air support and wait etc).

The larger switchblade (switchblade 600- has a advertised range of 40km, an endurance of 40mins, precision anti-armour capablity (javelin warhead) and is man-portable. Man portable precision anti-armour effects at ranges <40km. This would be an easy affordable means giving our deployed forces stand off precision fires. this system is more useful than a 105mm gun and self propelled artillery.

We would just have to do some PR around 'kamikaze' drones. Funny how people think dropping a lazer guided munition at someone via a screen is abhorrent but lobbing artillery shells at a map co-ordinate is ok.

 

[STURM]

Wars before the Ukraine had already clearly demonstrated the value of UASs. Ironically given all the criticism on their performance in the Ukraine: the Russians were very effective UAS users at a tactical and operational level in the Donbass.

 

[Gooey]

… the Russians were very effective UAS users at a tactical and operational level in the Donbass.

I was wondering the same thing. Speculative only, but wondered if they (RU) only had a limited number of systems; or, just PR reporting prior to this war; or, Ukraine EW have shut them down; or, a combination!