Huawei

[John Fedup]

Another example of junior and company inability to make a timely decision. The hostage situation was no excuse for delaying a ban.
Canadian telecoms spent $700M on Huawei tech while Liberals delayed ban decision (msn.com)

 

[ngatimozart]

Another example of junior and company inability to make a timely decision. The hostage situation was no excuse for delaying a ban.
Canadian telecoms spent $700M on Huawei tech while Liberals delayed ban decision (msn.com)

Huawei appear to have given up on pushing to overturn the NZG ban on them being involved in NZ's 5G network. They ran a publicity campaign for a while, but it seems to have died away. Undoubtedly behind the scenes the CCP are bullying and blustering, but I don't think it has got them anywhere.

 

[aussienscale]

Huawei appear to have given up on pushing to overturn the NZG ban on them being involved in NZ's 5G network. They ran a publicity campaign for a while, but it seems to have died away. Undoubtedly behind the scenes the CCP are bullying and blustering, but I don't think it has got them anywhere.

They have other ways around those road blocks, in Australia, and many other countries, they are the major supplier of WiFi modems to the ISP's.

Those modems are then sent out as part of companies internet plans, first thing I look for when assessing an ISP and my broadband plan is what modem they supply !! They still literally have shite embedded everywhere !!

 

[John Fedup]

What a surprise, yet another Chinese tech company with suspicious products. One would think there would be at least some basic controls on what military, tech companies, and government wrt Chinese communication/computer can utilize from China. Buying SFA seems like a good start.

Common Office Desk Phone Could Be Leaking Info to Chinese Government, Report Alleges

Phones by Yealink have been observed sending encrypted messages to Chinese servers three times a day.

www.defenseone.com

 

[KiwiRob]

What a surprise, yet another Chinese tech company with suspicious products. One would think there would be at least some basic controls on what military, tech companies, and government wrt Chinese communication/computer can utilize from China. Buying SFA seems like a good start.

Common Office Desk Phone Could Be Leaking Info to Chinese Government, Report Alleges

Phones by Yealink have been observed sending encrypted messages to Chinese servers three times a day.

www.defenseone.com

Did you read the article?

“We observed that if the phone is being managed by the device management platform, and if the user’s PC is connected to the phone in order to access a local area network, it's collecting information about what you're surfing”

This is exactly what your mobile phone does, it's what your internet browser does, ever notice how the ads that pop up are almost always related to you recent search history? Nothing you do on the internet or with your smartphone is private, everything is tracked by multiple entities.

I used to work for Telstra, Huawei are one of the most innovative and better performing telecom network providers, they have surpassed the level of tech from western supplier like Cisco, Ericsson and co. The Chinese will continue to take the lead in many more industries, when they are graduating 600k plus engineers every year its inevitable, they gone past copying Western tech and are now making there own. Electric cars are another good example, China has the largest EV market in the world, it has dozens of manufacturers building them, the better models have surpassed anything built in Europe and are in some cases more advanced than what Tesla can produce.

 

[Hoffy]

@ KiwiRob - I have a feeling the issue is that the CCP can by 'law' direct any Chinese company to comply with their requests if deemed necessary or useful. So the concern is whether or not a particular Chinese company is in a position to comply in a manner that compromises potential security considerations in other countries (including NZ)?

 

[KiwiRob]

@ KiwiRob - I have a feeling the issue is that the CCP can by 'law' direct any Chinese company to comply with their requests if deemed necessary or useful. So the concern is whether or not a particular Chinese company is in a position to comply in a manner that compromises potential security considerations in other countries (including NZ)?

How is that any different to what the NSA and other agencies are doing, loads of agencies and private companies are compiling formation on everyone. Unless you live off grid someone somewhere has all sorts of information on you. The NSA were tapping Angel Merkle's phone and computer, and you expect the Chinese to play nice? There is an immense double standard at play. Five Eyes has the same job to listen in to everything, the Chinese have a different way of getting to the same end result.

 

[ngatimozart]

Did you read the article?

“We observed that if the phone is being managed by the device management platform, and if the user’s PC is connected to the phone in order to access a local area network, it's collecting information about what you're surfing”

This is exactly what your mobile phone does, it's what your internet browser does, ever notice how the ads that pop up are almost always related to you recent search history? Nothing you do on the internet or with your smartphone is private, everything is tracked by multiple entities.

I used to work for Telstra, Huawei are one of the most innovative and better performing telecom network providers, they have surpassed the level of tech from western supplier like Cisco, Ericsson and co. The Chinese will continue to take the lead in many more industries, when they are graduating 600k plus engineers every year its inevitable, they gone past copying Western tech and are now making there own. Electric cars are another good example, China has the largest EV market in the world, it has dozens of manufacturers building them, the better models have surpassed anything built in Europe and are in some cases more advanced than what Tesla can produce.

So what, they are still a security risk and as such a security concern. I suggest that you read up on the PRC law that states that all PRC companies and individuals are to provide services and information to the MSS and other organs of state security when asked to. There is no option to refuse.

 

[cdxbow]

Did you read the article?

“We observed that if the phone is being managed by the device management platform, and if the user’s PC is connected to the phone in order to access a local area network, it's collecting information about what you're surfing”

This is exactly what your mobile phone does, it's what your internet browser does, ever notice how the ads that pop up are almost always related to you recent search history? Nothing you do on the internet or with your smartphone is private, everything is tracked by multiple entities.

I used to work for Telstra, Huawei are one of the most innovative and better performing telecom network providers, they have surpassed the level of tech from western supplier like Cisco, Ericsson and co. The Chinese will continue to take the lead in many more industries, when they are graduating 600k plus engineers every year its inevitable, they gone past copying Western tech and are now making there own. Electric cars are another good example, China has the largest EV market in the world, it has dozens of manufacturers building them, the better models have surpassed anything built in Europe and are in some cases more advanced than what Tesla can produce.

I can't say i agree with anything in the last paragraph, but I do agree that it's hard to tell the difference between a 'security backdoor' that's could be left open for device management, because of incompetence or for malicious reasons. Many companies have left external telnet/ssh access in their products.

One of the things that triggered the Huawei concerns around 2010 was the finding of an 'undocumented chip' on a Huawei network PCB by security researchers. Huawei first denied it, then after proof was provided, said they didn't manufacture the boards and blamed the supplier. The chip was disguised as a passive component but was actually a small microprocessor that could redirect a copy of the traffic through the router elsewhere.

The same thing happened in 2015 with Super Micro video server motherboards made in the PRC, they acquired an extra chip- The Big Hack: How China Used a Tiny Chip to Infiltrate U.S. Companies - Bloomberg Everyone affected denied the story, same way banks deny credit card fraud,, However Apple ditched them in 2017 and SuperMicro has switched to Taiwanese made boards. Despite the denials the story has got more legs recently. This is from the Register, who where scathingly sceptical about the SuperMicro story, but now are having to back track.

...the Bloomberg report today does provide a named source, Mukul Kumar, who as chief security officer for FPGA designer Altera claims to have learned of such a spy chip during an unclassified briefing. “This was espionage on the board itself," he is quoted as saying. "There was a chip on the board that was not supposed to be there that was calling home — not to Supermicro but to China."

I think it is pretty convincing that any boards made in the PRC are at risk of this form of hardware hacking, SuperMicro are a US company. So it may be that Huawei are innocent and it's all been 'third parties' but that's irrelevant now, because the trust has gone. Although the recent reports of a senior Huawei engineer trying to put a backdoor into Linux is very disturbing Huawei dev team sends a buggy HKSP patch with backdoor to Linux Foundation - AndroidRookies suggesting to me the company is not 'collateral damage' but a more active participant.

 

[ngatimozart]

How is that any different to what the NSA and other agencies are doing, loads of agencies and private companies are compiling formation on everyone. Unless you live off grid someone somewhere has all sorts of information on you. The NSA were tapping Angel Merkle's phone and computer, and you expect the Chinese to play nice? There is an immense double standard at play. Five Eyes has the same job to listen in to everything, the Chinese have a different way of getting to the same end result.

The NSA and other Western intelligence agencies have political and legal oversight that protects the rights of citizens. They are also government agencies with accountability to a Parliament / Congress. The MSS and other PRC security organs do not have political and legal oversight that protects the rights of citizens, nor are they accountable to a Parliament / Congress. They like the PLA are organs of the CCP, swear allegiance to the CCP and report to the CCP, not the state. Big difference.

This is basic PRC101 BTW and if you had done some research into the PRC you would know this. So disrespect other posters because of your lack of research and knowledge.

It is also how the CPSU / USSR and other communist regimes based upon the Soviet model work. They were and are authoritarian dictatorships with the Party tolerating no opposition whatsoever. Both Stalin and Mao had their purges; Stalin started with the Great Terror during the 1930s, and Mao used the Cultural Revolution to purge the Party of his enemies. Some like Stalin and Mao also instituted policies causing mass famines, with millions dying from starvation; an estimated 20 million because of Mao's Great Leap Forward during the late 1950s. They and the current CCP have a very low regard for human life, and to them the only human rights that matter are the ability to serve the needs of the Party. Anything else doesn't matter.

Dial back the attitude. There is no need for it especially in your reply to @John Fedup post earlier. You may not like being sanctioned but that's the way it is and my job is to Moderate the Forum.

 

[KiwiRob]

The NSA and other Western intelligence agencies have political and legal oversight that protects the rights of citizens. They are also government agencies with accountability to a Parliament / Congress. The MSS and other PRC security organs do not have political and legal oversight that protects the rights of citizens, nor are they accountable to a Parliament / Congress. They like the PLA are organs of the CCP, swear allegiance to the CCP and report to the CCP, not the state. Big difference.

But really do they have effective political and legal oversight, that so called oversight didn't stop the NSA from spying on Angel Merkle did it? Think about it what is the difference between the US spying on you or the Chinese spying on you, or Amazon spying on you. The information provided by Wikileaks, and Edward Snowden also pretty much shows that those political and legal oversights aren't effective.

Bring up the distant past is also irrelevant to this topic.

 

[ngatimozart]

But really do they have effective political and legal oversight, that so called oversight didn't stop the NSA from spying on Angel Merkle did it? Think about it what is the difference between the US spying on you or the Chinese spying on you, or Amazon spying on you. The information provided by Wikileaks, and Edward Snowden also pretty much shows that those political and legal oversights aren't effective.

Ah but who ordered the NSA to spy on Merkel? There will be plenty of plausible deniability, but did the original tasking come from the White House or the State Department? You don't know that and you are presuming it's a rogue operation without any evidence to support your assertion.

WRT Snowden he's a traitor and if he was a genuine whistle blower he had other avenues open to him to air his concerns.

Bring up the distant past is also irrelevant to this topic.

The USSR and CPSU isn't the distant past and when discussing Huawei and the CCP quite relevant. FYI Mao based the structure of the CCP on the CPSU and followed Stalin's methodology.

You don't get the point about the attitude do you. A ban from replying in this thread may be in order to make the point. However that may be a bit much this time. Nine demerit points for six months because this isn't the first time that the Moderators have had to remind you about your attitude. Next time we won't be so lenient and you have been advised that the Moderators were keeping a close eye on your attitude. It is up to you whether or not you do anything about it. Also your gambit of reporting this Moderator's posts when he sanctions you will not help your case either.

 

[KiwiRob]

Ah but who ordered the NSA to spy on Merkel? There will be plenty of plausible deniability, but did the original tasking come from the White House or the State Department? You don't know that and you are presuming it's a rogue operation without any evidence to support your assertion.

WRT Snowden he's a traitor and if he was a genuine whistle blower he had other avenues open to him to air his concerns.

The USSR and CPSU isn't the distant past and when discussing Huawei and the CCP quite relevant. FYI Mao based the structure of the CCP on the CPSU and followed Stalin's methodology.

I doubt there were any rogue elements involved in spying on Merkle, I would presume this is standard operating procedure for the US, they more than likely spy on everyone of importance, just like China, except in your mind this is ok, where as China spying is bad. The reality is all spying is illegal. If the Chinese has a found a better way of doing it all credit to them. T

BTW the NSA were exposed tampering with Cisco equipment,

Glenn Greenwald: how the NSA tampers with US-made internet routers

The NSA has been covertly implanting interception tools in US servers heading overseas – even though the US government has warned against using Chinese technology for the same reasons, says Glenn Greenwald, in an extract from his new book about the Snowden affair, No Place to Hide

www.theguardian.com

But while American companies were being warned away from supposedly untrustworthy Chinese routers, foreign organisations would have been well advised to beware of American-made ones. A June 2010 report from the head of the NSA's Access and Target Development department is shockingly explicit. The NSA routinely receives – or intercepts – routers, servers and other computer network devices being exported from the US before they are delivered to the international customers.

The agency then implants backdoor surveillance tools, repackages the devices with a factory seal and sends them on. The NSA thus gains access to entire networks and all their users. The document gleefully observes that some "SIGINT tradecraft … is very hands-on (literally!)".

Eventually, the implanted device connects back to the NSA. The report continues: "In one recent case, after several months a beacon implanted through supply-chain interdiction called back to the NSA covert infrastructure. This call back provided us access to further exploit the device and survey the network."

How do you justify this? Do you see my point, you can't have a crack at the Chinese when the US does exactly the same thing.

 

[ngatimozart]

Spying is "legitimate" form of intelligence gathering, but for the agents on the ground in opposition territory it can be a very dangerous occupation. In wartime it tends to result in execution and in peacetime, in some countries it can result in an appointment with the executioner. Personally it's not something that I would do because I don't find it an attractive profession. However I do see the requirement for it WRT national security. Remote sensing and other means can be great for gather intelligence, but sometimes it is the person on the ground providing HUMINT (human intelligence) that can be the difference. They notice things that may not be obvious or seen by someone in an office hundreds or thousands of km away, staring at a monitor.

Of course I am not happy about CCP intel OPs and other activities including its covert influence and disinformation programs that it runs within NZ and the wider Pacific region. I wasn't happy when the CPSU ran the same gig, however the CCP have taken it up a couple of levels. I happen to live in a liberal democracy where we have freedoms and rights, and the rule of law exists. If we don't like a government we can tell them to their face and as long as we are don't threaten violence or commit violence against them or their representatives, we don't suffer any repercussions. We get to give the government the boot in a general election if we don't like them and choose someone who we think will do a better job. If we don't like them or the way they did the job we give them the boot too.

The CCP abhors liberal democracies and what they stand for. Unlike a liberal democracy the CCP is authoritarian and dictatorial with only one aim; to remain in power regardless of the will of the population and the consequences to the general population. They are like most of the communist regimes that followed the CPSU mould, especially the Stalinist variant. They don't tolerant any form of opposition whatsoever and the CCP has shown that over time with the most recent example being Hong Kong. But Tiananmen Square in 1989 when Deng Xiao Peng sent in the PLA-GF, or the Cultural Revolution where Mao Zedong organised a counter coup against enemies real and imagined, are good examples of their tolerance to opposition to their rule.

Like Stalin, Mao saw religion as the opium of the masses, so like Stalin he banned all religions and IIRC it was in the 1980s / 90s before religion was begrudgingly accepted by the CCP but under strict caveats. The CCP had to approve each religion and it had to adhere to CCP rules. That way the CCP could control what was being taught and preached. Even the Vatican has to get CCP approval for any appointment of Bishops. However with Falun Gong, which is an exercise regime like tai chi, that also has some philosophical teachings that apparently are Confucian in origin, the CCP couldn't control that so it banned it and outlawed it. They are concerned that Falun Gong and religions will cause the general population to have heretical thoughts and question the legitimacy of the CCP. That's also what is driving the CCP to invest Taiwan so much. They cannot have the example of a very viable and successful Chinese nation and society that is free, capitalistic and not run by the CCP, because it shows the Mainland Chinese that a viable and successful Chinese alternative to the CCP exists, just 100 km offshore.

That is not a society that I wish myself, my kids or grandchildren to live in, where there is no freedom of speech, thought or association, where you cannot go anywhere that you wished and where the society is corrupt and the rule of law doesn't exist. Where you are only taught what the Party wants you to know and everything is else is proscribed. Where such activities such as this forum and more importantly this conversation would see you end up in a concentration camp for re-education with no guarantee of release or survival. Now if you want that, it's fine but not my cup of tea.

I also don't agree with everything that the Americans do either and to be fair there is a lot about what the Americans have done that I don't agree with and I don't like. However there is also much that they done that I do like and respect, as well as the blood bond between our two nations. A lot of Americans (especially USMC) died in the defence of NZ and Australia during WW2, especially during 1942 - 1944. If it wasn't for them the outcome of the war in the South Pacific may have been different. Every time we have had a major natural disaster here they are usually the second after the Aussies to offer help and they do turn up. Two in particular stick in my mind; the Christchurch earthquakes of 2011 and the Kaikoura earthquakes of 2016. They are very actively involved HADR around the region. They are also more closely aligned to our interests than the CCP.

That's my 1 cent worth.

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

They don't tolerant any form of opposition whatsoever and the CCP has shown that over time with the most recent example being Hong Kong. But Tiananmen Square in 1989 when Deng Xiao Peng sent in the PLA-GF

Just a note, a lot of people don't realise that in 1989 Deng's actions were completely unlawful even under the CCP's rules.

At the time Zhao Ziyang, not Deng, was the head of the CCP (General Party Secretary). Zhao could only be legally removed by the Party Congress. Moreover the declaration of martial law itself was illegal, as Deng added other CCP members to the Standing Committee to push the vote through - again, not something he had power to do.

The worst of it was that [it's been stated that] initially the PLA refused to obey orders to make the students leave. The Beijing garrisons (probably noting that their orders were illegal) refused to mobiliseclear the Square, with the top general calling in "sick". Deng instead mobilised veterans of the war with Vietnam, who were poorly educated men from the countryside who didn't know what was actually going on and had been fed disinformation by their superiors that the students were trying to overthrow the country. If you're going to use combat veterans from a brutal war with an equally ideologically tough neighbour to deal with a policing action, you know it's going to end in a bloodbath.

It takes a certain kind of evil to do all that.

 

[ngatimozart]

Deng Xiaoping was still the Chairman of the Central Military Commission and that's where the real authority truly lies, because he who controls the guns controls the party. That's why Jiang Zemin took both roles when he became General Secretary, and also why both Mao and Stalin held both positions. Deng was the paramount leader, and everyone knew it. Why do you think that he's held in such esteem next to Mao, yet he was never General Secretary or Chairman? Even after he retired as Chairman of the CMC and was no longer paramount leader, until his death he still held considerable influence within the Politburo and Central Committee of the CCP. Do you really think that mere rules would concern Deng, Xi, Mao, or others within a CCP Politburo. After all rules are for the guidance of wise men and the following of fools, as far as they are concerned. As long as any decision is shown to be politically sound within the tenants of Marxist Leninist Maoist thought witch Chinese characteristics and is within the rules of the CCP, then it is the correct decision. WRT why the Beijing garrison was not used to remove the students and outside units were bought in, the understanding I have is that the reasoning was that Deng ordered in units who had no previous contact with the students and therefore were not polluted with dangerous ideas.

Your claims about the Beijing garrison refusing to orders to act against the students I find rather doubtful because if the Commanders did that they would have forfeited their lives and possibly the lives of their families. Don't for get that they have political officers embedded in their units to ensure the political reliability of individuals, especially officers. So if you have a reputable, reliable, and verifiable source for your claims I suggest that you share it. I am always happy to learn something new.

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

Deng Xiaoping was still the Chairman of the Central Military Commission and that's where the real authority truly lies, because he who controls the guns controls the party.

Not according to Party rules. The roles of Chairman of the CMC and Party Secretary show a division of power, albeit they can be held by the same person. The Standing Committee has always been the top decision-making body. In 1989 neither the Chairman of the CMC nor the Party Secretary had the right to overrule it.

Had the Standing Committee voted first to declare martial law, Deng may then have had the right to decide how to deal with the situation over any objections from Zhao Ziyang and other doves. But he acted in reverse, deciding military action was required and then fixed a Standing Committee vote in a way that was unlawful.

Do you really think that mere rules would concern Deng, Xi, Mao, or others within a CCP Politburo.

You're sort of making my point. Rules give legitimacy, and the CCP has always maintained it acted appropriately. If Deng could have simply declared martial law as Chairman of the CMC, he wouldn't have needed to stack the Standing Committee with his puppets. Perhaps he could have just done with the formalities, but he didn't.

His actions are highly ironic. In trying to legitimise suppression of the students by having a vote first, he did so by a method that was unlawful by Party rules. I guess this is one further reason why the CCP is still unwilling to talk about the truth of what happened, because it would require admitting that Deng - one of the pillars of the modern Party - acted in a way that contravened the Party's rules. Admitting a much larger death toll and deliberate murder would be bad enough, but holding a palace coup to do it would be even worse.

because if the Commanders did that they would have forfeited their lives and possibly the lives of their families

I'm quite willing to believe what I read because much of the general public (at least in the main cities) seemed to be behind the students. Ordinary Beijing residents were on the streets with them, albeit they may have been some of the first to leave so were less likely to be caught up in the killings. Sometimes soldiers can be murderous killing robots, but other times they can have consciences - see the Romanian Revolution and how quickly sections of the military turned against Ceaușescu.

In this case parts of the PLA weren't even trying to oust the government, they were just refusing to use deadly force. Perhaps I could have been clearer. I haven't read anything to say the PLA in Beijing mutined, rather that they came up with excuses to not go in guns blazing. I've tweaked my previous post accordingly.

The suppression of the students wasn't popular at the time, and the CCP didn't try to draw attention to it. Rather than conduct a Mao-style purge, the Party did its best to forget about the event, focusing instead on economic growth. The deaths were downplayed and bar the student leaders, most people were able to get on with their lives. Zhao Ziyang was not put on trial - the Party leadership didn't dare - and was kept at home under "house arrest" instead. Wen Jiabao was able to become Prime Minister. So it's not surprising that disobedient military leaders weren't executed, because doing so would have reopened wounds that hadn't even begun to heal. They might have even been allowed to retire with their pensions.

So if you have a reputable, reliable, and verifiable source for your claims I suggest that you share it. I am always happy to learn something new.

Sure. Try The Tiananmen Papers, edited by Andrew Nathan and Perry Link, as well as Zhao Ziyang's memoirs Prisoner of the State.

 

[Larry_L]

Is it just Huwaui? I have seen reports that some security cameras have a back door, and are available for spying. This allegation names two of these companies, and lists the number of networks installed in various countries.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1663258508853166081

Apparently the Ukrainian MOD know of the security issue with online cameras. The are asking people to turn them off.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1663901610978754571

 

[KRAKATOA]

Yes. Even the airfryers.

Chinese Air Fryers May Be Spying on Consumers, Which? Warns

A new Which? report outlines serious privacy concerns with smart device products including air fryers

www.infosecurity-magazine.com