Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates 2.0

spoz

spoz

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
This subject was beaten to death in the RAN Discussion mark 1 thread; in particular that Tac Talks article was discussed. One of the reaons the mods closed down that thread and locked the RAN discussion for a week or so was because people would not let go of discussing fantantasy ideas for the Arafuras. While that article was written by somebody in the Service, he is a junior officer and at that level free thinking is encouraged even though it might have no relationship to actual policy. It is called staff development.

The potential and indeed the intent to operate UAVs from Arafuras has also been discussed in detail. They will operate whatever is chosen; that the final decision is not yet made has also been public knowledge for some considerable time.

To avoid having this thread locked, could we possibly NOT discuss missiles on Arafuras?
 
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ngatimozart

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Anyone who wishes to test the Moderators patience WRT RAN fantasy fleets feel free to do so. The response will be swift and without warning because we have zero tolerance for it. That's why the first RAN thread was shut down - people weren't taking the hint. We'll be quite happy to shut this one down and put offenders on holiday. This is your one and only warning.
 
alexsa

alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
OldTex said:
The use of an existing supported gun system makes a lot of sense as that avoids the possibility of the new Arafura class entry into service being delayed (with the follow-on impact of having to keep the Fremantle class in service longer than absolutely necessary). The obvious choices for the replacement gun system would be the BAE 40mm (Mk4) and the BAE 57mm (Mk3/Mk110). Both are non-penetrating mounts (as was the Leonardo gun) and carry 100 (or more rounds) on the gun as opposed to the approximately 80 on the Leonardo Marlin 40mm. Whether one of these options are eventually fitted to the Arafura class will depend on:

1. Technical certification of the gun system;
2. Resolving the EO storage;
3. Integration of the gun system into the 9LV CMS, and
4. Resolving any space and weight issues arising from the use of a different gun system.
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I think you mean ... with the follow-on impact of having to keep the Armidale class in service longer than absolutely necessary

All the Fremantle class are gone except Gladstone which is a museum ship
Museum Ship HMAS Gladstone II - Gladstone Maritime Museum
 
D

ddxx

Well-Known Member
With six Evolved Cape Class entering the fleet, are these expected to leave RAN service once all Arafura Class are delivered?

I was wondering if it would then make sense for all patrol boat operations to eventually be the domain of the ABF? With the RAN’s more capable Arafura’s acting in a supporting role when situations require?
 
B

Bob53

Well-Known Member
alexsa said:
I think you mean ... with the follow-on impact of having to keep the Armidale class in service longer than absolutely necessary

All the Fremantle class are gone except Gladstone which is a museum ship
Museum Ship HMAS Gladstone II - Gladstone Maritime Museum
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One of my young blokes works for Griffith engineering maintaining Armidale’s and he said they are cooked. His words … a lot of the nuts and bolts have been removed and reinstalled so many times the aluminium they screw into is so worn out a lot of items are barely held in place.
The Arafuras can’t come fast enough.
 
V

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Bob53 said:
One of my young blokes works for Griffith engineering maintaining Armidale’s and he said they are cooked. His words … a lot of the nuts and bolts have been removed and reinstalled so many times the aluminium they screw into is so worn out a lot of items are barely held in place.
The Arafuras can’t come fast enough.
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I couldn't possibly comment. Don't get me wrong, I want to but can't. Can't comment on the capes either, but if I could I would be saying the same things about them as I would about the Armidales.
 
D

ddxx

Well-Known Member
Volkodav said:
I couldn't possibly comment. Don't get me wrong, I want to but can't. Can't comment on the capes either, but if I could I would be saying the same things about them as I would about the Armidales.
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Well that’s certainly a bit depressing to hear.

I guess it all comes down to the operational environment for Aus vessels doing patrol activities? Too much variation in conditions for a small PB to be asked to accomplish all potential tasks?
 
M

Meriv90

Active Member
Mods I hope this short exchange isnt OT, if yes I will move to Propulsion.

I'm a complete ignorant, and i could be writing an idiocy but I wonder if in the future thanks to full electric engines/batteries we could lower the maintenance cost and the energy consumption allowing it to be affordable. A ship like the Sparviero/Nibbio is a wet dream for archipelago countries like Greece/Philippines or Indonesia.
 
R

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
Meriv90 said:
Mods I hope this short exchange isnt OT, if yes I will move to Propulsion.

I'm a complete ignorant, and i could be writing an idiocy but I wonder if in the future thanks to full electric engines/batteries we could lower the maintenance cost and the energy consumption allowing it to be affordable. A ship like the Sparviero/Nibbio is a wet dream for archipelago countries like Greece/Philippines or Indonesia.
Click to expand...
I have started a thread for Hydrofoils probably a good idea to move any discussion there, the Mods get very twitchy when this thread goes OT.
 
ngatimozart

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Meriv90 said:
Mods I hope this short exchange isnt OT, if yes I will move to Propulsion.

I'm a complete ignorant, and i could be writing an idiocy but I wonder if in the future thanks to full electric engines/batteries we could lower the maintenance cost and the energy consumption allowing it to be affordable. A ship like the Sparviero/Nibbio is a wet dream for archipelago countries like Greece/Philippines or Indonesia.
Click to expand...
You could start a discussion in the propulsion thread regarding all electric drive powered by renewable energy. It's a conversation that needs to be had. I have my doubts about the viability of it in combat capable ships, using present battery and generation technology.
 
S

Stampede

Well-Known Member
ddxx said:
With six Evolved Cape Class entering the fleet, are these expected to leave RAN service once all Arafura Class are delivered?

I was wondering if it would then make sense for all patrol boat operations to eventually be the domain of the ABF? With the RAN’s more capable Arafura’s acting in a supporting role when situations require?
Click to expand...
Good question currently without an answer.

What we do know is the Cape class is young in life.
The first only entered service some eight years ago and we will have a total of 16 boats in service by about 2023 / 4
Regardless of which government department they sail with, all should still be in service when the last of the 12 Arafura's enter service by around 2030.
The younger enhanced Cape Class vessels should be sailing into the 2040's.

As we move to the 2030's will we get additional OPV's or Capes sized vessels to replace the retiring Border force vessels?
Decisions for another time

As to who will have ownership of what is guess work.

Which ever way it goes, the commonwealth has a much greater constabulary maritime response both in quality and quantity compared to the past.

Regards S
 
R

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
Todjaeger

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
ddxx said:
With six Evolved Cape Class entering the fleet, are these expected to leave RAN service once all Arafura Class are delivered?

I was wondering if it would then make sense for all patrol boat operations to eventually be the domain of the ABF? With the RAN’s more capable Arafura’s acting in a supporting role when situations require?
Click to expand...
IIRC the ACPB's were supposed to be designed for a ~15 year service life whilst also meeting the range, mission length and sea keeping requirements specified in the contract. Given that the Cape-class patrol boats seem to be somewhat improved versions of Austal's previous Bay-class and Armidale-class (itself an enlarged and improved version of the previous) patrol boats and with the Bay-class also having entered service starting in 1999 with a plan to be replaced starting in 2010... I would not be at all surprised if the Cape-class is/was really only designed and fabricated for 15 years of service.
If that notion of mine is correct, that I would expect that even new "Evolved" Cape-class patrol boats would need to start being decommissioned within a few years of the last Arafura-class OPV entering service in 2030. The last Cape-class patrol boat ordered for the RAN should be delivered in mid-2023, and it might see RAN service until ~2038.

As for the whole patrol boat question, the answers to that really depend on what gov't decides should be policy, as that will then inform and dictate what the required capabilities are for patrol boats, be they in RAN or ABF service. Looking back, the Fremantle-class patrol boats which preceded the ACPB's saw ~30 years of service with the RAN, and whilst smaller vessels, they were also capable of greater combat capability. In RAN service they were fitted with an Australian version of the WWII-era Bofors 40 mm gun and mounting, but the gun mounting location was designed to fit a 76mm gun mounting. If the main service objective is to be largely constab work, then I would rather leave patrol boats with the ABF, OTOH though, if patrol boats might be tasked with naval roles like ASuW, ASW or MCM, then keep them in the RAN.
 
S

seaspear

Well-Known Member
In regard to the patrol boats Aluminium was chosen for their construction there have been pros and cons of this a pro being lighter and contributing to fuel-saving even after materials were added to address fire safety concerns
But surprisingly aluminum of a poor quality sourced from Wuhan in China was used and has set back the building program of the Evolved Cape class ships. would the use of been considered as per the Frigates

Australian made steel for Australian frigates | Defence Ministers

Joint media releaseThe Hon Melissa Price MP, Minister for Defence Industry The Government’s Hunter Class Frigate Program continues to deliver opportunities for Australian workers with the signing of a steel contract worth around $2.5 million.Australian company BlueScope Steel AIS has signed a...
www.minister.defence.gov.au www.minister.defence.gov.au
I would ask should patrol vessels be made of steel to better survive shouldering
www.forbes.com

Huge New Chinese Ships Are Made For Ramming

Shouldering is about to become a favorite tactic of Chinese forces as they escalate their efforts to force the U.S. and allied fleets out of the disputed waters of the East and South China Seas.
www.forbes.com www.forbes.com
 
alexsa

alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
seaspear said:
In regard to the patrol boats Aluminium was chosen for their construction there have been pros and cons of this a pro being lighter and contributing to fuel-saving even after materials were added to address fire safety concerns
But surprisingly aluminum of a poor quality sourced from Wuhan in China was used and has set back the building program of the Evolved Cape class ships. would the use of been considered as per the Frigates

Australian made steel for Australian frigates | Defence Ministers

Joint media releaseThe Hon Melissa Price MP, Minister for Defence Industry The Government’s Hunter Class Frigate Program continues to deliver opportunities for Australian workers with the signing of a steel contract worth around $2.5 million.Australian company BlueScope Steel AIS has signed a...
www.minister.defence.gov.au www.minister.defence.gov.au
I would ask should patrol vessels be made of steel to better survive shouldering
www.forbes.com

Huge New Chinese Ships Are Made For Ramming

Shouldering is about to become a favorite tactic of Chinese forces as they escalate their efforts to force the U.S. and allied fleets out of the disputed waters of the East and South China Seas.
www.forbes.com www.forbes.com
Click to expand...
To address some safety concerns ….. the alloy hull and internal structure of the Armadale’s would still not comply with the SOLAS structural fire protection without significant additional weight being added. The Cape Class ‘just’ make it but this is based on ‘equivalent’ measures.

As you noted, aluminium has some shortcomings as it is more expensive than mild steel and loses structural integrity at a much lower temperature than steel. It also has a lower elastic limit and is prone to cracking meaning additional material is required for similar strength in high load areas. The boats are not particularly ‘fast’ at 25 knots but light weight construction has been used to get that speed and keep the price down. That is the basic advantage of Alluminium.

The Capes are a stop gap for Navy. The fact that the Guardian Class is using a steel hull is telling as an indicator in regards to defence’s view on alloy hulls. The Guardian Class are intended for a long life.
 
D

ddxx

Well-Known Member
Not specifically related to the RAN, but more in regards to Australian shipbuilding, I noticed an interesting quote in a piece sponsored by Babcock:

With a low cost, unique modular design and open architecture combat system, the Arrowhead 140 has had significant interest from navies across the world, with five live campaigns currently underway. “This provides a great opportunity for Babcock in Australia to support the local region” says Davis. “It would be great to see Australia become a regional hub for building, fitting out or supporting Arrowhead 140 and given the level of interest generated in the region, that is certainly a possibility worth exploring.” (Andy Davis, Babcock’s Managing Director - Defence)

Babcock Australasia delivering genuine maritime sovereign capability
 
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