Afghanistan War

Ananda

The Bunker Group
@anan what me, or @ngatimozart or @Preceptor ask is your sources that claim Pakistan Army put troops in Afghanistan. You claim 20,000 embedded advisors in the ground, so far no solid proof on that. Your sources only talk Pakistan Intelligence give active support to Taliban insurgencies. Well it's already well known.

However it's big difference with your claim that Pakistan Army put troops in Afghanistan ground, as active combattant. If there's proof on that, then yes it's constitute as Invasion. However if they are only supporting Taliban (as this thread already discussed), then it's not invasion.

Sources from ANDSF as you have claim, will also need to be shown the proof on that. Just as Ukraine claim that Russian regular fighting in Donbass. I'm sorry so far the sources you put doesn't shown proof to back up your claim that Pakistan send their own troops to invade Afghanistan. Please make a difference sending their own troops and actively supporting Taliban.
 
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OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
…Your sources only talk Pakistan Intelligence give active support to Taliban insurgencies. Well it's already well known.

However it's big difference with your claim that Pakistan Army put troops in Afghanistan ground, as active combattant. If there's proof on that, then yes it's constitute as Invasion. However if they are only supporting Taliban (as this thread already discussed), then it's not invasion.
Everyone in this thread agrees that the Pakistan’s ISI have provided sanctuary and technical assistance to the Taliban — there is no disagreement on that.

The issue — a claim made that more than a division worth of Pakistani troops are invading Afghanistan — this sort of gossip like talk (or civilian) reasoning is pure rubbish for a military interest forum — a Pakistani division has so many vehicles that American space based assets will detect, by licence plate, road movement on that scale. American fighters, B52s and UAVs are flying through Pakistani airspace and have provided over watch until the end of the evacuation — a Pakistani division crossing the boarder will not be unnoticed. Less than a month later, that hope of resistance seems fading as the Taliban fight their way to district centres that in the Panjshir province.

If anan continues take that illogical position, after a source challenge, he will be gone in the next few posts. It’s a pity, as I have always tried to be friendly and keep him. The Moderators are not going to allow this claim to go unchallenged.
 
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Preceptor

Super Moderator
Staff member
These would be estimates from the ANDSF. Do you trust ANDSF sources? What sources would you trus

Then US Joint Chief of Staff General Mike Mullen said under oath before Congress that the Haqqani Network is a wing of the Pakistani Army Inter Services Intelligence Directorate. The Haqqani Network is also sometimes referred to as the Miramshah Shura. The Miramshah Shura is the militarily most capable of the three major Taliban military commands--the other two being the Quetta Shura Taliban and Peshawar Shura Taliban. There are many smaller Taliban military commands too.


Preceptor, please read the writings and watch the videos of Lt. General H.R. McMaster, Lara Logan, Chris Alexander. If after viewing and reading this content, you still have questions; please ask.

Ananda, many of my sources are ANDSF and GIRoA. I am trying to persuade ANDSF generals and officers to conduct open source interviews. When they do, I will try to remember to let you know. But remember that the vast majority of the Afghan press and public believes that this is the case. So much so, that if you were to tell them that some non Afghans don't believe them . . . they would be stunned in disbelief.

Afghan MoD, their spokeman, 215th ANA Corps, Lt Gen Sami Sadat have provided a lot of public source evidence. Including in their own twitter accounts. If you don't trust Afghan MoD and the ANDSF, you have a right to your own perspectives.

Preceptor, the 20,000 estimate comes from ANDSF sources and my best estimates. Some might make the case that the actual number is closer to 15,000. Did you watch Gen McMaster? What do you consider the Miramshah Shura, Lashkar e Taiba, Lashkar e Jhanvi to be?

"no confirmation or statement from the US, Afghan, or the UN/other governments that Pakistan did indeed have troops in Afghanistan engaged in hostilities vs. the Afghan government." I am confused. There are many statements from GIRoA and Afghan MoD to this effect. Why don't you believe GIRoA or the ANDSF?
At present, you have stated that sources and statements were from the ANDSF, the GIRoA , and the Afghan MoD. If this is so, then post those sources rather than stating that is where you got your information from. Otherwise, it's just your unsubstantiated word about claims and allegations you've made, and that isn't sufficient.

Also the point Ananda made is very accurate. It is already understood that the ISI has supported Taliban forces to one degree or another, but providing support to an insurgency is very different from actively deploying troops that are engaging in combat. During the Cold War the US CIA ran Operation Cyclone to funnel resources to Afghan insurgents fighting Soviet troops and the Soviet-backed Afghan government from 1979 until 1989, but that isn't same as claiming that the US had troops in Afghanistan directly fighting Soviet or Afghan government troops.

If you have statements from the Afghan government or MoD, then provide them within 24 hours (by 05:00 GMT 6 September 2021) otherwise retract the claims made. This is non-negotiable.

-Preceptor
 

anan

Member
@anan what me, or @ngatimozart or @Preceptor ask is your sources that claim Pakistan Army put troops in Afghanistan. You claim 20,000 embedded advisors in the ground, so far no solid proof on that. Your sources only talk Pakistan Intelligence give active support to Taliban insurgencies. Well it's already well known.

However it's big difference with your claim that Pakistan Army put troops in Afghanistan ground, as active combattan. If there's proof on that, then yes it's constitute as Invasion. However if they are only supporting Taliban (as this thread already discussed), then it's not invasion.

Sources from ANDSF as you have claim, will also need to be shown the proof on that. Just as Ukraine claim that Russian regular fighting in Donbass. I'm sorry so far the sources you put doesn't shown proof to back up your claim that Pakistan send their own troops to invade Afghanistan. Please make a difference sending their own troops and actively supporting Taliban.
My understanding is that these embedded advisors were technically "retired" Pakistani Army soldiers dressed as Taliban. They are a black operation. The actual number is classified and not known. Each ANA Corps had an estimate of who was fighting them. These estimates are combined into the number of 15,000 to 20,000. My estimate is 20,000. Others estimate 15,000. Maybe in the future I can try to break down the detailed OOB of the Taliban / Pak Army offensive.

Mod Edit: There is a huge difference between uniformed regulars of an army invading a country, versus the ISI, supporting and arming the Taliban. Argumentative text deleted, for failure to provide evidence.
- OPSSG
 
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anan

Member
Chris Alexander has documented a lot of the involvment of the Pakistani Army over some time. You can look back at the last thousand or so of his tweets:

Mod Edit: Text deleted, as this is not evidence
- OPSSG

Is this sufficient evidence?
 
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Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Chris Alexander has documented a lot of the involvment of the Pakistani Army over some time. You can look back at the last thousand or so of his tweets:

Pakistan’s invasion of Afghanistan today deserves the same response as the disastrous Soviet invasion of 1979: armed resistance, international condemnation & sweeping sanctions. #SanctionPakistan


Is this sufficient evidence?
A claim by a single politician is certainly not enough evidence by itself. Official statements from the ANA, or US governemnt sources would work. Actual documents or footage would work. First hand accounts would work. Just to be clear the claims that we are asking proof of is the presence of 15 or 20 thousand Pakistani Army personnel inside Aghanistan. You changed your claim in course of this discussion from claiming they are active personnel to them being retired service members dressed as the Taliban. Do you have specific evidence of this? Again we're not talking about general evidence that the ISI supports the Taliban but the specific claim about either current or former Pakistani armed forces members in the numbers you claim acting as advisers in Taliban formations.
 

anan

Member
A claim by a single politician is certainly not enough evidence by itself. Official statements from the ANA, or US governemnt sources would work. Actual documents or footage would work. First hand accounts would work. Just to be clear the claims that we are asking proof of is the presence of 15 or 20 thousand Pakistani Army personnel inside Aghanistan. You changed your claim in course of this discussion from claiming they are active personnel to them being retired service members dressed as the Taliban. Do you have specific evidence of this? Again we're not talking about general evidence that the ISI supports the Taliban but the specific claim about either current or former Pakistani armed forces members in the numbers you claim acting as advisers in Taliban formations.
This is my best estimate. I don't know for certain. It is a classified operation. Would it be useful to ask people such as HR McMaster, Lora Logan, Amrullah Saleh, Chris Alexander (he is one of the greatest living experts on Afghanistan who is not Afghan), Massoud for their estimates?

Is your only disagreement over the estimate of 15,000 to 20,000 provided? For clarification, would you concede that there is no other disagreement?

Would all of you agree that many (such as Bruce Riedel cited above) say that there were large numbers of embedded Pakistani Army advisors within the Taliban who fought the ANDSF? The following is a direct quote from his recent article: "Pakistani advisers accompanied the Taliban on missions inside Afghanistan."

Are the Twitter feeds (granted many thousands of tweets to go through) from Afghan MoD and Amrullah Saleh are sufficient evidence that they were asserting that many Pakistanis were fighting alongside the Taliban and being killed by the ANDSF?


[IMAGE OF DEAD BODIES that does not prove Pakistan’s involvement deleted at request of a member]
The ANA has posted many pictures of Punjabi Pakistanis who have died in combat. Such as this picture above. Or the following from the ANDSF fighting in Panjir:
Chris Alexander has repeatedly documented the vast numbers of Pakistani soldiers who have died fighting against the ANDSF.
Are you asserting that most of these could be private Pakistani citizens versus retired Pakistani Army or de facto Pakistani Army? If this is your assertion, how could the ANDSF (including the ones who are still fighting the Taliban now) and GIRoA prove their connection to the Pakistani Army to you?

For clarification, would you concede that groups such as the Miramshah Shura (Haqqani Network), LeT, LeJ, Al Qaeda in the Indian Peninsula, are regarded by many Afghan and non Afghans as veritable arms of the Pakistani Army?

US Joint Chiefs of Staff Mike Mullen in 2011 in sworn testimony before the US congress described the Haqqani Network as a "veritable arm" of the Pakistani Army ISI Directorate. What is the difference between being a veritable arm of the Pakistani Army and the Pakistani Army in your opinion? [I am genuinely trying to understand your point of view and confused.]

Lt. Gen McMaster describes the role of the Pakistani Army in detail in many recent interviews. He warns against trying to differentiate between the various different militias and military groups (by which he presumably means Daesh, LeT, LeJ, Miramshah Shura, QST, Peshawar Shura, and the various veritable wings of the Pakistani Army) because they are extremely intermixed. What additional information would you like?
 
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ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Chris Alexander has documented a lot of the involvment of the Pakistani Army over some time. You can look back at the last thousand or so of his tweets:

Pakistan’s invasion of Afghanistan today deserves the same response as the disastrous Soviet invasion of 1979: armed resistance, international condemnation & sweeping sanctions. #SanctionPakistan


Is this sufficient evidence?
We have a standard of credibility and reputation for our sources that is similar to that of a reputable university. This is because we require accurate information that can be checked by anyone on the forum and is not misinformation or propaganda. We police these standards strictly, regardless of who people are, and where they come from. These requirements are non negotiable.
 
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anan

Member
Mod Edit: Argumentative text deleted, for failure to provide evidence. There are more Pashtuns living in Pakistan than any other country. Given that the Taliban recruit from Pakistani madrasahs and the ISI funds them, it is not a surprise to find that Pashtuns have logistics support in Pakistan and are crossing the border in support of the Taliban. However, this is not proof that the Pakistani Army is SENDING a division or more of troops from their barracks to fight the ANDSF.

Would you also concede that many Pakistanis have fought with the ANDSF and that the ANDSF claims they are Pakistani Army?

Mod Edit: Text deleted, as it is an assertion by a source or an opinion, stripped of context to present a point of view.

Please also respond to Lt. Gen McMaster's assertions point by point. You happen to disagree with him. There is nothing wrong with that.

This is an official statement from the Afghan Ministry of Foreign Affairs in 2014 Pakistan and Iran's Role in the Instability of Afghanistan | TOLOnews:
  • "MoFA Spokesman Ahmad Shekib Mustaghna said. "Pakistan has continued supporting the Taliban and the presence of the Taliban and their Pakistani advisors has increased in Afghanistan.""
You have a right to disagree with what the GIRoA and ANDSF believe.

Please read the statements of former ANA Chief of Staff Bismullah and former ANA Chief of Staff Sher Mohammed Karimi.

ANA Chief of Staff Sher Mohammed Karimi openly said on record in 2013:

Pakistan 'could end Afghan conflict'
The head of the Afghan army tells BBC HARDtalk fighting in Afghanistan could be stopped "in weeks" if Pakistan told the Taliban to end the insurgency.

Afghan army chief: 'Pakistan controls Taliban'
Fighting in Afghanistan could be stopped in weeks if Pakistan told the Taliban to end the insurgency, the head of the Afghan army tells the BBC.

It is widely believed among the ANDSF that the Pakistani Army directly control large military wings of the Taliban through the chain of command.

Mod Edit: Text deleted. There is a huge difference between uniformed regulars of an army invading a country, versus the ISI, covertly supporting and arming the Taliban. We make no apology in enforcing standards and requiring some clarification from members, when there is doubt to maintain standards.
- OPSSG
 
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Ananda

The Bunker Group
your only disagreement over the estimate of 15,000 to 20,000 provided? For clarification, would you concede that there is no other disagreement?
Anan, I believe the mods already make clear what the forum ask. Your proof from reliable sources that there's Pakistan regular troops in the Afghanistan ground. This's all the debate coming from. All the link of proof that you claim basically many in this Forum already know. They don't put any proof that there're Pakistan regular troops in Afghanistan, as you claim.

Your claim as Pakistan invasion based on your perception that Pakistan Army send their regular troops to boost Taliban. Again it's totally different on Pakistan Army or their Intelligence using Taliban as proxy's.

Where's undeniable proof there're Pakistan Troops fighting and died alongside Taliban ? Where's the proof there're Pakistan regulars being send across the border. All of this just accusations but without undeniable proof.

15-20 thousands Pakistan regulars can't be hide. Especially from US orbital and Aerial assets (as OPSSG put). We in here already know that accusations for some time. However in DT we are not discussing allegations that are not supported by proof. Accusations by a Politician, or Afghan General/War Lord's without any strong supporting pictures, video, in this days where a simple Smart Phone can make a video on that, clearly is what can be call still unsupportive accusation.
 

anan

Member
@anan Text deleted. You are continually repeating the same arguments regardless of what other posters and the Moderators have said. You have been given directions by various Moderators. Either follow the directions or the Moderators will take action against you.
 
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OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
Please also respond to Lt. Gen McMaster's assertions point by point. You happen to disagree with him. There is nothing wrong with that.
1. There is nothing wrong with listening carefully to Petraeus’ and McMaster's points of view on Afghanistan but it is informed by American intelligence; which we know is faulty for the last 20 years — in part due to the motivated desire of both officials in Pakistan and Afghanistan to lie to the Americans. McMaster, acknowledged it was a "one-year war fought 20 times over." To be clear, the term ‘Taliban’ is NOT interchangeable with the term ‘Pakistani Army,’ no matter how much lies Afghan politicians and the ANA’s discredited generals tell. For 20 years, Afghan officials deny that they were stealing millions of dollars in American aid. Some of these discredited Afghan generals skillfully manipulate data to pretend they had an army, when in fact, they are just another tribe out to loot the treasury.
(a) Was speaking the former chief ranger trainer of Singapore who is ‘Special Forces’ or ‘SF’ trained at Fort Bragg. He explained the difference between SF and rangers — the SF advisor support model is a single ‘A’ team of 12 soldiers to support 1,000 to 5,500 militia — therefore, if anan had argued that there were 120 to 500 Pakistani soldiers in Afghanistan, supporting the Taliban, he would not be subject to a source challenge. anan cites media personalities like Lara Logan as evidence, when what she says must be taken with a pinch of salt. There is a distinction between an opinion, belief, allegation, and factual proof — in every post, anan has repeated political beliefs of his ‘qawn’ (translated as ‘his people’) without providing actual evidence — a time honoured tactic of lying or situational retelling of an opinion for outsiders.​
(b) We want to have sympathy for anan’s anxiety for the resistance but from my perspective, it is very likely that Pakistan’s intelligence services ISI, are using their proxy, with some of their networks within the Taliban to influence outcomes. I have not seen proof that Pakistani army tanks and artillery are used to attack the ANSF — and certainly not on the scale anan is suggesting. Less credible Indian sources may have unverified Afghan stories of Pakistan Army’s direct uniformed involvement (which may be untrue). Keep in mind that in 2001, it took 400 American troops, supporting the Northern Alliance to overthrow the Taliban. That’s how weak the Taliban were.​
(c) Successive U.S. officials believed they had established personal rapport with their various Pakistani counterparts and found them reasonable, charming, and accommodating. Under their spell, U.S. officials came to believe that it was only the strength of Pakistan’s army which prevented chaos and disorder. The limited human intelligence gathered is a reflection on the passing American interest on the tribes of Afghanistan and its greater context in the AfPak threatre.​
(d) It is not just the Afghan officials that are lying to the Americans — for 20 years, Pakistani officials have masterfully execute a denial and deception campaign that to manipulate senior U.S. defense officials, diplomats, and visiting congressional delegations. Islamabad wants to make sure that the Taliban’s actions should not give the international community, particularly the U.S., any reason to isolate them diplomatically and cripple them financially.​
(e) According to scholar Ayesha Siddiqa, Pakistan’s Army chief, Gen. Qamar Javed Bajwa, spoke about his concern that Pakistan may end up being targeted by American sanctions — this is one reason why I don’t believe that there are 15,000 to 20,000 former Pakistani military "advisors" in Afghanistan embedded within the Taliban. The rush among Pakistani officials to give the Taliban a certificate of good behavior and paint a doomsday scenario of what might happen should international engagement with Pakistan and Afghanistan not continue says less about the Taliban’s transformed character and more about Islamabad’s desire to whitewash the “military solution” the Taliban imposed.​
(f) While Pakistan did provide information to help the US take out or capture several al-Qaeda leaders in its tribal region, no major Taliban or Haqqani network leaders — whom Pakistan was using as its proxies in Afghanistan — were ever given away. The 2011 Abbottabad raid and the 2016 strike that killed Taliban Amir Mullah Akhtar Mansoor are only two exceptions of the rule — where the Americans have been consistently out played by Pakistan’s ISI’s double game — asking for American money but acting against American interests. These raids also increased both popular anger among the masses, and dissent within the Pakistani army’s own ranks — the nagging conspiratorial sentiment suggesting that the nuclear armed Pakistan Army is either weaker or more hollow than depicted.​

2. America went to Afghanistan in 2001 for a reason — to eliminate the sanctuary in which the 9/11 attacks were planned by al-Qaida during Taliban control of most of the country. They stayed 20 years to prevent al-Qaida from reestablishing such sanctuaries. If the Afghan National Army can’t win the fight again the Taliban after years of training, preparation and billions of dollars in equipment supplied, then it’s a fact that we as external observers can only watch with regret.
(a) The coming Panjshir massacre of a few resistance fighters may not end positively for Taliban — I suspect that a long civil war is about to begin; there will more small skirmishes elsewhere with time, before full scale war — this is a prediction I hope to be proved wrong on — for the sake of the Afghan people.​
(b) The closure of the American embassy in Afghanistan is also a blow to the CIA’s ability to maintain real-time situational awareness on groups like al-Qaida in Afghanistan. It's not impossible, but it's going to take significant expenditure of assets that was not necessary before. This is not a desired outcome but one Americans must accept, given President Biden’s decision.​
(c) Secretary Blinken's team also praised Doha's "indispensable support in facilitating the transit of US citizens, embassy Kabul personnel, at-risk Afghans, and other evacuees from Afghanistan through Qatar."​

3. On 9 Oct 2009, President Barack Obama met with his top generals, Cabinet officials, and his VP Biden to hash out strategy for the war in Afghanistan. Gens. Stanley McChrystal and David Petraeus, along with much of the military brass, were pushing for a troop increase of 40,000 to 85,000 in Afghanistan. Doing so would allow for a counterinsurgency strategy, they claimed, and would give the Americans time to recruit and train a larger Afghan national army.

(a) Biden said to McChrystal. “And that our success relies upon having a reliable, a strong partner in governance to make this work?” Petraeus, when he spoke, acknowledged what had become obvious. “I understand the government is a criminal syndicate,” he said.​
(b) Biden cut in: “If the government’s a criminal syndicate a year from now, how will troops make a difference?” he asked. Biden was getting at something fundamental: Did anybody believe what the generals were proposing was actually possible?​
(c) Richard Holbrooke, special envoy for Afghanistan and Pakistan, chimed in with a reality that was largely kept from the U.S. public. “Our presence is the corrupting force,” Holbrooke said. Woodward then paraphrased his explanation: “All the contractors for development projects pay the Taliban for protection and use of roads, so American and coalition dollars help finance the Taliban. And with more development, higher traffic on roads, and more troops, the Taliban would make more money.”​
(d) Biden’s summation, said Woodward, returned to the theme that the project was doomed due to the failure to have built a real Afghan government.​

4. India’s Republic TV runs a video game ARMA-3 shown as Pakistan striking Panjshir. The fake news also running in Times Now channels! anan's false claim is that there are between 15,000 to 20,000 former Pakistani military "advisors" embedded with the Taliban. This is either a traditional Afghan political lie repeated many times (to outsiders) or a mistaken belief not backed by (i) reputable news reports, ground truth, or (ii) military logic.

5. There is an ideal of the ratio of ‘Special Forces’ or ‘SF’ to a rebel group that is well established.

6. The difference with the Americans compared to Israel or Singapore, is the multilingual ability of users of the intelligence — Singapore’s Prime Minister, CDF, Chief of Army all speak Bahasa, as a 3rd or 4th language — they understand not only the info but also the cultural context.
 
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Hone C

Active Member
Looks like it's entering the end game for the Panjshir resistance. On 31st Aug the Taliban launched a multi pronged attack against the valley, assaulting the Khawak Pass, the southern approach at Gulbahar, and Anjuman in the north.

Despite initial claims of victory early Taliban attacks were repulsed with heavy casualties.


Over the last couple of days the Taliban have managed to leverage their greater numbers and firepower to push into the Panjshir through the southern pass and take Ababa, Shotul, Rukha, and Bazarak districts. Situation is still fluid, with lots of disinformation, but doesn't look good for anti-Taliban forces, with the Taliban closing in on the capital, Bazarak.

 

Ananda

The Bunker Group

More on Taliban push in Panjshir. I put the link from DW, at least it's less emotional talk then US and UK Network (it's German afterall :)). However I put this as it's also talk on Taliban overture to German for Diplomatic relatioship.

Taliban already push diplomatic effort to China, however seems they are trying to get some connection to EU (and what better choice to do that then reaching out to German first). How this going to give leverage to German (thus EU) for softening Taliban agenda, will be interesting to seen.
 

Big_Zucchini

Well-Known Member
Well at least now we can try and get something positive out of this whole thing.
I don't think anyone was entirely sure Afghanistan would hold on its own.
Perhaps the Taliban, given their leadership role, will somehow normalize (as happens to most opposition parties once they become rulers) to close to the legitimate government.
Maybe not so harsh restrictions on rights as they first advertised, and even allow western nations to invest in the country.
And who knows? Maybe there will be an economical war between China and the west in Afghanistan.

Otherwise it's hard to believe the US just unilaterally withdrew without some hidden benefit other than just cutting losses.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Well at least now we can try and get something positive out of this whole thing.
I don't think anyone was entirely sure Afghanistan would hold on its own.
Perhaps the Taliban, given their leadership role, will somehow normalize (as happens to most opposition parties once they become rulers) to close to the legitimate government.
Maybe not so harsh restrictions on rights as they first advertised, and even allow western nations to invest in the country.
And who knows? Maybe there will be an economical war between China and the west in Afghanistan.

Otherwise it's hard to believe the US just unilaterally withdrew without some hidden benefit other than just cutting losses.
Not so hard given US pollie stupidity during the last 10 years (perhaps longer). The issue of forever wars was and still is a huge factor wrt the US electorate.
 

Terran

Well-Known Member
At last reporting there are still some ~100-200 US Citizens, US associated Afghan refugees & Journalist. Taliban Stop Planes of Evacuees from Leaving but Unclear Why
The move to have abandoned Bagram AFB in favor of the inadequate Kabul IAP is proof enough that political expediency was placed over practical benefit. Both facilities would have allowed better security and efficient evacuation if the intention was still as such.
Opinion I have serious doubts that the “New Taliban” is any more a reform than “New Coke” was back in the day. Sure they Might have a faction who will go for a softened approach, but that doesn’t mean much. The Taliban is a bit like the Commission was to the Mafia. It’s a group of organizations. Some of those “Godfathers” have very strong ties to AQ or IS.
At least one documented AQ figure has made a public appearance with Taliban PSD indicating honored guest status.
Additionally they have already started pumping the propaganda, painting OBL as a Martyr, enshrining suicide attacks and blaming the US for 9/11. Well denying any Afghan connections to the attacks.
No surprise really as this has been consistent behavior for the last 20 years.
The Taliban will happily take money from west or east to fund themselves but any security promises should be considered not worth the paper it’s printed on. The Taliban has made open statements contradicting claims in regards to agreements and assurances. Often with the other parties looking like buffoons who are voicing more wishful thinking than actual reality. They don’t make compromises the rest of the world does. Remember officially the Taliban is listed as a Terrorist organization in a number of countries. The “Afghan” Taliban is not yet the Haqqani network and Pakistani Taliban are and both are linked to the Afghan Taliban.
Contrary to State Department claim Department Press Briefing - August 27, 2021 - United States Department of State.
Apparently the Defense department knew something about it.
So either the DOD and DOS had a 180% different view on the intel or State was on its own program.
TTP

Basically Administration after Administration in the west often make the Excuses, Disconnect the dots, deny and ignore what they don’t want to see when it comes to the Taliban AQ and IS. Defense was ignored and told to play ball. State was given full reign with the marching orders to make a devils bargain facts be damned.
Until this US citizens are out of Taliban control they IMO are hostages. Until the Terps and VOA Journalists are out of country they are potential political prisoners.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
Looks like it's entering the end game for the Panjshir resistance. On 31st Aug the Taliban launched a multi pronged attack against the valley, assaulting the Khawak Pass, the southern approach at Gulbahar, and Anjuman in the north.

Despite initial claims of victory early Taliban attacks were repulsed with heavy casualties.


Over the last couple of days the Taliban have managed to leverage their greater numbers and firepower to push into the Panjshir through the southern pass and take Ababa, Shotul, Rukha, and Bazarak districts. Situation is still fluid, with lots of disinformation, but doesn't look good for anti-Taliban forces, with the Taliban closing in on the capital, Bazarak.

It seems that Talibanana's victory is almost a fact.
If a combined force of complete and heavily armed NATO-troops and ANA-units can not defeat them, what can a small group of exhausted soldiers do against the Talibs which has now the possession of advanced weaponsystems and more firepower than ever?
 

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
Meeting with Pakistan's ISI Chief

1. Given that the Taliban has only managed to invite six countries (namely, Turkey, China, Russia, Iran, Pakistan, Qatar) to attend the ceremony for the announcement of the "formal" government — it clearly has a problem with recognition.

2. The young age of the Afghan population is both its strength and weakness. With one of the youngest populations in the world—more than 40% of Afghan population is aged 14 or younger— NATO’s past efforts in funding and developing a quality education system served as a long-term investment in human capital for Afghan economy, until their departure in 2021. Not sure how much priority the Taliban will place on education, going forward.

3. The weak Panjshir resistance seen is a non-issue in the longer run. Let me identify three key issues that needs to be addressed and these are much more crucial to the people of Afghanistan than the Panjshir resistance. The British Foreign Secretary visited the Afghanistan-Pakistan border at Torkham, a key crossing point, to see for himself the situation on the ground and also met members of the team supporting the current crisis response, according to the British High Commission — this is a wonderful opportunity for rent-seeking by Pakistan — in return for facilitating British linked Afghans seeking to depart by the land border for the UK.

Q1: What is the biggest problem that the Taliban face?

Ans: It must form an unified government (from its factions) that is not over centralised otherwise the system can breakdown and they start fighting each other, rather than fight ISK (or some of these factions may have to consider joining ISK, if the power sharing is seen as inequitable). To consolidate Taliban rule, their priorities include:
(a) meeting with Pakistan's ISI Chief, Lt Gen. Faiz Hameed, in Kabul on government formation; and Pakistan's Chief of Army Staff Gen Qamar Javed Bajwa told British Foreign Secretary Dominic Raab that Islamabad will "assist" the Taliban to form an inclusive administration in neighbouring Afghanistan. Gen Bajwa, in his meeting with Raab in Islamabad, discussed issues of mutual interest, regional security and the current situation in Afghanistan;​
(b) separated classes at the university, as the Taliban announced that girls and boys will no longer be able to study together in universities; and​
(c) they have started destroying music instruments in Kabul.

Q2: What is the second biggest problem of the Taliban?

Ans: It’s treasury is empty — which means no pay for civil servants, and doctors. In the past, private security contractors who were paid to protect US DOD and USAID assets diverted a substantial share of their contract funds to insurgents to buy their cooperation—making insurgents in effect unofficial subcontractors to U.S. government. With the total departure of the US presence, there is no money paid to insurgent fighters, and no money to buy basic supplies for hospitals, and more crime. Food in Afghanistan could run out this month, a senior U.N. official warned, threatening to add a hunger crisis to the challenges facing the country's new Taliban rulers. Fighting the former Afghan government is fun compared to ruling over the dysfunctional state called Afghanistan.

Q3: What is the third biggest problem?

Ans: Finding a way for aid to flow again, no matter how little. No matter what Indians or Americans say about the UN, but various UN agencies are poised to take centre stage in the international response to Afghanistan’s looming humanitarian crisis. It must take center stage; as no other organisation will do so. The urgency to deliver aid to the Afghans who are internally displaced is building as external sanctions set in. Next week’s UN aid conference is critical. To that end, 4 Americans had left Afghanistan with Taliban knowledge, in the first departures arranged by Washington since its chaotic military pullout.
 
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ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Agree that the big problem will be the humanitarian crisis regardless of any other problems facing Afghanistan. Getting aid in and distributed to those in need is paramount.

The next problem is the economy, so is getting the banks, shops, and markets open again to get the economy up and running again. That will help ensure that the people will have access to basic necessities. They also have clamp down on their own fighters doing standovers of merchants and others. Those kind of actions defeat the purpose.

Whilst the current political situation in Afghanistan is far from ideal, it may offer the chance for some stability and a semblance of peace in Afghanistan. That cannot be overlooked even though the Taliban in control is distasteful to many.

US organised international sanctions will be a problem for Afghanistan. No doubt the US will more than double down on them now in fits of anger and revenge because they hate losing and are poor losers. History has shown this because they have demonised Cuba since 1959 and Vietnam for 40 odd years, until recently. There has to be a clear break in the cycle otherwise the US Is just continuing the cycle of hatred and creation of enemies. It no longer can afford two wars at the same time and the PRC will definitely stir up and support insurrectionists against the US and its partners if the US continues along the same cycle.
 
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