Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

[Takao]

@Takao
Unfortunately I think Defence, being terribly comfortable with staged pictures, videos and fluff pieces in the various Army / Navy / Air force news etc, has itself to blame somewhat.

The fact that even we who are no longer in defence, yet still interested, have to trawl through Senate Estimates to get any kind of confirmation of what is “really” going on is a large part of the issue.

Defence is terrible these days at articulating (publicly) it’s reasons for certain decisions, acquisitions, how the rollouts of capability are proceeding and so on.

So all most people get to see is the rubbish in the broadsheet media and the slightly less rubbish, but still far from perfect stuff in the specialist defence media, all of who seem to be regurgitating more or less the same information, due to how little is actually getting out of Defence.

Woeful. Bad. Atrocious. Ignorant. I can keep going.

It angers me. We talk about information warfare and the purpose of war to change minds - our PR is centuries out of date. I'm not talking about responding to anti-[weapon platform of the day], our stuff should be squared away so that we never have to do that.

And everytime someone goes to make an improvement, suggest a new approach, tackle something challenging they get shut down so hard it leaves scars. But don't worry, we have a branding manual!

 

[Redlands18]

The vast majority of Australians are getting there Defence News from Newspapers, Sky News, ABC News, News.com. No wonder so many think the F-35 is crap and the Attack class project has completely fallen apart and we are about to order German built Type 212s because no one is telling them differently. PR is also about selling yourself to potential Employees, but if all they are being told is, the equipment is crap, well.

 

[ADMk2]

Woeful. Bad. Atrocious. Ignorant. I can keep going.

It angers me. We talk about information warfare and the purpose of war to change minds - our PR is centuries out of date. I'm not talking about responding to anti-[weapon platform of the day], our stuff should be squared away so that we never have to do that.

And everytime someone goes to make an improvement, suggest a new approach, tackle something challenging they get shut down so hard it leaves scars. But don't worry, we have a branding manual!

CASG should do a public briefing per week or something. Topic of the week, for example: non-classified update on Army’s plans for Counter-UAS systems or some such. Maybe a bit of Q/A with a few journos, a few publicly releasable slides and some program information, plus a bit of operational ‘user’ context so that program and operational aspects are covered. Put a transcript up post briefing so anyone who wants can go and look.

That would feed defence media a lot better, counter a lot of the rubbish pedalled by the broadsheet media and give a visible demonstration of defence’s commitment to the Australian public in spending it’s tax dollars wisely. An expanded “on the record” as it were…

Next week can be tanks, with Greg Sheridan in the front row…

 

[Boagrius]

CASG should do a public briefing per week or something. Topic of the week, for example: non-classified update on Army’s plans for Counter-UAS systems or some such. Maybe a bit of Q/A with a few journos, a few publicly releasable slides and some program information, plus a bit of operational ‘user’ context so that program and operational aspects are covered. Put a transcript up post briefing so anyone who wants can go and look.

That would feed defence media a lot better, counter a lot of the rubbish pedalled by the broadsheet media and give a visible demonstration of defence’s commitment to the Australian public in spending it’s tax dollars wisely. An expanded “on the record” as it were…

Next week can be tanks, with Greg Sheridan in the front row…

Hear hear! Transformational times for the ADF into the foreseeable future - there will be plenty to talk about.

 

[hauritz]

The vast majority of Australians are getting there Defence News from Newspapers, Sky News, ABC News, News.com. No wonder so many think the F-35 is crap and the Attack class project has completely fallen apart and we are about to order German built Type 212s because no one is telling them differently. PR is also about selling yourself to potential Employees, but if all they are being told is, the equipment is crap, well.

Unfortunately I doubt the media would be interested in becoming the PR arm for the Australian military. Why go to all that trouble when you can get more readers with click bait stories of dud subs.

 

[Goknub]

I would argue that article, while unfocused at times is addressing a real deficiency in defence. Amphibious capabilities have always ended up at the bottom of the priority list. Just look at the NSP, a single paragraph at the the bottom. Considering how often this capability has been needed over Australia's history and the impact it can have I believe it should be a much higher priority.

This is not about storming the beach with an mechanised brigade, it's having the logistical capacity to move around our region and operate at scale. There's plenty of scope between 4 small landing craft doing a PR exercise and the D-Day landings. It's a good thing this is getting some attention now, we're focused on building up for WW3 while risking our position in the region. The Chinese in particular are heavily focused on winning engagements in the grey zone and in this space logistics/amphibious assets can be more valuable than frigates and subs. If our Talisman Sabre's had all logistics come via sea/air I think the lessons we draw would have a different priority.

That being said, the ADF is pretty woeful at supporting the public's understanding of defence so it has only itself to blame when it finds itself poorly understood.

 

[Boagrius]

The thing that stands out to me about this is that the threat we face is no longer just some rag tag terrorist group, or distant regional player. The challenge ahead is potentially immense and Australians will need to know we are equipped to meet it.

 

[ADMk2]

Unfortunately I doubt the media would be interested in becoming the PR arm for the Australian military. Why go to all that trouble when you can get more readers with click bait stories of dud subs.

Hence why Defence should exploit the opportunities present in social media. Livestream the “major” briefings, subs, JSF etc. Post videos post briefing and transcripts via their own websites.

Ignore traditional media until they become interested in reporting something resembling the truth, rather than clickbait seeking “opinion” pieces masquerading as actual reporting.

Defence already has the units set up to achieve this with Defence social media group, etc.

Social media | Department of Defence

Links to Department of Defence official social media accounts.

www.defence.gov.au

 

[Gryphinator]

A monthly CASG media release invalidating or confirming certain media reports could be helpful. The DefMin is holding the cards too close to his chest IMO.

As for Amphibious forces, has there been anymore about the touted Pacific Regiment we heard of back in April? Could be a solution. Pre positioned assets, maintained in place and manned locally. Plus all the HADR goodwill that brings. They could obviously be contracted out as commercial ships when not required.

As to what they are, the STS ship I'm a fan of, for no other reason than it's potentially going to be made near me.

 

[John Newman]

Not wanting to derail the RAN Thread anymore that it already is, but I think we need a bit of a reality check.

Whilst all of us members of DT have a very keen interest in Defence, and the very ‘fine details’ too, the average punter in the street has NFI about Defence (that is No Fcukin Idea).

If you put 100 punters in a room and gave them a written Q&A session and asked them what is an LHD or DDG or ESSM or SM-2, etc, was they wouldn’t have a clue, and wouldn’t care.

The average punter in the street is only interested in: do I have a job? Do I have access to my middle class welfare? Do I have access to medical and education services? Etc, etc, etc, ......

All the boring day to day issues that concern ‘me’.

Over the decades I’ve done my own little test with people I know, ask the question, they look blankly at you, try it, ok?

Do I wish Defence and the Govt would provide regular updates on Defence projects? Yes of course I do, but I’m not going to hold my breath, we are basically a minority group, a minority group that won’t get what we want.

Guys, I’m not being negative, just realistic.

On the positive side, Defence spending is above 2% of GDP (despite covid, etc), we have a Naval Shipbuilding Plan, we have positive things happening across the whole of the ADF.

Could reporting be better? Yes, but that’s life, get used to it, or start writing letters to the Def Min on a daily basis.

Rant over!

Cheers,

 

[John Newman]

One last point before I shut up.

Many years ago my Ex (not my Ex wife, one of my Ex partners), would come home every day and bitch and moan about the $hit people and $hit management of the Hospital she worked at.

Every day, over and over, in the end I said “stop! Stop bitchin and moaning! Do something about it or shut up!”.

So she did, got the problem resolved.

I have a suggestion....

If one of the DT Mods wants to write a letter to the Def Min requesting better media coverage and reporting, I’ll happily put my name to it, we should all put our name to it too.

Sometimes the squeaky wheel gets the grease!

Cheers,

 

[Boagrius]

If you put 100 punters in a room and gave them a written Q&A session and asked them what is an LHD or DDG or ESSM or SM-2, etc, was they wouldn’t have a clue, and wouldn’t care.

The average punter in the street is only interested in: do I have a job? Do I have access to my middle class welfare? Do I have access to medical and education services? Etc, etc, etc, ......

All the boring day to day issues that concern ‘me’.

While I don't disagree per se, I think you may find the average punter sits up and takes notice if they think billions are going to waste (enter APA/Gottliebsen et al.) instead of towards something that benefits them.

Additionally, if PRC fishing fleets begin regular encroachments into our EEZ, and/or PLAN Type 003 (004/005/006...) CVBGs start sailing regularly south of Indonesia, or if (heaven forbid) things did go kinetic in the region, then I can see the average punter taking even greater interest in perceived wasteful spending as well.

 

[John Newman]

While I don't disagree per se, I think you may find the average punter sits up and takes notice if they think billions are going to waste (enter APA/Gottliebsen et al.) instead of towards something that benefits them.

Additionally, if PRC fishing fleets begin regular encroachments into our EEZ, and/or PLAN Type 003 (004/005/006...) CVBGs start sailing regularly south of Indonesia, or if (heaven forbid) things did go kinetic in the region, then I can see the average punter taking even greater interest in perceived wasteful spending as well.

Mate, no offence, but rubbish.

Go find 100 punters in the street who knows who or what APA is? Or know that Gottliebsen, a former finance writer, actually writes Defence articles in The Oz, next to no one reads The Oz anymore, do they?

Punters don’t give a crap about ‘waste’ as long as they continue to get their middle class welfare, etc, and they DO keep getting that and all they want too.

Mate, take your ‘I know about defence matters’ hat off and be an average ignorant punter, I guarantee you they don’t think like that.

Anyway, we are all entitled to our opinions, but I honestly think you are overstating what the average punter really knows or thinks about defence.

 

[Boagrius]

Mate, no offence, but rubbish.

Go find 100 punters in the street who knows who or what APA is? Or know that Gottliebsen, a former finance writer, actually writes Defence articles in The Oz, next to no one reads The Oz anymore, do they?

Punters don’t give a crap about ‘waste’ as long as they continue to get their middle class welfare, etc, and they DO keep getting that and all they want too.

Mate, take your ‘I know about defence matters’ hat off and be an average ignorant punter, I guarantee you they don’t think like that.

Anyway, we are all entitled to our opinions, but I honestly think you are overstating what the average punter really knows or thinks about defence.

None taken. All I'm ultimately saying is that the next 20 years could look a lot different to the last 20 for our national security, and in a way that actually reaches Joe Average. FWIW I hope you're right and that it stays that way. Time shall tell!

 

[t68]

Well Defence made the Sydney Nine news tonight, apparently the USN,ROKN & JMSDF arrived in Sydney today for naval ex.

They have to stay in their own bubble within the shipaccording to the news report which would pretty much suck for them as the news pointed out the local business missing out on the sailors run ashore but for the USN its the 4th of July tomorrow hopefully the RAN puts on a spread for them within the confines of Garden Island

 

[Stampede]

Gosh, that DTR article is, interesting....

Must admit, the lecturing tone about archipelago and the stupid comparison to the steppes put me right off, but I'll hit the big points.

The amphib stuff in FSP was developed as one item. The amphib force has always led the charge on joint, and the FSP team did it no differently. The concept was built by the one team who were (mostly!) within one cubicle. Two at least. The RAAF / Army / RAN / Other areas of responsibility were parcelled out, and volia. If the team was any closer there'd have been unacceptable behaviour complaints....

DTR confuses programs with fighting. The programs (the amphib = logistics ship) relate to delivering capability. They bear absolutely zero impact on the RTS or the operational side of Defence. Proof? Go find the Army CSS program...

The quickness to solutionise and then criticise LCM-8 replacement and the like further reflects a lack of knowledge of the CLC or even program management. Each of those projects has a list of needs. They were drafted/updated in a nested manner, they meet integration and joint issues. Will some of the needs be jettisoned? Possibly. It may be there is a better trade-off come tender time. But gosh - lets wait at least for the tender release....

The constant complaining about time is annoying. Does DTR honestly think if we could get 8710 Phase 2 into service in 2024 we wouldn't? We'd sit there with millions of $$, a bunch of boats and people and just.....drink beer? There was a whole bunch of stuff more important. FSP wasn't about finding the best solution - it was about finding the least worst. Because there will always be things that have to wait. We pull Ph 2 forward, what workforce and $$ get given up? MCM replacement? M113 replacement? DPN upgrades?

This ARCOPS bullshit acronym further highlights DTR hasn't done any deep reading. They haven't touched the various concepts and orders - because they'd see (a) the concept and (b) it couldn't be more purple. And not that silly purple we've tried in the past where we show you a green page and say it's purple - like really purple. Royal purple. ARCOPS - pshaw....

I'm not even dignifying their tank outbox with a response. It's ignorance is up there with anti-vax and QAnon. No, wait. One point. Do they honestly think, if HMAS Canberra (III) rocks up in Sydney in 1945, all 27 000 tonnes of her, (dwarfing HMAS Australia getting repaired in Cookatoo Dock and the same size as the recently lost HMAS Canberra (I)) do you think the planners for OBOE will go "gosh chaps, can't put the Matilda's on that. Keep the LSTs"?

Pshaw

Thanks for the response.

Education only.

The LCM 8 replacement.

My understanding as mirrored in the DTR article, is that the LCM 8 replacement will probably be too big for the docking well of the Canberra Class, yet too small for any realistic "open ocean passages over the distances relevant to Australia's strategic geography in the sort of weather and sea states frequently encounter"

I can understand the concept of the LHD's connector which are currently the LCM-1e.
I can understand they will need to be replaced and their replacement will have to fit within the parameters of the ships docking well.
They will need to carry Army's increasingly heavy " Stuff "
Probably four new craft of not dissimilar size to the LLC or maybe two larger LCU type craft.

I can understand a larger modern incarnation of the LCH.
Something that can sail regional open ocean passages yet be still small enough to park and extract itself from a beach.

I can see the need for Choule's replacement with hopefully two Joint Support Ship type vessels.

The LCM 8 replacement, I confess, seems not one thing or the other.
The LARC replacement yep, the former totally confused!

Can anyone add to the rationale for such a craft.
It seems a niche vessel for Australia's northern coast without compatibility to other maritime assets.

Is this correct or have I missed something?

Regards S

 

[Flexson]

Well Defence made the Sydney Nine news tonight, apparently the USN,ROKN & JMSDF arrived in Sydney today for naval ex.

They have to stay in their own bubble within the shipaccording to the news report which would pretty much suck for them as the news pointed out the local business missing out on the sailors run ashore but for the USN its the 4th of July tomorrow hopefully the RAN puts on a spread for them within the confines of Garden Island

JS Makinami is the first vessel to use the new, re-aligned Cruiser/Oil Wharf. When I left Supply, ROKS Wang Geon was manoeuvring near Fort Denison looked like it was going to come alongside the new wharf as well. USS Rafael Peralta was sitting off the east side of the island.

 

[DDG38]

Shitty phone shot of FBE this morning with the Korean, Japanese and American DDGs alongside the newly opened Oil & Cruiser wharves. Nice to see FBE so full again !

 

[FormerDirtDart]

Since the Independent Landing Craft and LARC-V replacement were brought up here are links to Navantia Australia's fact sheets on prospective offerings.
Three "Kodal-class" ILC variants, one 25m (can fit in RAN LHD welldeck) & two 35m, and the "Platypus" LARC-V replacement

Capabilities Archive - Navantia Australia

navantia.com.au

I've repeatedly filled out their annoying information blocks to open the PDFs so you won't have to (plus I wanted to download them too...)

Kodal-class Independent Landing Craft:
Kodal 75S, 25m with bow ramp: https://navantia.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/KODAL75S.pdf
Kodal 90DT, 35m drive through: https://navantia.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/KODAL90DT.pdf
Kodal 90S 35m with bow ramp: https://navantia.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/KODAL90S.pdf


Platypus Amphibious Vehicle: https://navantia.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/PLATYPUS.pdf
(not a lot of specific information)

 

[Stampede]

Since the Independent Landing Craft and LARC-V replacement were brought up here are links to Navantia Australia's fact sheets on prospective offerings.
Three "Kodal-class" ILC variants, one 25m (can fit in RAN LHD welldeck) & two 35m, and the "Platypus" LARC-V replacement

Capabilities Archive - Navantia Australia

navantia.com.au

I've repeatedly filled out their annoying information blocks to open the PDFs so you won't have to (plus I wanted to download them too...)

Kodal-class Independent Landing Craft:
Kodal 75S, 25m with bow ramp: https://navantia.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/KODAL75S.pdf
Kodal 90DT, 35m drive through: https://navantia.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/KODAL90DT.pdf
Kodal 90S 35m with bow ramp: https://navantia.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/KODAL90S.pdf


Platypus Amphibious Vehicle: https://navantia.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/PLATYPUS.pdf
(not a lot of specific information)

Thanks for the PDF

I'd explored the Kodal link but not down loaded, so thanks for that.

Kodal 75S has the "magic beam" figure of 6.4m so certainly should be compatible with the Canberra Class docking well.
Even looks like Navantias other offering in the LCM-1e.
The other two I'm sure are very capable; but again begs the question, if they can't be carried within the well dock of a mother ship, why not make them much larger.

A modern LCH plus size.

Regards S