Australian Army Discussions and Updates

Bob53

Well-Known Member
A few days Greg Sheridan wrote an article saying Australia is wasting money and it’s the wrong strategy to buy additional and upgraded Abrams tanks, it’s behind a paywall now But titled thanks but no tanks for our defence.

The guts of the article was that armour is increasingly vulnerable on the battlefield with drones and ATMs, a massive logistics burden and the money could be better spent on other weaponry more suited to defence of Australia such as long range missiles, and lighter more mobile assets That can hit and run in line with the US Marine strategies we are hearing about.

I think he made some valid points but I’m a logistics guy so get the volumes of movement he is referring to. If I can find it outside of a paywall I will post it.

Jim Molan wrote a reply today arguing otherwise.

I think he made some valid points also.

for those that read both articles, what are your thoughts?
 

oldsig127

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
A few days Greg Sheridan wrote an article saying Australia is wasting money and it’s the wrong strategy to buy additional and upgraded Abrams tanks, it’s behind a paywall now But titled thanks but no tanks for our defence.

The guts of the article was that armour is increasingly vulnerable on the battlefield with drones and ATMs, a massive logistics burden and the money could be better spent on other weaponry more suited to defence of Australia such as long range missiles, and lighter more mobile assets That can hit and run in line with the US Marine strategies we are hearing about.

I think he made some valid points but I’m a logistics guy so get the volumes of movement he is referring to. If I can find it outside of a paywall I will post it.

Jim Molan wrote a reply today arguing otherwise.

I think he made some valid points also.

for those that read both articles, what are your thoughts?
Greg Sheridan is the only News Ltd defence journalist I'd give any credence, but that article was far below his usual quality. It has holes you could drive a brigade of tanks through, let alone the few we're planning to get. I have a hard copy (newspaper) from last week which I actually kept because I couldn't believe he'd publish some of his assertions.

If I get some time I'll try to transcribe the relevant bits for comment.

oldsig
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
A few days Greg Sheridan wrote an article saying Australia is wasting money and it’s the wrong strategy to buy additional and upgraded Abrams tanks, it’s behind a paywall now But titled thanks but no tanks for our defence.

The guts of the article was that armour is increasingly vulnerable on the battlefield with drones and ATMs, a massive logistics burden and the money could be better spent on other weaponry more suited to defence of Australia such as long range missiles, and lighter more mobile assets That can hit and run in line with the US Marine strategies we are hearing about.

I think he made some valid points but I’m a logistics guy so get the volumes of movement he is referring to. If I can find it outside of a paywall I will post it.

Jim Molan wrote a reply today arguing otherwise.

I think he made some valid points also.

for those that read both articles, what are your thoughts?
I have not read the articles, nor do I really feel the need to. I would instead reference US military experience in places like Iraq in the early part of this century. More specifically, some of the plans to dump some of the heavy US kit and raise units like the Stryker brigades which were to be much lighter and highly mobile, with the apparent belief that a rapid mobility force would not require the protection available when under heavy armour. The reality of combat experience proved somewhat different than what policy and decision-makers expected.

IMO the Australian Army needs some sort of mobile, heavily armoured anti-tank/fire support capability which can accompany troops or if needed advance at the front of troops and vehicles. Like a tank can, for instance.

Another take on this is that people have been arguing that with the advent of ATGM's and PGM's a tank as a useful weapon of war is essentially dead. However, this has not been found to be the case yet, and I (absent really, really convincing evidence to the contrary) have to believe that if Sheridan is making any sort of similar argument, he too is at best being premature.
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Sheridan was arguing from the purely ADF perspective, he was not suggesting that tanks had outlived their effectiveness.
He points out that apart from a limited use in Vietnam, Army’s tanks have never been deployed in all conflicts since then.
He not only advocates against tanks but also against other heavy tracked vehicles.
He suggests that the limited defence dollars could be better used for increasing both air and sea assets in the maritime domain of our Indian Pacific strategic environment.
This is obviously a contested position and one which I have some sympathy for but I would look forward to hearing the strategic case against this proposition.
 

Raven22

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I’m afraid the logic of ‘tanks are too vulnerable‘ just doesn’t stand up to scrutiny. It is true that conflicts like the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict of last year show that on a modern battlefield tanks are very vulnerable. However, the bit that always gets missed is that every other vehicle is EVEN MORE VULNERABLE. As an article I read last year put it, on a modern battlefield the only thing worse than being on the inside of a tank is being on the outside of a tank. The tank after all is by definition the best protected platform we can put on a battlefield. If you argue that tanks are obsolete because they are too vulnerable, you are by extension arguing that every single other mounted platform is also obsolete as they are even more vulnerable.

Also, saying that we should be replacing tanks with missiles is the sort of thing you get from people that think war is a computer game or a Tom Clancy novel. War at the end of the day is about enforcing a nations will and exerting control over an enemy. It is very hard to do that from thousands of km away with missiles. They might be part of what is needed, obviously, but they will never be the whole solution. I am a big fan of Wylie’s maxim that the ultimate determinate in war is the man on the scene with a gun. To be the man on the scene you need the ability to fight on land, to be able to fight on land you need tanks. To pretend anything else is fantasy.

The final point is that, compared to other capabilities, tanks are just not that expensive. As a comparison, you can buy about two new M1A2s for the cost of a single LRASM. Add in the cost of the platforms to fire the LRASM, the cost of the platforms needed to protect the platforms that fire the LRASM, plus all the capabilities needed to provide the targeting data etc for the LRASM, and the cost of the tank fleet is a rounding error in comparison. If you scrapped the purchase of the new tanks you would gut the Army’s ability to fight all for the benefit of increasing the stock of LRASM by 40 or so. Nor do tanks cost much to sustain. The tank fleet takes up about 2% of the Army’s sustainment budget. As a comparison, the helicopter fleet takes up about a third of the sustainment budget.

In summary, tanks are cheap and tanks are necessary.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Tanks save lives, well save the lives of the forces they are supporting. Crew members are likely to survive a mobility kill on their vehicle and the vehicle can often be recovered and repaired.

If you are fighting tanks, tanks are the best counter, if you are fighting forces that don't have tanks you have over match and will win.

The systems that can counter tanks can be easily engaged and destroyed by supporting capabilities, i.e. precision fires, air attack, or most effective against infantry anti tank teams, your own supporting infantry.

The only systems that can effectively counter tanks, to the point that tanks are useless are massed fires and massed air attack. These systems would also disrupt or destroy light and motorised forces, more easily than armoured forces.

So in a nutshell you are better off having tanks than not having them while ensuring that you can counter enemy fires and air attack, which has nothing to do with tanks and if you can't you have lost anyway.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I’m afraid the logic of ‘tanks are too vulnerable‘ just doesn’t stand up to scrutiny. It is true that conflicts like the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict of last year show that on a modern battlefield tanks are very vulnerable. However, the bit that always gets missed is that every other vehicle is EVEN MORE VULNERABLE. As an article I read last year put it, on a modern battlefield the only thing worse than being on the inside of a tank is being on the outside of a tank. The tank after all is by definition the best protected platform we can put on a battlefield. If you argue that tanks are obsolete because they are too vulnerable, you are by extension arguing that every single other mounted platform is also obsolete as they are even more vulnerable.

Also, saying that we should be replacing tanks with missiles is the sort of thing you get from people that think war is a computer game or a Tom Clancy novel. War at the end of the day is about enforcing a nations will and exerting control over an enemy. It is very hard to do that from thousands of km away with missiles. They might be part of what is needed, obviously, but they will never be the whole solution. I am a big fan of Wylie’s maxim that the ultimate determinate in war is the man on the scene with a gun. To be the man on the scene you need the ability to fight on land, to be able to fight on land you need tanks. To pretend anything else is fantasy.

The final point is that, compared to other capabilities, tanks are just not that expensive. As a comparison, you can buy about two new M1A2s for the cost of a single LRASM. Add in the cost of the platforms to fire the LRASM, the cost of the platforms needed to protect the platforms that fire the LRASM, plus all the capabilities needed to provide the targeting data etc for the LRASM, and the cost of the tank fleet is a rounding error in comparison. If you scrapped the purchase of the new tanks you would gut the Army’s ability to fight all for the benefit of increasing the stock of LRASM by 40 or so. Nor do tanks cost much to sustain. The tank fleet takes up about 2% of the Army’s sustainment budget. As a comparison, the helicopter fleet takes up about a third of the sustainment budget.

In summary, tanks are cheap and tanks are necessary.
I didn't see this before I posted, yep, spot on and better said than I could.

If tanks can't survive, nothing else can either. In any other situation tanks grant an edge over the enemy and reduce the number of casualties you suffer.
 

vonnoobie

Well-Known Member
Tanks are useless because of missiles? By that same argument ships are vulnerable because of them, aircraft because of them, hell soldiers are vulnerable because of bullets.. by that argument the entire ADF is worthless and should be disbanded? I think not.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Wasn't it Curtis Le May who said that the bomber will win the war? No matter how good your air, naval, cyber,and space power is, at the end of the day you still need the grunt with a rifle, bayonet and a worn pair of boots standing on ground holding that piece of dirt against all comers. Everything else is there to ensure that grunt is able to fight to, capture, hold, and secure that single piece of dirt.
 

Boagrius

Well-Known Member
I also get the impression Greg is suffering from a short memory. IIRC the last time a peer power graced the battlefield (in the Donbass), heavy armour proved to be vitally important while the kind of UAS popularised in the Nagorno Karabakh conflict were routinely denied by the EW and SHORAD capabilities of said peer (Russia). Granted, the terrain in our region is quite different to Europe but with ~70 tanks we are hardly preparing to storm the Fulda Gap...
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I accept all of the previous arguments but all seem to miss the point of “where will the Australian Army use their tanks”.? If we were invaded there is no question they are needed but the point remains we haven’t deployed them, not to ET, not to Iraq or Afghanistan where, PNG, Bougainville, COIN Ops?
I’m trying to better understand their cost benefit for the ADF and so far no one has outlined how and where the Australian tanks would or could be used in the current strategic environment.
I’m not being a contrarian, just looking to be educated.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I accept all of the previous arguments but all seem to miss the point of “where will the Australian Army use their tanks”.? If we were invaded there is no question they are needed but the point remains we haven’t deployed them, not to ET, not to Iraq or Afghanistan where, PNG, Bougainville, COIN Ops?
I’m trying to better understand their cost benefit for the ADF and so far no one has outlined how and where the Australian tanks would or could be used in the current strategic environment.
I’m not being a contrarian, just looking to be educated.
We should have deployed them to Afghanistan, as we should have deployed Blackhawk and made more use of infantry instead of relying and wearing down our special forces. Canada's experience deploying leopard shows exactly why.
 

Boagrius

Well-Known Member
Which, to my mind, is not necessarily indicative of the contingencies to come. If we plan to be ready for high intensity conflict in our region, we're going to want tanks in whatever ARG we intend to contribute...
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
I accept all of the previous arguments but all seem to miss the point of “where will the Australian Army use their tanks”.? If we were invaded there is no question they are needed but the point remains we haven’t deployed them, not to ET, not to Iraq or Afghanistan where, PNG, Bougainville, COIN Ops?
I’m trying to better understand their cost benefit for the ADF and so far no one has outlined how and where the Australian tanks would or could be used in the current strategic environment.
I’m not being a contrarian, just looking to be educated.
Fair question
My take is either we didn't truly have an offering or the contingency did not warrant such a capability.
Iraq One and Two we had Leo's which were already out of date / no modern IFV to compliment the SQN's and as such no truly modern armored capability commensurate to the task in hand. What we did have were allies that used MBT's in large numbers

Sure we could say back in the day we had the only armored brigade in SE Asia but that was then, not now and it was never tested.
Well sort of!!!
East Timor -They were not deployed but were a potential force that the TNI did not have.
They were our ground based F111's
A potential over match capability.
Just prior to Timor we quickly built up our Tank Sqn Numbers from the Light motorized Inf Concept proposed in the defence of Australia 1990's when the Wiff of trouble in Timor highlighted we still had our pants down.
The Leos and other bits of kit were what we had......................................They were not deployed, but at least were ready to go.
Would we have preferred Abrams and true IFV ,for sure, but we didn't have them and just as importantly, if we did, how would we have deployed them.
Amphibious lift was key, so we sent the most appropriate vehicles for the tack at hand with the sea lift available.
M113's and ASLAV did the job. Luckily it played out as it did. repeat Luckily it played out as it did.

Re Afghanistan.
One we had allies to provide the heavy stuff " The Need "
Two we didn't truly have an offering. 59 MBT's were not enough to do justice for three Sqns which we initially did not have. Just Two Sqns.
No complimentary heavy support vehicles ,SPG's, IFV Etc.............................. Just high lights are Armored shopping list of today for the sort of capability we deem necessary for the decade ahead.

The problem has always been not that we haven't recognized the need for such a capability, we for what ever crazy set of dynamics have just not been able to acquire it. I feel ARMY for some decades have let themselves down by not being able to SELL a concept and the bits that are necessary to bring it together.

As to lighter operations like PNG/ Bougainville Etc heavy stuff was / is probably not the priority.
That said, place a near peer competitor in that same geography and we may need to revisit what we take.

We need special forces.
We need motorised forces.
We need heavy forces.

Just my take on the situation


Regards S
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
Tanks save lives, well save the lives of the forces they are supporting. Crew members are likely to survive a mobility kill on their vehicle and the vehicle can often be recovered and repaired.

If you are fighting tanks, tanks are the best counter, if you are fighting forces that don't have tanks you have over match and will win.

The systems that can counter tanks can be easily engaged and destroyed by supporting capabilities, i.e. precision fires, air attack, or most effective against infantry anti tank teams, your own supporting infantry.

The only systems that can effectively counter tanks, to the point that tanks are useless are massed fires and massed air attack. These systems would also disrupt or destroy light and motorised forces, more easily than armoured forces.

So in a nutshell you are better off having tanks than not having them while ensuring that you can counter enemy fires and air attack, which has nothing to do with tanks and if you can't you have lost anyway.
I might just add the human factor.
While only a reservist I was lucky enough to work with 1st Armoured Regt a number of times in the 80's while at MUR.
I recall a demonstration of how a Troop of Leo's could move through scrub and approach a position under cover.
Sure it was rehearsed and they had local knowledge. What amazed me was how confusing the play of sound from the tanks engines and the crashing of the foliage played on your mind.
We were all standing and trying to point out the direction we thought they were coming from.
Not all of us got it correct!!!!!!!!!!
I could of had the best ATGM in the world but its hard to take a shot with soiled under ware.

Tanks are intimidating beasts in the hands of professionals.


Regards S
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Australia has repositioned for a possible Pacific peer level conflict. The last time such a conflict occurred in the region was 80 years ago and a lot of people were caught with their collective pants down. Whilst the USN WP Orange eventually played out it was a long hard bloody slog for all involved. WP Orange was thrown out at the start but looking back it forecast what happened. It spoke of Island hopping to gain bases from which to bomb Japan and to blockade Japan. Prior to the US entrance into the war WP Orange was cast aside because of the requirement for large opposed amphibious landings, which are expensive, manpower and resource intensive. But that's what actually happened. During the vast majority of these landings armoured forces were used in way or another. In the case of the Luzon landings, once the initial beach heads were secured, they were then used in the more traditional way.

In a future peer conflict in the region I would suspect that a similar situation would arise where amphibious warfare will be a considerable component of the conflict. To that end, like WW2, armoured forces will still be required. Just because the USMC has divested itself of its tanks, is no valid reason why the Australian Army should.
 

Takao

The Bunker Group
I accept all of the previous arguments but all seem to miss the point of “where will the Australian Army use their tanks”.? If we were invaded there is no question they are needed but the point remains we haven’t deployed them, not to ET, not to Iraq or Afghanistan where, PNG, Bougainville, COIN Ops?
I’m trying to better understand their cost benefit for the ADF and so far no one has outlined how and where the Australian tanks would or could be used in the current strategic environment.
I’m not being a contrarian, just looking to be educated.
Sheridan is completely wrong - and as been said above, most of this lays at the feet of Army. Oops...

Everything above provides the justification for armour; let me have an attempt at strategically justifying it. I'll apologise now for length and beg your indulgence for (a) length and (b) accidently telling you to suck eggs

DSU para 1.3 - 1.6 highlight how the security situation within the Indo-Pacific is degrading, with Great Power competition and 'grey zone activities' {:rolleyes:} increasing. Para 1.6 - 1.8 highlight how there is an effective arms race within the region, with multiple nations conducting military modernisation. Para 1.12 sums it up:

Major power competition, coercion and military modernisation are increasing the potential for and consequences of miscalculation. While still unlikely, the prospect of high-intensity military conflict in the Indo-Pacific is less remote than at the time of the 2016 Defence White Paper, including high-intensity military conflict between the United States and China
Para 1.17 - 1.20 further define the security situation in the region as degraded and under increased risk beyond 'simple' State-on-State conflict. As para 1.20 says:

The trends set out above signal a security environment markedly different from the relatively more benign one of the past, with greater potential for military miscalculation, including state-on-state conflict that could engage the ADF.
Chapter 2 hits the key points, but I'll note that while there is a focus on the Indo-Pacific region, para 2.11 highlights our need to be able to respond at further distances if needed (although not an equal level force design determinant, it is still Government direction). Additionally, para 2.13 directs, among others, increased self-reliance for deterrence and enhance the lethality of the ADF.

Now it boils down to the three key bulwarks of the DSU: shape, deter, respond. Para 2.14 onwards define this, but key points for this discussion are:

Shape - build new, and strengthen existing, partnerships, strengthening sovereignty and resilience to coercion, cooperative defence activities is fundamental to our ability to shape our strategic environment, be prepared to lead coalition operations

Deter - Australia take greater responsibility for our own security, deliver deterrent effects against a broad range of threats.

Respond - The ADF must be better prepared for such conflict if deterrence measures fail, or to support the United States and other partners where Australia’s national interests are engaged, enhance the lethality and readiness.

So what does this mean for the Land Domain? Firstly, to shape and lead we need a credible military. The reality is that coalition leaderships and credibility still (rightly or wrongly) fall upon the land forces, especially in this region. So the land force needs to be credible, meaning its well trained and equipped to fight a broad range of threats, including China (although that is less relevant - as chap 1 highlights, war with China is but one possibility). A land force that is credible, trained and equipped means that it has some deterrence effects, and here you get into another aspect. The land force needs to be able to hit hard. And, as much as possible, from range and at any time. This demands firepower, and heavy firepower at that. It also demands excellent communications and the ability to respond quickly, be it tactically or strategically. A land force that can do these can respond, but note that we have to respond across a range of scenarios.

So the land force needs to be credible, flexible, resilient, protected, have good chunks of firepower and comms. This could be anything - until you take a step back and consider how any army fights.

The reality of any element within the land force is that they all have flaws. Infantry is squishy, slow and weakly armed; artillery vulnerable at range and if it can't see; armour vulnerable in close terrain and if you get in close; engineers are just plain offensive {:p} but lack firepower and aviation struggles in persistence and weather. So we know that any land force needs counters for each of the negatives for any force it uses. The key is simple and relearnt again in 1917 - combined arms. It's one of two basic planks of how the Australian Army operates. Arty gives me fire support in all weather but is slow to respond across a theatre while Avn responds rapidly but lacks persistence. So, SPH + ARH. Bade dudes put up obstacles to kill our slow and weak infantry, so we throw the Sappers in. And the infantry can protect the Sappers.

Now, like strawberries and cream, soldiers and beer or dogs and happiness, the two arms that cover each other the best are armour and infantry. Almost every single negative for a tank is a positive for infantry and vice versa. Which means that everywhere you put a grunt, you want a tank. Well, a Coy of grunts and a Tp of tanks - they don't fight alone. Without tanks your infantry can only be used for the lightest of duties. Now this does demand other attributes - logistics and engineers - but we return to the DSU we find they also contribute to the other parts of resilience and shape, both trades are essential to building partnerships and responding to threats. Furthermore, nothing can provide the shock action, firepower, mobility and persistence of a tank - all of which are much more than the sum of its parts.

So to meet the Government directives and you need tanks. They give credibility, lethality and persistence in a way nothing else can. There may be a replacement the future - but not now.

But where to use them (the second half of your question)? Well, the DSU answer is yours - wherever there are infantry and there is a threat. @Volkodav says it best here, but if the threat has tanks you need the same and if they don't you have over match. The statistical answer is that studies with and without armour consistently show that adding tanks to the mix in all forms of warfare from COIN to peer conflict mean you save lives, mostly infantry. This is for Russian, European, Middle Eastern, American and Australian experiences - any nation that practices combined arms warfare. In Vietnam we saved lives with tanks, and in Afghanistan the Canadians found that was the case. In both these conflicts we can even compare before and after tanks.

But if committing tanks saves lives, why not us in AFG or IRA? Two things - outdated tank (Leo 1) that was not survivable and politics. Every force we commit is a political decision, and none of the governments of the day wanted a big Australian presence or one that was in enough combat to take casualties. So it was more palatable to adopt lower threat areas and restrictive ROE than deploy tanks. Plus the appearance of sending tanks wouldn't have fit with either Party's goals of downplaying our involvement; same as why Tiger didn't go.

Fundamentally, to look at limited wars of choice and say 'we didn't use them so don't need them' is really bad. We'd have never bought F/A-18's if that was the case. JTF's are politically built, and just because there is a threat doesn't mean that the ADF will get their way in what they send. I'd argue that the job the F/A-18's were doing in the MEAO recently could have been done by almost any propeller plane and they weren't engaged in air-to-air combat, but you'll never see me saying the RAAF hasn't fought since 1952 so we don't need fighters. Tanks allow that flexibility, the government can chose not to send them. Better that than committing forces and realising we need tanks - but don't have them. It also gives the Government more options as to how to respond to conflicts, or even if they do in the first place.

Overall / TLDR - the Government has directed the ADF to be credible, lethal and able to respond. The tank is a critical part of the Army's contribution to these aspects that cannot be replaced by any other system. They literally save lives; you should deploy them anywhere there is a threat armed with more than a rifle and there are Australian or friendly infantry. And finally, decisions to use assets previously should not be sued for force design in the future as they are political, not capability based.
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Tanks are useless because of missiles? By that same argument ships are vulnerable because of them, aircraft because of them, hell soldiers are vulnerable because of bullets.. by that argument the entire ADF is worthless and should be disbanded? I think not.
Yep, best rebuttal I’ve seen. More soldiers were killed by bullets in that conflict, than armoured vehicles were killed by precision fires, so maybe all infantry forces are now obsolete, according to this “logic”?
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I accept all of the previous arguments but all seem to miss the point of “where will the Australian Army use their tanks”.? If we were invaded there is no question they are needed but the point remains we haven’t deployed them, not to ET, not to Iraq or Afghanistan where, PNG, Bougainville, COIN Ops?
I’m trying to better understand their cost benefit for the ADF and so far no one has outlined how and where the Australian tanks would or could be used in the current strategic environment.
I’m not being a contrarian, just looking to be educated.
Part of the problem with that basis for a thought exercise, is the type of missions we have conducted, since Vietnam. We haven’t had large (battalion or bigger) conventional ground forces conducting close combat, combined arms operations against enemy forces at all in any of those conflicts. We let our allies, with their heavy armour do that instead…

It’s the same argument for almost any high end capability in ADF you’d care to mention. We’ve never fired a single SM-2 against an aircraft in combat, so does the Navy ”really” need SM-2? The answer of course, is they sure as hell will if deployed in actual combat, just as Army will require it’s MBT’s, IF it is deployed to actually engage in close combat operations. The where is really irrelevant. “Where“ is anywhere Army will actually go.
 
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