Indonesian Aero News

[Ananda]

Video from Kompas TV. It's in Indonesian, sorry no English subtitle. However I put here, since it's shown CN-235-220M assembly process and also one of TNI-AL MPA installation process. The latest cockpit of CN-235 version shown already full glass cockpit. Even the MPA version for Senegal AF that they have just delivered (on later part if video), shown the cockpit still part analog and glass ones.

DI in this video claim that Airbus now already focus on C-295 and left CN-235 manufacturing with DI. It's also claim the process for Civilian version derivative of CN-235, the N-245 still in progress.

 

[STURM]

- the Sea Darts were already becoming obsolete,

Sea Dart was originally intended to deal with targets at medium to high altitudes. From what I've read it had trouble with targets flying low. All in all; IMO it performed well; shooting down several targets. Years later Sea Dart also intercepted an Iraqi Silkworm [granted the Silkworm was a 1960's subsonic design].

- just bad luck on the side of the RN.

The RN was extremely lucky in that all of the attacks carried out in San Carlos were a low altitudes. Too low for the fuzes on quite a few Argie bombs to fully arm.

 

[Rob c]

he RN was extremely lucky in that all of the attacks carried out in San Carlos were a low altitudes. Too low for the fuzes on quite a few Argie bombs to fully arm.

Yes this is a factor, but if they had been higher they would have put them selves into a significantly belter engagement zone for the defenders. The higher up that they flew made for earlier detection and a longer engagement time.

 

[STURM]

Indeed. The thing is; I don’t think the Argies were aware that some of their bombs were not going off due to altitude issues (wasn’t mentioned in “The Argentine Fight For The Falklands” - Middlebrook and “Wings Over the Malvinas” - Rivas) they probably would have flown higher had they been aware; despite the risks.

 

[Ananda]

https://www.facebook.com/107396107508066/posts/290559715858370

This's agreement seems related to the effort on keeping Hawk 200/100 in TNI-AU inventory to be operational for sometime around. Especially providing Indigenous support capabilities.

https://infoglobal.co.id/id/detailnews/125

The agreement being call for reverse engineering the Hawk Adour engine. Bit make me wonder on with the capabilities of both companies. This Infoglobal mostly has experience in Avionics, while Nusantara Turbin as DI subsidiary mostly work as Turbine MRO. Both doesn't have (so far) the capabilities to build an engine from ground up. Off course the idea of Habibie when IPTN then build Nusantara Turbine, was to be nucleus of Indonesia own indigenous Gas Turbine manufacturing.

However I don't see they (Nusantara Turbine) have the capability or more important given the Investment necessary to build supporting technology on manufacturing Gas Turbine. They have reasonable facilities doing heavy MRO. However that doesn't mean enough capabilities on manufacturing.

I'm bit carefully to read the development on recent reverse engineering drive initiate by MinDef. Before they (MinDef) also initiate SOE consortium to reverse engineering Chinese C-705 Missiles. The development seems been tone down so far (except some Missiles models testing in wind tunnel that I've put before). Not that I'm saying they don't have capabilities for reverse engineering, but doing so need constant Investment with high risk factor to fail. Something that Indonesian bureaucracy shown reluctance on big Investment in RnD.

So build Turbofan need large Investment on metallurgy and precision engineering. Despite Indonesia has metallurgy research since Soekarno era, but in my opinion it's still not connected toward day to day manufacturing industry. All the domestic steel companies for example, relied on Foreign Partner technology to develop their steel products. So I do have big doubt on metallurgy RnD capabilities in Indonesia, despite they're already doing it for sometime. If local Industry didn't use them, then there doubt even from local on their capabilities.

This's all in my opinion result from lack of consistent Investment in RnD. Can those reverse engineering projects will gain result ? Off course they can, but it will need constant high risk Investment on developing what been call basic science. This's where my doubt came.

Still in the end they can do reverse engineering by 'buying' off the shelf tech from the outside. I do sense that's in the end that will happen on those reverse engineering Projects. It'll provide less risky Investment, and that's will suit better with Indonesian bureaucracy.

Anyway, seems by doing this the plan for LCA Investment for Hawk replacement being delayed. Perhaps cause the budget being diverted to MRCA Investment. As I point out, if they want to keep getting MRCA, some budget need to be diverted.

 

[Todjaeger]

The RN was extremely lucky in that all of the attacks carried out in San Carlos were a low altitudes. Too low for the fuzes on quite a few Argie bombs to fully arm.

Sorry a bit OT but wanted to cover this.

Luck did not have much to do with it, rather a lack of professional knowledge on the part of the Argentine Air Force. As I understand it the issue was not one of the altitude being too low for the fuze to arm, but rather that the time between a bomb's release and then impact was too short for it to arm. IIRC the Argentinian Naval Air Arm pilots had been trained (by the US) in a low altitude bomb release technique which would have given sufficient time for more/most of the fuzes to arm. This in turn would have most likely led to a different outcome.

 

[STURM]

Luck did not have much to do with it, rather a lack of professional knowledge on the part of the Argentine Air Force.

Would you agree that the RN was lucky in that a 'lack of professional knowledge on the part of the Argentine Air Force' led to a few bombs hitting their targets but not exploding due to the reason you mentioned

but rather that the time between a bomb's release and then impact was too short for it to arm.

Had they been flying a bit higher wouldn't there have been more time between release and impact?

 

[ngatimozart]

Would you agree that the RN was lucky in that a 'lack of professional knowledge on the part of the Argentine Air Force' led to a few bombs hitting their targets but not exploding due to the reason you mentioned

Don't encourage him

Had they been flying a bit higher wouldn't there have been more time between release and impact?

No the would've had a higher chance of being shot down. Interestingly enough during WW2 the skip bombing technique was developed for antishipping attacks and IIRC was quite successful.

There was nothing unprofessional about the Argentinian Air Force attacks against the RN and the pilots committed their attacks with great valour and skill. Maybe the cracker stackers (armourers) did stuff up on the fusing settings or whoever wrote the OPSORDERS.

 

[STURM]

Don't No the would've had a higher chance of being shot down.

Yes they would have. It’s just an assumption on my part but if they realised that quite a few of their bombs were not going off; they probably would have flown higher despite the risks. Quite a few books (including the 2 mentioned in a previous post) mentioned the bomb issue but there’s no indication the Argies were actually aware of it.

In a 1990’s documentary on the war; Ewen Southby-Tailyour mentions the Argentine pilots as having the right temperament and aptitude; quite a few of them were race car drivers and polo players.

during WW2 the skip bombing technique was developed for antishipping attacks and IIRC was quite successful.

If I recall correctly B-24s employed this tactic with considerable success in the Bismarck Sea.

If I had to pick a Cold War turned Hot War scenario which would have come closest replicating what was encountered at San Carlos; what comes to mind are RN ships at a Norwegian fjord fending off Soviet air attacks.

 

[ngatimozart]

Yes they would have. It’s just an assumption on my part but if they realised that quite a few of their bombs were not going off; they probably would have flown higher despite the risks. Quite a few books (including the 2 mentioned in a previous post) mentioned the bomb issue but there’s no indication the Argies were actually aware of it.

In a 1990’s documentary on the war; Ewen Southby-Tailyour mentions the Argentine pilots as having the right temperament and aptitude; quite a few of them were race car drivers and polo players.



If I recall correctly B-24s employed this tactic with considerable success in the Bismarck Sea.

Wouldn't have been the mighty B-24 Liberator. Though the sight of them at wave top height powering in would've been impressive. No it was the USAAC B-25 Mitchells, A-20 Havocs along with RAAF Bristol Beauforts and Beaufighters.

Interestingly enough the only major low level B-24 bombing operations during WW2 that I can think of is, are the raids against the Ploesti oil refineries in Romania. Those raids recorded high casualities amongst the aircrews.

 

[Ananda]

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=294443255470016&id=107396107508066

From MinDef Defense Potential Agency FB page. I put it here mostly on Airbus Indonesia plan project with Garuda MRO for seems installation and modifications for Air Refueling. Also with LEN on UAV Airborne Warning and Maritime Surveillance.

Seems Airbus already make preparation for MRTT and UAV projects involvement. Thus the foreign tech partner for that UAV project begin shown to where going to be sources.

Off course as always nothing certain until deliver.

 

[Yama]

Wouldn't have been the mighty B-24 Liberator. Though the sight of them at wave top height powering in would've been impressive. No it was the USAAC B-25 Mitchells, A-20 Havocs along with RAAF Bristol Beauforts and Beaufighters.

Not aware of B-24's using the skip bombing missions (though they might have) but B-17's did. Interestingly enough, Italians were one of the first to use it, with Ju-87's.
The tactic, though effective against lightly defended targets, was not a panacea however. Big level bombers flying straight & level were very easy AAA targets.
Any way, this is heavily offtopic by this point ofc.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=294443255470016&id=107396107508066

From MinDef Defense Potential Agency FB page. I put it here mostly on Airbus Indonesia plan project with Garuda MRO for seems installation and modifications for Air Refueling. Also with LEN on UAV Airborne Warning and Maritime Surveillance.

Seems Airbus already make preparation for MRTT and UAV projects involvement. Thus the foreign tech partner for that UAV project begin shown to where going to be sources.

Off course as always nothing certain until deliver.

It looks like that Airbus has much more chance with the A330 MRTT than the EF2000.

And it is ofcourse good for the Elang Hitam UAV project to have a partner like Airbus for support on the development.

After last month first time of firing a Kh-29TE missile, last week a second exercise was flown. This time TS-3010 and TS-3004 were flying, carrying one Kh-29TE on each aircraft.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1129286047576569

Sadly that stupid Facebook doesnt cooperate again...
(This video is not yet available on youtube or twitter.)

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

An article about something we often discuss here at Defencetalk, what does Indonesia actually want?

| "This incident involving the KRI Nanggala follows the sinking of a 1970s-era former East German landing ship in rough seas in July 2020, along with a series of crashes of Indonesian-owned, BAE Systems-made Hawk trainer/light-attack jets in recent years." |

The disaster of KRI Nangala 402 is the first and only accident with a Type 209 submarine. Also the BAe Hawk and Mi-17 are known as a reliable aircraft, still we are able to let them often crash.

Is it bad luck, are we that cursed? I can not believe it is always weather or supernatural phenomenons which cause all these accidents, and it is obviously also not always age of the equipment.

What’s impeding Indonesia’s military ambitions?

The recent loss of a 40-year-old Indonesian submarine has highlighted the need for the Southeast Asian nation to replace many of its military platform.

www.defensenews.com

 

[tonnyc]

An article about something we often discuss here at Defencetalk, what does Indonesia actually want?

| "This incident involving the KRI Nanggala follows the sinking of a 1970s-era former East German landing ship in rough seas in July 2020, along with a series of crashes of Indonesian-owned, BAE Systems-made Hawk trainer/light-attack jets in recent years." |

The disaster of KRI Nangala 402 is the first and only accident with a Type 209 submarine. Also the BAe Hawk and Mi-17 are known as a reliable aircraft, still we are able to let them often crash.

Is it bad luck, are we that cursed? I can not believe it is always weather or supernatural phenomenons which cause all these accidents, and it is obviously also not always age of the equipment.

What’s impeding Indonesia’s military ambitions?

The recent loss of a 40-year-old Indonesian submarine has highlighted the need for the Southeast Asian nation to replace many of its military platform.

www.defensenews.com

Well, the article also points out the inability to stick to a long term vision. It's not that we don't have one. It's that we have many, with every faction having their own version which they think is best, and every time a faction gets the top position they want to scrap their predecessor's and implement theirs.

 

[Ananda]

bad luck, are we that cursed? I can not believe it is always weather or supernatural phenomenons which cause all these accidents, and it is obviously also not always age of the equipment.

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This video is been circulate for 2-3 days already. Haven't put it before, since despite that 'madam' defense consultant claim, it's still in my opinion talking on rough concept.

However the other 'madam' presidential advisor put what I've been heard for sometime from my colleagues in Bapenas and Ministry of Finance. The need for details calculation of Life time sustainment costs on defense procurement. This again shown how both agencies already demand the Maintenance and Sustainment has to be calculated from beginning by MinDef, as this is the problem for TNI assets for long time.

She also confirm that planning (especially long term planning) always have risk on changing with the changing of regime/administration. Something that already known especially after Soeharto era. So the question that seems the present MinDef try to do is looking the long term plan more then SBY's MEF plan.

The 'consultant' talk about draft of USD 20+bio and USD 100+bio on defense procurement foreign financing budget try to be lock on this present term of 2020-24. The USD 20+bio has been talk for sometime, and I also heard from Bapenas source that confirm it's what MinDef ask for this term foreign financing budget line. This's still under discussion with Ministry of Finance and Bapenas which still calculate each Financing Term being offered, toward the whole sovereign foreign debt burden(DSR) scenario. They will decide which ones can be considered and which ones considered too heavy for sovereign DSR level.

While the USD 100+ bio is something that's quite new. I suspect since Prabowo's talk about 25 years defense planning before. He wants to look the next 20 years (after this term) financing from now. That'll tricky, as how to lock the financing can results to added financial strains on overall national fiscal budget. If the lock only in numbers, perhaps not. However if the locks on multiyears committed financing line, that's another matter. However I understand their logic to lock the financing plan. Problem with current MEF plan is only shown 'broad' plan on how to proceed. If somehow they can lock the numbers and financing line, it's become more 'structure' plan. This'll be back on how to lock it without becoming up front fiscal burden yet on long term DSR ratio calculation.

All of this shown how the way of planning need to be change, with detail calculation and sustainment plan from beginning. The sustainment if can be lock from beginning will be game changer, cause this is where "multiple" Projects behavior coming from. The side 'projects' mostly not on main procurements (as it's big and usually under scrutinized), however on 'many' smaller sustainment projects.

 

[ngatimozart]

Maybe they should come and talk to the NZ Ministry of Defence and NZ Treasury about how we have restructured and professionalised our procurement system. Plus how we plan our our capability projects.

 

[Ananda]

we have restructured and professionalised our procurement system. Plus how we plan our our capability projects.

I can't talk about MinDef or other Ministries, however the financial agencies like Ministry of Finance, Bapenas, The Central Bank, and Monetary Authorities all have spend Investment to get latest budgeting and procurement procedures and planning from Global Class Consultants.

That's why there're gaps on know how in doing planning, budgeting and implementations between those financial agencies with other ministries and agencies. Well, it's their jobs to push and train the standard toward other ministries and agencies.

Still the problem in Indonesia is how to lock politically commitment for long term planning and implementation schedulle. I've put before on calculation that USD 20 bio (for this term up to 2024) foreign financing line is doable, "if" they manage to get preferable pricing and tenure. If they can contruct the financing scheme say for 7 or 10 years with soft/low cost pricing, they can turn out around USD 2.5-3.5 bio in annual installment. Still within range of around 30%+ foreign financing DSR which so far the Ministry of Finance target. More than that, it will push Sovereign DSR target above what Ministry of Finance and other financial regulators comfortable with.

Thus if they aim to get politicall commitment
on defense foreign items procurement budget on say this term and next four terms, in theory can be done by locking each terms financing ceiling and schedulles. I believe this has been done by many other Government agencies in the West. It's the practise that derived from commercial practises, and turnout very relevant for Government financial practises too.

 

[tonnyc]

By the way, I will just make this clear to the non-Indonesians. I do not consider Madame Defense Consultant to be a credible source of information or expertise on defense matters. She is about as credible as our Twitter Oracle, just an older pre-Twitterati generation. The media loves her because she makes bombastic claims that makes good clickbait titles.

Now, I am not saying that there is not a "mafia". But it's not a big revelation and it's not confined to a single person. Rather there is a network of lobbyists and intermediaries, each pushing their own interests. Is this a mafia? Well, to her it is and it would be great if they can be wiped out. But on the other hand this sort of network is not unique. Of course lobbyists from various vendors will try to influence procurement. Of course they will not confine themselves to strictly ethical means of influence. Of course they will use intermediaries. And given that our military are no saints, they're just people, there will be some who are tainted.

In short, take her words with a grain of salt.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

By the way, I will just make this clear to the non-Indonesians. I do not consider Madame Defense Consultant to be a credible source of information or expertise on defense matters. She is about as credible as our Twitter Oracle, just an older pre-Twitterati generation. The media loves her because she makes bombastic claims that makes good clickbait titles.

Now, I am not saying that there is not a "mafia". But it's not a big revelation and it's not confined to a single person. Rather there is a network of lobbyists and intermediaries, each pushing their own interests. Is this a mafia? Well, to her it is and it would be great if they can be wiped out. But on the other hand this sort of network is not unique. Of course lobbyists from various vendors will try to influence procurement. Of course they will not confine themselves to strictly ethical means of influence. Of course they will use intermediaries. And given that our military are no saints, they're just people, there will be some who are tainted.

In short, take her words with a grain of salt.

Your Twitter Oracle has spoken!

If Indonesia sign contract for 36 Rafale in 2021, Jakarta likely wants delivery schedule as follow:
4 delivered by 2023
1 a/c monthly between 2024-2026
No delivery before 2023.
Contract may happen if Indonesia has enough money for 36 Rafale. Current PSP isn't enough for 36.

Where does he get his information from?
:-D