Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

[Boagrius]

On a somewhat less... salacious(?) note, I did some digging on MAD-FIRES and found this:

The DARPA MAD-FIRES program seeks to use a medium-caliber guided projectile to engage maneuvering threats. Current projectile technologies have been demonstrated in flight maneuver, but only recently have advances in electronics and gun survivability opened the possibility of projectile-based seekers. One possible seeker type is RF seekers. Current RF systems require apertures larger than projectile diameter for target tracking in terminal engagement.

A novel approach is needed for achieving sufficient gain at small diameter to enable medium-caliber RF seekers. The alternative solution of command-guidance from ground radar places significant accuracy requirements on that radar, which becomes prohibitive for very long-range acquisitions. Optical sensors offer high accuracy, but are limited in range and require hot targets or daylight illumination. RF seekers are the primary candidate for maturation.

Medium Caliber Projectile Conformal Antenna RF Seeker | SBIR.gov

www.sbir.gov

So it seems we may be about to see a transition in CIWS technology. My read of it is that you need an RF seeker onboard each round to provide enough accuracy at longer range, and you need a larger round to house a capable enough seeker to achieve this. 57mm seems to be the calibre of choice ATM (ref the Russian Derivatsiya PVO) but time shall tell if it could eventually be applied to a more compact ~40mm system. The 57mm gun mount could prove to be quite bulky/intrusive for some vessels eg. it takes the place of the main gun on the USN's forthcoming Constellation class, sacrificing the option of a larger calibre weapon (and NGFS capability + 127mm HVPs with it) in favour of a far more relevant CIWS (paired with RIM-116).

 

[protoplasm]

On a somewhat less... salacious(?) note, I did some digging on MAD-FIRES and found this:

Medium Caliber Projectile Conformal Antenna RF Seeker | SBIR.gov

www.sbir.gov

it takes the place of the main gun on the USN's forthcoming Constellation class, sacrificing the option of a larger calibre weapon (and NGFS capability + 127mm HVPs with it) in favour of a far more relevant CIWS (paired with RIM-116).

This isn’t without precedent, the OHPs only had an OTO 76 with no room anywhere for a larger gun. It would seem that the CONOPS thinking by the USN doesn’t have their frigates doing NGFS and that this is being carried through in the Constellation design. This tech suits using the gun as a tool of defence against smaller manouvering threats, rather than the capacity to hit longer ranged, but less manouverable targets.

 

[Rob c]

My argument against the Phalanx has always been that the calibre is too small, hence the range to short. Even if it shreds a AShM the range is so close the momentum of the missile wreckage is still going to cause it to hit the ship. When the missiles were the size of the Penguin, it wasn't so much of a problem, but now you have missiles with 500kg warheads and weighing close to 1 tonne. That's a lot of potential energy heading your way at 600 knots. If it's a supersonic missile such as the Brahmos then the potential energy is far greater. In that case you want to destroy them as far out as possible. 2,000m is far to close.

While to some extent this is true, what must be taken into mind is the effect of gravity which is of course always there and once the missile has lost lift it will be going down according to the laws of gravity. So whether its momentum will take it on to the target will be reliant on the range from the target, the height of the missile above sea level and its time of flight to the target. If any of these factors are outside the laws of gravity it is not going to make it and that assumes that the warhead is still intact. The other thing to keep in mind is that any hits on a missile will seriously disrupt its aerodynamics which will cause both control issues and vastly increase drag, meaning the missile could both slow quickly and head off in another direction as the extra forces cause it to break up. I did a calculation in a post some time ago which showed that a missile had to be quite high if it was shot down at 1 km for its momentum to carry it to the target due to the effects of gravity. I cannot remember the figure but it was well above the Height any of the sea skimming missiles travel at. Just remember momentum does not cancel out gravity.

 

[MrConservative]

RAN clearly has spent all the CIWS money on soviet dancers. This has to be most awkward thing caught on camera.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1382092746547097602

I don't know. I think I would have preferred Cher turning back time. Surely that would be an obvious song to commission a ship to.

So this is the new Australian Haka? I'll enjoy watching it at Eden Park the next time the Wallabies play there. Don't know about the wearing of the Canterbury Crusader colours though. They should have been wearing yellow and gold tights and bikini tops. Much more appropriate.

Then again I am assuming this is also the unveiling of a multi-factorial PSYWAR ops approach by the RAN and seems to be succeeding going by the look of concern on the faces of some of the invited defence attaches.

 

[ADMk2]

Looks to me like some of the brass were sweating over whether or not they authorised this dance troupe...

 

[ngatimozart]

So this is the new Australian Haka? I'll enjoy watching it at Eden Park the next time the Wallabies play there. Don't know about the wearing of the Canterbury Crusader colours though. They should have been wearing yellow and gold tights and bikini tops. Much more appropriate.

Might give Razor ideas for his dancing troupe. Some of the current ones do look like they could do with a good feed or two.

 

[spoz]

Understand from the grapevine that this was decided upon on the basis that it was an indigenous dance group. Obviously, no one had considered what sort of indigenous dance group! I would imagine someone had some explaining to do on Monday morning, possibly with swords and medals...

 

[DDG38]

To clarify, the dance group performance was done before the actual commissioning ceremony with no VIPs in attendance. The video was edited to make it look like the VIPs were watching the performance when in fact they didn't see it. The group was from the Woolloomooloo area hence their inclusion. Frankly I think that as opposed to alleged war crimes being committed by ADF personnel and it's 5 year investigation, this is actually a media beat up aided by conservative politicians seeing an opportunity to join the pile on. Non-story.

 

[MrConservative]

If it was an indigenous cultural group then these folk would have been much more appropriate and are part of the RAN, representative of all indigenous peoples culturally on the eastern seaboard.

Bungaree Indigenous Performance Group | Royal Australian Navy

Royal Australian Navy

www.navy.gov.au

Had they not had a clue that in the groups name "101 Doll Squadron" or went to Facebook to see what they were all about? Could they not have included the local community in a more dignified way and reflective of the community than this? If I was a member of the Woolloomooloo community I would have been insulted by this trash. It has now been reported that this so called dance was immediately prior to a sombre eulogy for Prince Philip on the very launching day of a major vessel in HRH's name.

The media pile on is throughly deserved even if was before the VIP's arrived. It was all part of the official schedule of events. This jump the shark moment could have been avoided with common sense, a measure of dignity and the Spin Doctor 101 nous that the media will always juxtapose any and all images.

 

[Bob53]

On a somewhat less... salacious(?) note, I did some digging on MAD-FIRES and found this:

Medium Caliber Projectile Conformal Antenna RF Seeker | SBIR.gov

www.sbir.gov

So it seems we may be about to see a transition in CIWS technology. My read of it is that you need an RF seeker onboard each round to provide enough accuracy at longer range, and you need a larger round to house a capable enough seeker to achieve this. 57mm seems to be the calibre of choice ATM (ref the Russian Derivatsiya PVO) but time shall tell if it could eventually be applied to a more compact ~40mm system. The 57mm gun mount could prove to be quite bulky/intrusive for some vessels eg. it takes the place of the main gun on the USN's forthcoming Constellation class, sacrificing the option of a larger calibre weapon (and NGFS capability + 127mm HVPs with it) in favour of a far more relevant CIWS (paired with RIM-116).

Without suggesting we turn patrol boats into battleships this seems like an incredible capability for a 57mm gun. A significant capability increase over the 40mm...why wouldn’t a gun like this be considered on a broader scale on the Arafura Class? Is this capability built into the gun or just the projectiles? Would take MK45 to a whole new level.

 

[Boagrius]

It's not totally clear how the system works as yet. My guess is that the ship's onboard sensors cue the gun to fire the shell into a predetermined homing basket where its onboard RF seeker activates and completes the endgame via needed maneuvers. A potential game changer in principle.

 

[Volkodav]

I wouldn't bother up arming PBs or OPVs they have roles that don't require extra armament, besides at the end of the day they will still be patrol vessels, just more expensive to operate.

Instead it would make more sense to start building proper warships instead of OPVs with tacked on weapons. As the Corvettes or light frigates come into service, possibly replacing the last few OPVs in the order books, those already commissioned can be converted to other roles, MCM, hydro, even a modern day APD (assault transport) for special forces, clearance diving and amphibious support.

 

[Bob53]

Volkodav
The Bunker Group
I wouldn't bother up arming PBs or OPVs they have roles that don't require extra armament.

Will the Arafura’s never go in harms way or need to defend themselves? Why have a gun on them at all?

 

[Redlands18]

Volkodav
The Bunker Group
I wouldn't bother up arming PBs or OPVs they have roles that don't require extra armament.

Will the Arafura’s never go in harms way or need to defend themselves? Why have a gun on them at all?

Their primary role is Border protection and Constabulary and they carry Guns for the same reasons your Police do. To stop people from committing serious Crimes and Terrorist acts. They need to be able to provide covering fire when your people board suspicious Vessels. Our Sailors do go in harms way every time they have to board an unknown Vessel, not knowing if there are heavily armed persons on board or if its full of explosives. Aiming a turreted 40mm Gun at the suspect Vessel is a very persuasive way to make them cooperative.

 

[Stampede]

I wouldn't bother up arming PBs or OPVs they have roles that don't require extra armament, besides at the end of the day they will still be patrol vessels, just more expensive to operate.

Instead it would make more sense to start building proper warships instead of OPVs with tacked on weapons. As the Corvettes or light frigates come into service, possibly replacing the last few OPVs in the order books, those already commissioned can be converted to other roles, MCM, hydro, even a modern day APD (assault transport) for special forces, clearance diving and amphibious support.

In the early 2050's when the last of the Arafura Class OPV's retire we will be able to reflect on their service lives and judge how they performed against the expectations of the day.
How many were actually built and what diversity of roles did they perform?
Did they evolve with weapons and systems, or stay as is for the duration of the class.
Only with the benefits of time can we evaluate the equation of what if's should they not have met expectations.

In 2021 without a single vessel currently in the water, this ship class is already the subject of robust debate both on this forum and in the media.
For right or wrong it stirs up passions, so please lets all acknowledge that for many of us on DT we have very differing opinions on this subject.
No one can realistically crystal ball the future of this ship today or the type of world it will be required to provide service for the RAN and the nation it serves.
In 2021 it's just opinions, there is no right or wrong on this subject today.


Regards S

 

[Boagrius]

Interesting piece on the future subs:

Nuclear submarines could lead to nuclear power for Australia | The Strategist

In Adelaide’s The Advertiser newspaper on 7 March, former defence minister Christopher Pyne said, ‘Then there is the nonsensical argument that the Attack Class submarines are no good because they aren’t nuclear. Almost all of ...

www.aspistrategist.org.au

A lot of the critique directed at the Attack class lately seems to assume that procuring SSNs instead is both obvious and straightforward. Neither of these strike me as safe assumptions.

That said, the author advocates 6 diesel Attack class SSGs followed by 6 SSN's. If we were to go the nuclear route, this strikes me (a layman) as possibly a more reasonable path to get there in that it would buy us time to establish the needed support base. Will leave the finer details to the pros...

 

[John Fedup]

Even importing the reactors would be a stretch as neither the US or the UK are likely interested and can barely meet their own domestic needs. France, maybe, and once an Attack sub is available, it could be compared to its SSN sibling to ascertain the relative advantages. If the exporter is obliged to dispose of worn out reactors, I would expect a significant additional cost.

 

[ASSAIL]

To clarify, the dance group performance was done before the actual commissioning ceremony with no VIPs in attendance. The video was edited to make it look like the VIPs were watching the performance when in fact they didn't see it. The group was from the Woolloomooloo area hence their inclusion. Frankly I think that as opposed to alleged war crimes being committed by ADF personnel and it's 5 year investigation, this is actually a media beat up aided by conservative politicians seeing an opportunity to join the pile on. Non-story.

Official complaints are being made about the wilful misrepresentation, via editing, at “our” ABC where anything Defence is a dirty word it seems.

 

[oldsig127]

Official complaints are being made about the wilful misrepresentation, via editing, at “our” ABC where anything Defence is a dirty word it seems.

They're not so much agin Defence ( though they are) as pathologically averse to the new minister. I'd think that almost anything they can spin against Defence is now fair game. Dutton might be a higher powered and more active minister than previously, but the greens and almost all the Labor Party detest him, meaning bipartisanship is likely to be harder to achieve...and ABC and Nine media won't help a bit

oldsig127

 

[ngatimozart]

They're not so much agin Defence ( though they are) as pathologically averse to the new minister. I'd think that almost anything they can spin against Defence is now fair game. Dutton might be a higher powered and more active minister than previously, but the greens and almost all the Labor Party detest him, meaning bipartisanship is likely to be harder to achieve...and ABC and Nine media won't help a bit

oldsig127

Well I don't like Dutton either, but it doesn't mean that I am going to dump on the ADF just because of who the Minister may be. This just shows the immaturity of the of the ALP and the media people. They're acting like a bunch of spoilt toddlers.