- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #221
It could be read as such, but disruption and protection comes in different forms.
China - Geostrategic & Geopolitical.
- Thread starter ngatimozart
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- china geopolitics geostrategy prc
Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
A report from the country that liberated its people....
www.bbc.com
China’s pressure and propaganda - the reality of reporting Xinjiang
In addition to heavy restrictions on journalists in the Xinjiang region, China alleges “fake news”.
www.bbc.com
Ananda
The Bunker Group
Chinese Ships Seen Mapping Strategic Seabed In Indian Ocean - Naval News
Chinese government ships have been carrying out a massive and systematic survey in the eastern Indian ocean. The area covered is at least 500,000 square km, and is getting larger. Data gathered may be particularly relevant to submarine warfare.
www.navalnews.com
This's development from what they already doing within Indonesian waters. The end game is to find safe routes for their Submarine toward Indies Ocean. Shown that China PLAN submarine force aim in near future to become two ocean player.
Despite talk on Andaman mapping and their Survey Vessels in Sunda Strait. I do think that they're more interested with Makasar Strait toward Lombok Strait routes. What being called the Wallace line route.
It's much safer for their Submarine compared to much shallow Java Sea toward Malaca Strait or Sunday Strait. Using Wallace line route with ocean depp channel will be much harder for potential detection. Using that route, their submarine can used deep ocean operation until entering Indies Ocean north of Australia.
Agreed but they still have to transit Lombok Str which can be monitored with relative ease.Chinese Ships Seen Mapping Strategic Seabed In Indian Ocean - Naval News
Chinese government ships have been carrying out a massive and systematic survey in the eastern Indian ocean. The area covered is at least 500,000 square km, and is getting larger. Data gathered may be particularly relevant to submarine warfare.
This's development from what they already doing within Indonesian waters. The end game is to find safe routes for their Submarine toward Indies Ocean. Shown that China PLAN submarine force aim in near future to become two ocean player.
Despite talk on Andaman mapping and their Survey Vessels in Sunda Strait. I do think that they're more interested with Makasar Strait toward Lombok Strait routes. What being called the Wallace line route.
It's much safer for their Submarine compared to much shallow Java Sea toward Malaca Strait or Sunday Strait. Using Wallace line route with ocean depp channel will be much harder for potential detection. Using that route, their submarine can used deep ocean operation until entering Indies Ocean north of Australia.
wallace line map - Google Search
www.google.com
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #225
And nothing some smart mines wouldn't cure in times of conflict.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
If we see the topography map of Indonesian waters between Wallace Line and Weber Line, it's clear deep water on Ocean category.
Eventough they have to exit through Lombok Strait or other straits within Nusa Tenggara archipelago, it's still better then have to transit through Sunday Strait or Bali Straits wich're shallow and narrow. Much easier to monitor. Taking Malaca routes means have to transit in area that monitor by 3 Navies. Even they manage to avoid those 3 Navies, they will come out on Andaman area where Indian (and possibly US) plan to put underwater sensors there. Those Western routes is more difficult to stay submerged.
Submarine operation is aim for stealth. Eventough by rules of Archipelago routes (including Indonesian ALKI routes) any Submarine that transit in the routes need to surface, however if they're not been detected, which submarine commander that want to surface ?
Thus by using that route there are several potential deep straits that can be choose. Eventough they're narrow, but relatively deep. They can choose even deep water gap in Timor Sea which are not that far from Makasar Strait.
TNI-AL know their limitations for Anti Submarine detection. Eventough they are planning for more ASW capabilities, including underwater sensors, I suspect they will priotise on Java Sea and straits toward Java Sea. Not deep sea in Eastern Indonesia between Wallace and Weber Line. Even if they working with RAN, it will not be easy to control that area.
China knows that, the sea between those two lines or between two Continental shelf is the Gap they can relative exploit. In my opinion is basically somehow like smaller version of GIUK Gap.
Eventough they have to exit through Lombok Strait or other straits within Nusa Tenggara archipelago, it's still better then have to transit through Sunday Strait or Bali Straits wich're shallow and narrow. Much easier to monitor. Taking Malaca routes means have to transit in area that monitor by 3 Navies. Even they manage to avoid those 3 Navies, they will come out on Andaman area where Indian (and possibly US) plan to put underwater sensors there. Those Western routes is more difficult to stay submerged.
Submarine operation is aim for stealth. Eventough by rules of Archipelago routes (including Indonesian ALKI routes) any Submarine that transit in the routes need to surface, however if they're not been detected, which submarine commander that want to surface ?
Thus by using that route there are several potential deep straits that can be choose. Eventough they're narrow, but relatively deep. They can choose even deep water gap in Timor Sea which are not that far from Makasar Strait.
TNI-AL know their limitations for Anti Submarine detection. Eventough they are planning for more ASW capabilities, including underwater sensors, I suspect they will priotise on Java Sea and straits toward Java Sea. Not deep sea in Eastern Indonesia between Wallace and Weber Line. Even if they working with RAN, it will not be easy to control that area.
China knows that, the sea between those two lines or between two Continental shelf is the Gap they can relative exploit. In my opinion is basically somehow like smaller version of GIUK Gap.
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Ananda
The Bunker Group
I don't know how to think on this China's move. Basically they're saying to Biden, We want better relationship, and for that we gave you a give of personal sanctions on Trump officials. Are they really think that Biden will take that bait ?
Are they think this's divide and conquer game ? I don't know whose the genious in China Foreign Ministry that sell this idea. What they think Biden will response ?
Biden will have no choice to get tougher. US Politics is divide, Biden need support from at least a quarter of Republican to run US smoothly. Do the Chinese think Biden will be grateful or shown softer tone after this ?
This will only push Biden to get tougher to China. Perhaps he will do it more diplomatically then Trump Twitters, but he has to shown to the Republican that he will not give in to China's move on the cost of Half US constituents.
Do the people in Chinese administration thinking like those ten cents or fifty cents army in the internets. Talking how Global trade now already in China hand, and other people outside US will have no choice to follow them ?
Do they even realize that most of global trade still using USD and not Chinese Yuan..heck even global trade using Euro and Yen is bigger then Yuan. Even most of their companies outside their SOE still prefer USD.
Do they even realize that power of your currencies is much bigger then the amount of your products in global trade ? The power of currencies shown where global trade trust resides.
No matter how much China produce and export, as long as they don't control Global Financial market, as long as most trading nation that matters still don't consider Yuan as Global Hard currency, their place in Global Economics basically still not the dominant one.
Xi really give US and the West service. He shown China true intentions too soon, before they become dominance power in Global Financial market. Because controlling Global Financial market is basically that control Global Trade.
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
Global finance based on using the US dollar as a reserve currency is hugely important to the US and is why the US needs to address its debt. At some point the Global community will start to be concerned about the dollar should the debt fall into dangerous territory.
Nice to see the NZ Trade Minister supporting China in its disputes with Australia!
He suggests that Oz should show a little more respect in its dealings with China.
Meanwhile China is suggesting that NZ will be given the “edge” over Australia in trade.
Thanks “mate”
reported in the Oz today, can’t link.
He suggests that Oz should show a little more respect in its dealings with China.
Meanwhile China is suggesting that NZ will be given the “edge” over Australia in trade.
Thanks “mate”
reported in the Oz today, can’t link.
Further, I copy:
Damien O’Connor NZ Trade Minister after upgrading their FTA with China.
“We have a mature and honest relationship with China and we’ve always been able to raise issues of concern - we have always respected the healthy relationship we have.
I can’t speak for Australia - clearly if they were to follow us and show respect and I guess a little more diplomacy from time to time and be cautious with their wording then they would be in a similar situation to us”.
Beijing’s mouthpiece, The Global Times on Wednesday described the deal as a “wake up call” for Canberra saying it would give NZ “some edge” over Australia in the Chinese market.
I have a good idea, maybe we should applaud the aggression in the SCS and condone the human rights violations and neutralise the “edge”.
Kowtowing has it benefits it seems.
Damien O’Connor NZ Trade Minister after upgrading their FTA with China.
“We have a mature and honest relationship with China and we’ve always been able to raise issues of concern - we have always respected the healthy relationship we have.
I can’t speak for Australia - clearly if they were to follow us and show respect and I guess a little more diplomacy from time to time and be cautious with their wording then they would be in a similar situation to us”.
Beijing’s mouthpiece, The Global Times on Wednesday described the deal as a “wake up call” for Canberra saying it would give NZ “some edge” over Australia in the Chinese market.
I have a good idea, maybe we should applaud the aggression in the SCS and condone the human rights violations and neutralise the “edge”.
Kowtowing has it benefits it seems.
Sandhi Yudha
Well-Known Member
Hopefully only that trade-minister is a puppet of china, and not that whole NZ becomes a vassalstate.
This situation is like your best friend/family member choose the arseh*le of the neighbourhood above you.
Is it this article?
www.abc.net.au
This situation is like your best friend/family member choose the arseh*le of the neighbourhood above you.
Is it this article?
'Follow us and show respect': NZ Minister advises Australia on how to mend ties with China
The Federal Government is fuming after New Zealand's Trade Minister suggests Australia can mend ties with China by showing its government more "respect."
www.abc.net.au
Isn’t it time we looked at NZ’s place in the 5 Eyes? Soft talking to their biggest trading partner and hard talking to their second biggest trading partner and friend. What does NZ really bring to our security relationship? Nothing Australia doesn’t have already. The truth is, in a shooting conflict I don’t see them being there - they will want to be the mediator not an ally. Time for NZ to go and be replaced with Japan. NZ can go into a 2nd tier of friendly countries.
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- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #233
The current government is a left wing govt and it is unfortunate that both of our major political parties are fully enamoured by the trade dollar. However before you go slinging barbed insults around, just remember that people who live in glass houses should be very wary about throwing stones.
Australia is not viewed by the Pacific Island nations and Melanesian nations as a benevolent nation. It is viewed by more than a few as a nation to be treated with caution because of its "colonial" overbearing preaching attitude towards them. They perceive Australia as having the we know better than you attitude. They look at how you treat your indigenous peoples and the refugees who you intern. You claim that you are a modern civilised nation, but they don't see it like that, and to be honest, neither do a lot of Kiwis. We actually find the treatment of your indigenous peoples and the refugees as abhorrent.
These are the same nations that you have to get onboard to ensure your maritime defence. Don't be surprised if the PNG give you the single finger salute and lease the deep water anchorage at Manus to the PRC. So don't come the raw prawn about what we do or don't do. Put your own house in order first.
Barbed insult? Where? Not a reasonable question to ask about NZ contribution to Australia’s security? You answered it but then threw in a whole bunch of other non related issues about indigenous peoples and refugees - why? I am sorry you see Australia that way.
cdxbow
Well-Known Member
I'd say your trade minister has done exactly what the PRC wanted, and perhaps you have too.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #236
I would agree about the trade minister, but I don't resile from what I have said. Sometimes yo need to take a good look at yourselves. We aren't perfect either by any means, but what I wrote is how some see Australia.
If you can't take criticism don't dish it out. Are how the other nations in the Pacific see Australia in the wider context not defence related? I think that they very much are. You cannot silo defence and security from other activities when you are dealing at diplomatic levels because that's how diplomacy, especially in the Pacific works. If you don't understand that you are pushing manure uphill in a big way. The other thing is FVEY is an intelligence agreement, nothing more and nothing less. It is not something that the Defence Forces are engaged in and and have exercises etc., unlike the FPDA etc. Whilst some of us may use the term FVEY in a non intelligence context, it is as a shorthand to denote the FVEY nations rather than typing out the alphabet of the acronyms.
Boagrius
Well-Known Member
My 2c: The NZ Trade Minister's comments are certainly alarming to Aussie ears. That said the Kiwis are not just friends - they are family. I have also long thought the Kiwis to be potentially invaluable to the hearts and minds campaign in the South Pacific, not just for providing "boots on the ground". Hopeful that this episode is a one off and not indicative of a longer term rift.
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- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #238
I know that one piece of legislation we absolutely need here is one similar to your foreign interference legislation.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #239
Anyway back on topic, an Interpreter article discussing how the PRC "Wolf Warrior" diplomats and others have damaged the PRC's image abroad by catering to its domestic audience feeding its nationalistic appetite. Such an approach has damaged the Great Helmsman's plans for the CCP and the PRC, yet he seems to have done nothing to curb the "Wolf Warriors" enthusiasm.
www.lowyinstitute.org
Beijing’s “Wolf Warriors” score own goals | Lowy Institute
A confounding kimchi kerfuffle shows the CCP has made people at home hungry for news of China’s dominance.
www.lowyinstitute.org
As someone who worked very closely with the Kiwis within the 5EYES community, I can assure you they have resources that Australia cannot replicate and we use them regularly. As do the rest of that particular community. I don't think one diplomatic action by our closest ally means all bets are off and we should kick them out of one alliance (not that we would have the clout to do so anyway). It's all part of the larger strategic game all countries play and should be viewed as such, nothing more.