Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

[ASSAIL]

I don't know what it's like nowadays, but I recall a colleague going to work in PNG on a three year contract, & quitting early. He & his wife found Port Moresby scary, & social life was crap. They found it very difficult to interact with locals, because relations between expats & locals were very poor. He said he wasn't surprised, because in his eyes, the (mainly Australian) expats almost all acted as if it was still a colony & they were the masters, & the locals hated it. It was very hard to get past the hostility towards & resentment of expats by locals.

I hope it's improved in the last 30 years, but I found it shocking back then. He reckoned it was self-selecting: more open-minded expats didn't stay, because of the toxic atmosphere.

That sort of atmosphere - or even the memory of it - could make locals favour non-Australians in deals. I can imagine senior officials who worked with Australians like those my ex-colleague described when they were young still having a bias against Australians.

Members of my family still live there.
It is not a single entity, the country is made up from 600 different tribal groups and languages, all have different attitudes towards outsiders and foreigners, some good some bad.
The culture of “Won tok” (one talk) is paramount, your tribal group loyalty above all, it’s a miracle the place is governed at all.
The big towns, particularly Port Moresby and Lae are not great places but out in the regions there are places to die for.
I don’t envy anyone trying to do business in that environment but there are success stories, one is the ship repair yard in Moresby which functions very well for vessels under 1000 tonnes.

 

[StingrayOZ]

PNG is a complicated place. Making a deal with just the central government means nothing, either does making a deal with a province governor, you need to work out a deal at multiple levels. As Assail said, its very much tribal. Deals with other tribes, or members with other tribes in official positions mean nothing to people outside that tribe (in many cases). Your standard top down approach won't work here.

White fella's aren't going to integrate into the tribal culture easily, and yes, many ex-pat Australians live in compounds, particularly in the cities. Where as in most of the pacific island nations you can embed much more closely with the locals, even if they are still in tribal groups. A 2 or 3 year stint won't see you accepted into a local community, particularly in a big city.

Being on the ground is essential in PNG. This is not a country you can strike deals in offices around the world and expect things to happen. PNG is a tough assignment. There are multiple issues before you even get to things like poverty and corruption.

Australia's relationship with PNG is long and complicated. There can be unsurprising tension, but also surprising love and compassion.

'I was wildly wrong': Residents in bushfire-ravaged Merimbula shocked by 'generous' PNG donation

In Papua New Guinea many people earn less than a dollar a day. But that didn't stop one community from donating tens of thousands of dollars to an Australian town badly affected by the Black Summer bushfires.

www.abc.net.au

Australia fires: PNG to send 100 soldiers

Papua New Guinea will send 100 soldiers to help with efforts to fight bushfires in Australia.

www.rnz.co.nz

In terms of geography PNG isn't going anywhere, and due to the historical connection Australia needs to do more and work more with PNG and its provinces.

I am hopeful of the Manus bases (the airport and the navy base), but I certainly think its always worth looking at what we can do with the PNG defence force and across the country.

 

[cdxbow]

Members of my family still live there.
It is not a single entity, the country is made up from 600 different tribal groups and languages, all have different attitudes towards outsiders and foreigners, some good some bad.
The culture of “Won tok” (one talk) is paramount, your tribal group loyalty above all, it’s a miracle the place is governed at all.
The big towns, particularly Port Moresby and Lae are not great places but out in the regions there are places to die for.
I don’t envy anyone trying to do business in that environment but there are success stories, one is the ship repair yard in Moresby which functions very well for vessels under 1000 tonnes.

Good post. I worked in Bougainville before the troubles (I am old) and the issues regarding 'won tok' were paramount. Arawa was a mess because of the different groups (redskins, was how the locals referred to the highlanders) who came there for work. Resentment of outsiders and feeling they were missing out from the wealth of the mine were 2 factors in the rise of the BRA. One thing that was emphasised by the surgeon at Arawa hospital was that they are not unsophisticated politically, they play politics very craftily and very, very hard. It's possible the Daru proposal is a bit of a gambit to see what Oz may come up with.

 

[Morgo]

Frankly this is a national embarrassment.

Presumably DFAT and ASIS knew this was coming - and if they didn’t they should’ve - and the Government should’ve made it a priority to do whatever was needed to scuttle the deal.

Instead our greatest (only?) strategic threat now has a foothold in the Torres Strait. Well done.

 

[Morgo]

I

Good post. I worked in Bougainville before the troubles (I am old) and the issues regarding 'won tok' were paramount. Arawa was a mess because of the different groups (redskins, was how the locals referred to the highlanders) who came there for work. Resentment of outsiders and feeling they were missing out from the wealth of the mine were 2 factors in the rise of the BRA. One thing that was emphasised by the surgeon at Arawa hospital was that they are not unsophisticated politically, they play politics very craftily and very, very hard. It's possible the Daru proposal is a bit of a gambit to see what Oz may come up with.

I certainly hope this is the case. It worked for the Solomons.

 

[ASSAIL]

Frankly this is a national embarrassment.

Presumably DFAT and ASIS knew this was coming - and if they didn’t they should’ve - and the Government should’ve made it a priority to do whatever was needed to scuttle the deal.

Instead our greatest (only?) strategic threat now has a foothold in the Torres Strait. Well done.

You seem to forget that PNG is an independent sovereign nation and can make whatever agreements it likes with any third party.
The inconvenient truth is that Australia cannot “scuttle the deal”.
What we can do is make representation to PNG, explain our concerns, warn about the resource fallacy and make counter offers if deemed appropriate.
I’m sure DFAT and the Govt. have acted on this matter and that they have been well aware of the risks well before that perennial foghorn, Senator Rex Patrick started sounding off.

 

[Morgo]

You seem to forget that PNG is an independent sovereign nation and can make whatever agreements it likes with any third party.
The inconvenient truth is that Australia cannot “scuttle the deal”.
What we can do is make representation to PNG, explain our concerns, warn about the resource fallacy and make counter offers if deemed appropriate.
I’m sure DFAT and the Govt. have acted on this matter and that they have been well aware of the risks well before that perennial foghorn, Senator Rex Patrick started sounding off.

I certainly hope so, and agree with you.

Of course we cannot force PNG to do anything, they are free to choose as they wish. It is up to us to make sure that they choose us, and that it’s clear to them (with appropriate largesse of our own as required) that acting in our interests is acting in theirs too. It seems clear that we have not done that in this instance.

 

[ASSAIL]

I certainly hope so, and agree with you.

Of course we cannot force PNG to do anything, they are free to choose as they wish. It is up to us to make sure that they choose us, and that it’s clear to them (with appropriate largesse of our own as required) that acting in our interests is acting in theirs too. It seems clear that we have not done that in this instance.

Unless you have contacts in DFAT I’m not sure how you conclude that nothing has been done?
I’ll keep my powder dry until confirmed details on the arrangements and our Governments responses are made public.

 

[Morgo]

Unless you have contacts in DFAT I’m not sure how you conclude that nothing has been done?
I’ll keep my powder dry until confirmed details on the arrangements and our Governments responses are made public.

Fair point.

As I said - I certainly hope an appropriate response is forthcoming.

 

[Volkodav]

Considering the PRC uses their fishing fleet as a defacto coast guard in some regions and virtually as privateers in others, this could be a very uncomfortable development.

Maybe consideration needs to be given to reroling the second six OPVs as MCM and hydrographic vessels, cancelling the six capes, and acquiring a more capable minor combatant for our northern waters. It also occurs to me that this is the sort of scenario where the proposed island hoping army anti shipping missiles could be valuable.

Sort of brings back the 2010 DWP aspiration to be able to rip the arm off a super power aggressor in our region.

 

[Stampede]

Considering the PRC uses their fishing fleet as a defacto coast guard in some regions and virtually as privateers in others, this could be a very uncomfortable development.

Maybe consideration needs to be given to reroling the second six OPVs as MCM and hydrographic vessels, cancelling the six capes, and acquiring a more capable minor combatant for our northern waters. It also occurs to me that this is the sort of scenario where the proposed island hoping army anti shipping missiles could be valuable.

Sort of brings back the 2010 DWP aspiration to be able to rip the arm off a super power aggressor in our region.

Suggest it will be interesting to watch how the Arafura Class is employed and evolves.
Equally this will apply to the suggested MCM / Survey replacements for a class of up to eight vessels.
Add to this mix the additional 6 Cape Class to compliment Navy's two in service vessels.

What we end up with in 2030 may look very different to what is currently proposed for the inshore / off shore patrol fleet and survey / MCM force.
What's ordered / suggested / in production / quantity / of each respective class and what it carry's in weapons and systems will I suggest evolve dramatically and quickly as our strategic world develops.

Well at least I hope so.
Fingers crossed



Regards S

 

[DDG38]

Meanwhile in the working Navy : "(L-R) HMA Ships Sydney, Brisbane, and Hobart leave Sydney Harbour to conduct sea trials off the east coast of Australia, the first time the Hobart-class Destroyers have exercised together." Image sourge - ADF Image Library linky

 

[hauritz]

Suggest it will be interesting to watch how the Arafura Class is employed and evolves.
Equally this will apply to the suggested MCM / Survey replacements for a class of up to eight vessels.
Add to this mix the additional 6 Cape Class to compliment Navy's two in service vessels.

What we end up with in 2030 may look very different to what is currently proposed for the inshore / off shore patrol fleet and survey / MCM force.
What's ordered / suggested / in production / quantity / of each respective class and what it carry's in weapons and systems will I suggest evolve dramatically and quickly as our strategic world develops.

Well at least I hope so.
Fingers crossed

Regards S

The navy's plans for the Arafura class seem even more modest than I first thought. I always knew that it had a modest weapons fit but now it seems that its admittedly limited aviation capability has also been stripped back.

According to this article the navy has removed the necessary deck strengthening from the design, meaning that it cannot even land Seahawk or MRH 90 sized helicopters.

NoCookies | The Australian

www.theaustralian.com.au

All the evidence I have read so far suggests that the Arafura is what it is ... a cheap OPV.

This ship could yet represent an opportunity missed to build the more capable OCV foreshadowed a decade ago.

 

[spoz]

That is a singularly rambling article which just seems to be pushing the author’s favourite barrows - there was never an intent to fit any missikes, it is not anywhere near the CONOPS of the ships. And I’m still scratching my head about what the future directions of the USN have to do with RAN OPVs. I would not say it is exactly the best source for future RAN intentions.

 

[Redlands18]

That is a singularly rambling article which just seems to be pushing the author’s favourite barrows - there was never an intent to fit any missikes, it is not anywhere near the CONOPS of the ships. And I’m still scratching my head about what the future directions of the USN have to do with RAN OPVs. I would not say it is exactly the best source for future RAN intentions.

And completely ignores the fact that they are a massive improvement over the proceeding Fremantle and Armidale classes. Ignores the fact that they can still operate UAVs and probably land lighter Helicopters such as the A-135 trg Helo and the upcoming light SF Helo.

 

[DDG38]

NoCookies | The Australian

www.theaustralian.com.au

Given the author of the article has heavy involvement with various Defence industry companies and roles being a political staffer, this article just smells of barrow pushing to get the government to over arm vessels that have no need to be. The Attacks, Fremantles and Armidales did not carry a helo or ASMs. Because it's not part of their CONOPs. I know it's a Murdoch rag but jeezus.

 

[SteveR]

Best explanation as to why the first tranche of Attack class SSKs will not have lithium batteries or AIP:

https://adbr.partica.online/adbr/adbr-nov-dec-2020/flipbook/28/

Namely the fire safety spacing required between Li batteries reduces their power density to about the same as latest conventional batteries. Also once an AIP has used up its oxygen or other special fuel its just dead weight and space.

 

[Stampede]

The navy's plans for the Arafura class seem even more modest than I first thought. I always knew that it had a modest weapons fit but now it seems that its admittedly limited aviation capability has also been stripped back.

According to this article the navy has removed the necessary deck strengthening from the design, meaning that it cannot even land Seahawk or MRH 90 sized helicopters.

NoCookies | The Australian

www.theaustralian.com.au

All the evidence I have read so far suggests that the Arafura is what it is ... a cheap OPV.

This ship could yet represent an opportunity missed to build the more capable OCV foreshadowed a decade ago.

The Arafura Class is an emotive topic.

What is it / What should it be / What could it be.

My personnel view is it was a wasted opportunity.
A great choice to replace the Fremantle Class Class and be what the Armadale's and the generations before them could never be.
A true off shore patrol vessel.
The Arafura Class would of been appropriate in 2005; but as history shows we went for yet another small patrol boat.
Come the 2016 DWP, we get clarity that the over worked Armadale's are now finally to be replaced with a true OPV.
"Hooray"
The RAN and the Commonwealth finally get what we should of had ages ago.

But there's a catch.

We now go to select an OPV with the "cultural mindset" of having operated three generations of patrol boats and view this new vessel as an extension of their previous roles, but now with the benefit of longer range and sea keeping.

It was not a smart call in 2016 and one made worse in a world that has changed so dramatically in the last few years.

We should of selected a vessel that could do all the constabulary stuff and much, much more.

The big variable is China.
The staggering rate of growth of its Navy and the accompanying robust behaviour of its antagonistic leadership is frightening.
They are building a RAN every year and more.................Mind boggling construction.
Add to the mix our main ally in the USA is domestically challenged, does not help our situation.

It's a very different world to a short time ago.

The reality is, that the Arafura Class are completely out of date before the first vessel hits the water.
A good Skills / job creation exercise that I don't disagree with, but that's it.

So what is the Arafura Class.............I'd suggest a good budget vessel for off shore duties in a benign environment that would be appropriate for another era.

What should it be........................A more robust up gunned vessel with integrated helicopter hanger and flight deck ...........Not the Arafura Class!

What could it be....................... Working with the decision we acquired the Arafura Class, it should be better armed within the limitations of the Arafura's space and weight.
Alternatively seek a way to enlarge the existing design with a block extension to provide space for additional weapons / systems.

These ships are in the infancy of their build cycle so there is much opportunity to evolve their capability ASAP.

As to the flight deck, there are two problems.
One - we cannot at this stage land a medium helicopter on the flight deck !!!!!!!!!!!!!
Two - we have a Navy leadership making absolutely appalling decisions, if this was in fact their call.

The flight can be fixed, but can we fix the culture that allowed this to happen in the first place.
A lot of maritime challenges ahead within our region for the 2020's

We need a fleet properly equipped to meet these challenges.



Regards S

 

[old faithful]

Would the radar and weapon systems already fitted to the Arafura allow a quick integration with NSM and or ESS/CAAM?
Thinking with the current climate, it wouldn’t be such a bad idea to design these ships to be fitted out if things heated up, you know with the chatter about fish processing plants in Daru etc

 

[ASSAIL]

Would the radar and weapon systems already fitted to the Arafura allow a quick integration with NSM and or ESS/CAAM?
Thinking with the current climate, it wouldn’t be such a bad idea to design these ships to be fitted out if things heated up, you know with the chatter about fish processing plants in Daru etc

SAAB’s 9LV combat system will be fitted so I would assume that upgrading weapons to those currently fitted in other RAN platforms would be a relatively easy task

Next generation 9LV Situational Awarness System for Australian offshore patrol vessels