John Fedup
The Bunker Group
The upgraded US version of the LAV has a new turret for the 30 mm gun, a cost that our government didn't want.
Canadian Army
- Thread starter Novascotiaboy
- Start date
Nope. Not an issue of cost. It was an issue of availability. The 30mm gun on the Stryker is still only a concept, and has not been fielded (Army to outfit Double V-Hull Strykers with 30mm firepower).
The LAV UP program (or, LAV 6.0) started 6 years ago.
That's interesting then, because the NZ Army are starting a project to investigate whether to upgrade or replace the NZLAV (LAVIII). With the Aussie Army going to the 30 mm gun, & if the NZ Army decides to upgrade the NZLAV to the LAV 6.0 capability, it will have the 30 mm turret option open to it.
And maybe even a 35mm, which is reputed to be the preferred Canadian Army option for a LAV Upgun. Bushmaster III has been mentioned as the most obvious candidate.
On a related note, the LAV 6.0 made the shortlist in a recent Japanese competition to replace the Type 96 8-wheeled APC: https://www.armyrecognition.com/sep..._for_replacement_of_japanese_type_96_apc.html
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
After 100+ years, another WW1 soldier has been found and identified. Sad that it took so long but amazing that technology exists to do this.
www.canada.ca
Newfoundland soldier of the First World War identified
The Department of National Defence and the Canadian Armed Forces have identified the remains of Private John Lambert, a First World War soldier of The Newfoundland Regiment. Private Lambert died on August 16, 1917, at the age of 17. The Newfoundland Regiment is perpetuated by The Royal...
It is, but now he has a known grave to be remembered by and for family to visit. My great uncle still lies in an unknown grave somewhere upon Chunuk Bair in Gallipoli.After 100+ years, another WW1 soldier has been found and identified. Sad that it took so long but amazing that technology exists to do this.
Newfoundland soldier of the First World War identified
The Department of National Defence and the Canadian Armed Forces have identified the remains of Private John Lambert, a First World War soldier of The Newfoundland Regiment. Private Lambert died on August 16, 1917, at the age of 17. The Newfoundland Regiment is perpetuated by The Royal...
E kore rātou e kaumātuatia
Pēnei i a tātou kua mahue nei
E kore hoki rātou e ngoikore
Ahakoa pehea i ngā āhuatanga o te wā
I te hekenga atu o te rā
Tae noa ki te aranga mai i te ata
Ka maumahara tonu tātou ki a rātou
Ka maumahara tonu tātou ki a rātou.
They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old:
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun, and in the morning,
We will remember them
We will remember them.
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
@Calculus ....just a follow up on the sniper rifle issue started (incorrectly by me in the RCN thread
). The economy of scale point is valid and explains some of the price difference, $15,000 per rifle. However how many sniper rifles (G-28 version) would we ever buy? Even if we needed 1,500, a direct order to HK surely would be a better plan than a dedicated production line. I understand the the value of producing other higher volume weapons in Canada. Perhaps there should a volume range that directs whether local or foreign sourcing should be mandated.
). The economy of scale point is valid and explains some of the price difference, $15,000 per rifle. However how many sniper rifles (G-28 version) would we ever buy? Even if we needed 1,500, a direct order to HK surely would be a better plan than a dedicated production line. I understand the the value of producing other higher volume weapons in Canada. Perhaps there should a volume range that directs whether local or foreign sourcing should be mandated.@Calculus ....just a follow up on the sniper rifle issue started (incorrectly by me in the RCN thread
Canadian military to get new sniper rifles
Canadian military sniper teams will be getting new rifles with the first expected to be delivered in the fall.
ottawacitizen.com
Well there are some signs the government might be improving the process, even if slowly. The latest small order acquisition for 229 C21 rifles will be a competition rather than going directly to Colt Canada. They say they evaluate whether an order with Colt Canada or a competition provides better value for each procurement, but cynically, especially with the state of the economy, I wouldn't be surprised if future acquisitions continue to heavily favour Colt Canada with headlines focusing on the creation and maintenance of Canadian jobs rather than the cost.
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
Doesn’t PGW make a decent bolt action sniper rifle with 7.62 mm and .338 caliber versions? For 200-300 units, a reasonable alternative vendor surely?Canadian military to get new sniper rifles
Canadian military sniper teams will be getting new rifles with the first expected to be delivered in the fall.
Well there are some signs the government might be improving the process, even if slowly. The latest small order acquisition for 229 C21 rifles will be a competition rather than going directly to Colt Canada. They say they evaluate whether an order with Colt Canada or a competition provides better value for each procurement, but cynically, especially with the state of the economy, I wouldn't be surprised if future acquisitions continue to heavily favour Colt Canada with headlines focusing on the creation and maintenance of Canadian jobs rather than the cost.
It's a good point, but in the grand scheme of things, these contracts are peanuts compared to fighters and frigates, so the "savings" that can be had by buying directly from the manufacturer are piddling compared to the overall DND Capital budget. It will be interesting to see what they do with the new pistols (to replace the Inglis HPs), the requirement reputed to be somewhere between 15-20,000 (Between 15,000 and 20,000 new handguns are to be ordered for Canadian military). Originally the requirement was for a domestic build, and on the face of it that would make sense, from a strategic standpoint, but apparently the main contenders (Glock, SIG, and CZ) have all balked at handing over their technical data packages to Colt, so the GoC may be forced to drop its requirement for build in Canada. I'm told this all got much more complicated when Colt bought Diemaco. No one wanted the American parent to have access to their IP...@Calculus ....just a follow up on the sniper rifle issue started (incorrectly by me in the RCN thread
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I agree, it would make sense, and hopefully that's what happens, but unless they can justify a sole-source procurement, they still need to run an open competition, so who knows.
PGW Defence Technologies Inc.
The world's premiere manufacturer of sniper weapons systems and accessories. Marketed worldwide and proven in combat, training and competition.
pgwdti.com
I believe the C21 is supposed to replace the current C14 Timberwolf made by PGW so the Army may be looking for something else.
Terran
Well-Known Member
It should be said that we are not just talking about the weapons themselves. These contracts almost always include scopes both day and night, scope rings and mounts, bipod, suppressor, spare magazines, ballistics calculators, spotter scope, slings, rifle case, concealment kit for the rifle.
the C20 appears to be a composite rifle a Colt M.A.R.C. 901 lower mated to a licensed LMT MRR-L upper receiver group, LMT stock and Geissele SSA Dual-Stage Trigger, American defense bipod and OSS QD suppressor. I haven’t read anything about scope yet.
Sniper rifles come in two kinds, build to order deals customized off sports rifles bespoke or factory built. IE the Timberwolf, M40 series, M24 series, Mk13.
or alternatively and especially in the last few years factory built scratch designed tactical sniper rifles IE Accuracy International, Barret MRAD, DSR-1, Desert tech.
The former tends to cost more as it often involves hand fitted and one off parts designed just to meet the needs of the service or end user. The latter often is cheaper to a degree but offers less true custom and more modules, more of a made to made based of existing options deal.
Sidearms are a different deal. They fall into a category where 90% of their users can’t milk every bit of accuracy out of them like a sniper can. As such it’s less expensive entry point with good enough being well good enough. Colt Canada and colt haven’t made a sidearm other than the 1911that has been suited for mass service issue in a long time. The few issue they have were meant for special service issue. MARSOC and even then have pretty much been replaced by Glock. Personally I think if Canada wants a new sidearm drop the made in Canada bit. More than enough production capacity just south of the boarder. Heck a couple hours truck ride will get Sig pistols into Canada from New Hampshire. Existing lines, existing production.
the C20 appears to be a composite rifle a Colt M.A.R.C. 901 lower mated to a licensed LMT MRR-L upper receiver group, LMT stock and Geissele SSA Dual-Stage Trigger, American defense bipod and OSS QD suppressor. I haven’t read anything about scope yet.
Sniper rifles come in two kinds, build to order deals customized off sports rifles bespoke or factory built. IE the Timberwolf, M40 series, M24 series, Mk13.
or alternatively and especially in the last few years factory built scratch designed tactical sniper rifles IE Accuracy International, Barret MRAD, DSR-1, Desert tech.
The former tends to cost more as it often involves hand fitted and one off parts designed just to meet the needs of the service or end user. The latter often is cheaper to a degree but offers less true custom and more modules, more of a made to made based of existing options deal.
Sidearms are a different deal. They fall into a category where 90% of their users can’t milk every bit of accuracy out of them like a sniper can. As such it’s less expensive entry point with good enough being well good enough. Colt Canada and colt haven’t made a sidearm other than the 1911that has been suited for mass service issue in a long time. The few issue they have were meant for special service issue. MARSOC and even then have pretty much been replaced by Glock. Personally I think if Canada wants a new sidearm drop the made in Canada bit. More than enough production capacity just south of the boarder. Heck a couple hours truck ride will get Sig pistols into Canada from New Hampshire. Existing lines, existing production.
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
Yes, interesting situation wrt the handgun replacement. There is zero chance for export of Canadian licensed hand guns IMO that would be competitive against the major vendors, even in the unlikely event they would license their designs to Colt Canada. GoC should never have allowed the acquisition of Diemaco if they wanted a company that could obtain license manufacturing in Canada, again IMO.
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
Contract some Toronto gangbangers and you can get quick delivery and good prices or just get confiscated handguns from the Toronto police for free.
True, but then the government would have to go against its very own Munitions Supply Program (Munitions Supply Program – Electronics, munitions and tactical systems - Defence Procurement - Buying and Selling - PSPC Services - Home), which stipulates domestic manufacturing capability for ammunition and small arms. However, as @Albedo pointed out in post 28 above, they may be looking at doing this anyway, so perhaps that program is on its way out...
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Totally agree.
Interesting. Wonder why? They only entered service in 2005, and I think they just ran a program to modernize the C14? It's supposedly an excellent rifle. I believe it was even used by the British SAS in Afghanistan. CANADIAN C14 TIMBERWOLF - Sniper Central
Canadian Army to acquire new multi-calibre sniper weapons
There has been talk among Canadian defence industry representatives about a project to acquire a new C21 multi-calibre sniper rifle.
ottawacitizen.com
Maybe I'm reading too much into things. The Army is looking for a rifle that can switch between .338 LM and 7.62 mm. That they're running a competition for new rifles rather than just modifying/upgrading their existing C14 suggests that they are looking for something other than a new PGW Timberwolf variant. I have no idea what concerns the Army have with the C14 though.
Terran
Well-Known Member
Sniper rifles have changed in the last few decades like many other rifles. Back in 05 Timberwolf was based off a hunting rifle. It was built to the norm of the time as well and is exceptionally accurate although also frankly conservative to the point of being anachronistic. Although it has 1913 rails they are only really for the scope. It has a fiberglass stock which was also the norm for many rifles of the time. Yet since then a number of things have changed. Aluminum chassis systems existed in 05. Accuracy international made them as far back as the late 80s yet today they are the standard and more evolved. Rail interfaces have evolved and today cover the length of the hand guard where in the past it was just under the scope at the top of the receiver and maybe a triple assembly bolted at the forward end of the stock. This allows longer scopes or additional systems like long range electro optics.
The aluminum mounted bedding rather than the glass system means that stocks can fold and adjust are easily replaced or repaired.
Farther more the aluminum chassis allows for rapid change of both barrel and bolt as well as magazine. what this means is in essence the only part of the rifle that hasn’t changed is the trigger mechanism, yet even that has been modularized.
Meaning that a modern sniper rifle isn’t restricted to just one caliber, the latest from AI, Armalite, Barrett, Blazer,FN, PGM, Sako, and Desert tech are limited only by what parts you buy. That might not seem a huge deal. In operations certainly not likely to be used. But in entry training and selection 7.62x51mm is cheaper and easier to learn on that .338LM.
Put another way. These modern rifles are limited only to their function they can be built like lego toys. Mixed and matched to assemble new weapons. If you compare these to the Timberwolf the only parts you might carry over are perhaps the bolt, and scope. Modified barrel. If that’s the case it’s a Thesis Ship paradox.
The same thing happened to the US Army M24 rifle improvement program.They started with trying to upgrade the rifle first with a box magazine, then suppressor, then up caliber to .300winmag then new stock they realized by then though it wasn’t an M24E anymore. It was a new rifle
The aluminum mounted bedding rather than the glass system means that stocks can fold and adjust are easily replaced or repaired.
Farther more the aluminum chassis allows for rapid change of both barrel and bolt as well as magazine. what this means is in essence the only part of the rifle that hasn’t changed is the trigger mechanism, yet even that has been modularized.
Meaning that a modern sniper rifle isn’t restricted to just one caliber, the latest from AI, Armalite, Barrett, Blazer,FN, PGM, Sako, and Desert tech are limited only by what parts you buy. That might not seem a huge deal. In operations certainly not likely to be used. But in entry training and selection 7.62x51mm is cheaper and easier to learn on that .338LM.
Put another way. These modern rifles are limited only to their function they can be built like lego toys. Mixed and matched to assemble new weapons. If you compare these to the Timberwolf the only parts you might carry over are perhaps the bolt, and scope. Modified barrel. If that’s the case it’s a Thesis Ship paradox.
The same thing happened to the US Army M24 rifle improvement program.They started with trying to upgrade the rifle first with a box magazine, then suppressor, then up caliber to .300winmag then new stock they realized by then though it wasn’t an M24E anymore. It was a new rifle
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