Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

[Redlands18]

I don't think most people really care if you call the hunters frigates or destroyers, as long as they are capable.

It seems like they will be. I am curious why there are these leaks about them becoming oversized, or delayed. If they go over 10,000t, won't this exceed the lift capacity of the shiplift at Osborne?

Can't we just start building uk spec type 26's, worst case? That would make more sense that some new design, or trying to build more hobarts.

The 10,000t will be full load Displacement, not the dead weight of ship that is still being fitted out at the time of launching, with no Fuel, Ammo and a fair bit of hardware still to be fitted the weight would have to be significantly less.

 

[vonnoobie]

Not so worried about the shiplift considering it was designed to allow expansion to 210m and 20,000 ton lift capacity in case people forgot.

At the end of the day we are too far down the rabbit hole to even consider an interim measure as any such measures will take years in their own right to get ready to build for as pointed out will be an orphan class. Let's stick with the Hunters as is and not jump the gun and make things worse because of an OH S**T moment.

32 VLS might seem small but it is a 300% increase in cells over the Anzacs. The cells on every Anzac class we have are equal to just 2 hunters, that is 7 more ships with 32 cells each in extra missile capacity.

We are where we are, much as we might want to be in a better position it just can't be done in the realistic world so not trying to sound rude but just deal with it people.

 

[John Fedup]

Not sure if this link has been posted here before. It is a discussion about Arafura build strategy and how it will be a template for future programs (Hunter, Attack). As for implications for Canada, with our dysfunctional procurement some of the innovations are likely to be opposed by vested players here.

14823-RAN-Offshore-Patrol-Vessel| FrontLine Defence

defence.frontline.online

 

[Volkodav]

Our very recently introduced class of destroyers have 48 VLS cells. The Hunters will have 32. There is zero chance of being able to convince Government that a third class is required, with what they would see as, and really is, marginally different armament, so soon after they have received the considered advice of all departments involved, not just Defence, leading to a decision that the capabilities required are those of the Hunters.

I’m afraid that, even if we wanted to, we could not now build more Hobarts - to coin a phrase, that ship has sailed.

Well the Germans, Danes and Dutch seem perfectly satisfied with 32 cells for their air warfare ships.

 

[vonnoobie]

Don't worry about cell numbers. Out of the 350+ frigates in the world only like 106 carry 32 cells or more and about two thirds of the ships carry only a single short range SAM in each cell compared to the mk41 being able to quad pack them. Only a global scale 32 is in the top of the pack.

 

[hairyman]

Are we going to have ASROC on our ships? Is'nt the ASROC based on the Australian torpedo carrying rocket, was it the Jindivik?

 

[Boagrius]

I suspect you're thinking of Ikara, but AFAIK that was a different system to ASROC.

 

[Redlands18]

Are we going to have ASROC on our ships? Is'nt the ASROC based on the Australian torpedo carrying rocket, was it the Jindivik?

https://www.navy.gov.au/aircraft/gaf-jindivik-pilotless-target-aircraft

The Jindivik was a target Drone developed by Australia and the UK in the early 50s served with the RAN till 1998,

 

[ASSAIL]

https://www.navy.gov.au/aircraft/gaf-jindivik-pilotless-target-aircraft

The Jindivik was a target Drone developed by Australia and the UK in the early 50s served with the RAN till 1998,

The Ikara missile was developed from the wire guided Malkara and Jindivick missiles. It carried either the Mk44 or Mk46 ASW torpedoes.
The advantage Ikara had over ASROC was twofold, firstly it had for greater range, out to 22,000yds and second but more important it could be guided in flight from either the host ship sonar data but more likely and useful, from helo dipping sonar via data links. This sounds ordinary today but in the 60’s and 70’s it was a great advance.
In a standard ASW Screen employing surface ships and helos the helos were usually deployed between 12nm-15nm Well ahead/away from the main body so Ikara’s range and data capability was a real advantage compared with ASROC of the days 12,000 yd max
The disadvantage over say MATCH however was that once fired there was no aborted engagement if contact was lost.
Luckily the Ikara magazines were large enough to cope with the problem.

 

[Stampede]

The Ikara missile was developed from the wire guided Malkara and Jindivick missiles. It carried either the Mk44 or Mk46 ASW torpedoes.
The advantage Ikara had over ASROC was twofold, firstly it had for greater range, out to 22,000yds and second but more important it could be guided in flight from either the host ship sonar data but more likely and useful, from helo dipping sonar via data links. This sounds ordinary today but in the 60’s and 70’s it was a great advance.
In a standard ASW Screen employing surface ships and helos the helos were usually deployed between 12nm-15nm Well ahead/away from the main body so Ikara’s range and data capability was a real advantage compared with ASROC of the days 12,000 yd max
The disadvantage over say MATCH however was that once fired there was no aborted engagement if contact was lost.
Luckily the Ikara magazines were large enough to cope with the problem.

Makes one wonder if into the future a similar approach could be reinvented.
Ship launched Torpedo for extra long range with UAV providing target acquisition and guidance support.
What's old is new?
A compliment to the Romeo's ASW helicopter not a replacement.
A modern incarnation of a winged Ikara may get out to the 100 km range.
If I understand the wings where clipped to the main structure for flight. Should not be too big a challenge building a bigger unit to gain distance.
May make a hostile submarine or ship the hunted not the hunter.
A possibility combination for employment in ships much smaller then an ANZAC.

Thoughts


Regards S

 

[DDG38]

The other great thing about Ikara was once they were removed from the DDGs the magazines made great gyms and rabbit storage.

 

[spoz]

Ikara took up a fair bit of space in a ship, and, even if some way was found to sort the wings out, wouldn’t go near fittimg in a Mk 41. It was a great system for its time but the world has moved on. However, the concept could undoubtedly be modernised if anybody wanted to.

 

[alexsa]

Ikara took up a fair bit of space in a ship, and, even if some way was found to sort the wings out, wouldn’t go near fittimg in a Mk 41. It was a great system for its time but the world has moved on. However, the concept could undoubtedly be modernised if anybody wanted to.

They did attempt a canister launched version. However, the increased prevalence of shipborne helicopter capability with the FFG (and the loss of the carrier and the Sea King in the ASW role) put pay to that idea and these developments ceased.

ADF-Serials Image Gallery :: GAF Ikara :: Folding_Wing_Box_launched_version_1

www.adf-gallery.com.au

ADF-Serials Image Gallery :: GAF Ikara :: Folding_Wing_Box_launched_version_2

www.adf-gallery.com.au

ADF-Serials Image Gallery :: GAF Ikara :: Folding_Wing_Box_launched_version_3

www.adf-gallery.com.au

According to the DST web site the fact that the missile was not updated caused it to be increasingly expensive to maintain resulted in it being withdrawn from service in 1991. It was a great system for its time.

Ikara

Ikara was an Australian-designed ship-borne long-range anti-submarine guided weapon that was developed for the Royal Australian Navy (RAN) and achieved international recognition.

www.dst.defence.gov.au

 

[swerve]

Ikara took up a fair bit of space in a ship, and, even if some way was found to sort the wings out, wouldn’t go near fittimg in a Mk 41. It was a great system for its time but the world has moved on. However, the concept could undoubtedly be modernised if anybody wanted to.

You mean like Milas?
MILAS - MBDA

 

[hairyman]

Would it be feasible to produce a modern Ikara, or has the horse bolted?

 

[ASSAIL]

Would it be feasible to produce a modern Ikara, or has the horse bolted?

You’re correct, the horse has bolted.
There are a number of modern equivalents such as MILAS mentioned above but the most numerous missile is the RUM 139 VL ASROC used by the USN and JMSDF.
This is and improved version using a two stage rocket with inertial guidance and improved range out to 24,000yds
The great drawback with IKARA was the large and complex handling and storage infrastructure which ultimately led to its demise.
The great advantage of modern ASROC is that it can be fitted into the Mk41 VLS
RUM-139 VL-ASROC vertical launched anti submarine rocket

 

[StingrayOZ]

MILAS is something perhaps we could look into as we are already operators of the MU90, and I don't think it will fit into normal VLS, but could be fitted replacing harpoon box launchers. OTOMAT gives the Italians to use it for anti surface or anti submarine with the same box launcher.

But the ASROC would fit into existing mk41 cells. OTOMAT isn't ideal IMO because its a bit of a generation behind, not really stealthy, or particularly long ranged. I quite like the rectangular squircle VLS. I wonder if in the future if someone may want to create a rectangular VLS by effectively merging two VLS cells and taking out the dividing wall. Rocket boosters for cruise missiles and torpedo's could then be on the side of the missile body allowing additional length.

 

[vonnoobie]

MILAS is something perhaps we could look into as we are already operators of the MU90, and I don't think it will fit into normal VLS, but could be fitted replacing harpoon box launchers. OTOMAT gives the Italians to use it for anti surface or anti submarine with the same box launcher.

But the ASROC would fit into existing mk41 cells. OTOMAT isn't ideal IMO because its a bit of a generation behind, not really stealthy, or particularly long ranged. I quite like the rectangular squircle VLS. I wonder if in the future if someone may want to create a rectangular VLS by effectively merging two VLS cells and taking out the dividing wall. Rocket boosters for cruise missiles and torpedo's could then be on the side of the missile body allowing additional length.

Latest updates of it have low RCS and it is longer ranged then the ASROC by 13km or 59%. They also started designs around same time but with the otomate/Mila's going through more upgrades. So not exactly a decade behind but rather a system equal if not superior to ASROC while also potentially being a worthy consideration for the harpoon replacement.

 

[StingrayOZ]

The RAN certainly seemed quite forceful in getting MU90 which seems to indicate is a better gadget for Australia than the Mk54. On a rocket launched torpedo in air stealthiness I guess isn't at all important. I think the MILAS is certainly worth looking at.

I am less excited by OTOMAT, LRASM/NSM would seem to be more attractive in that space. I don't think not liking OTOMAT would exclude MILAS. I believe the Italians swap over the whole launcher rather than unloading and reloading on the ship. in that case get what ever combination works best.

I am curious how the British are very adamant about abandoning ship launched torpedo tubes on the Type 26. The belief that you must either have them rocket launched or on helo seems to be essential for them. The Italians, the British and the Japanese all seem to be very keen to develop beyond the ASROC basics. I assume for the US, they would intend to generally air drop torpedo's ASROC would be more of a last resort. Or maybe if they improved ASROC P8 numbers would come under additional pressure.

I still like the idea of torpedo tubes on the ship if possible, particularly for decoys or hard kill solutions. Bit of a layered defence. Ship launched, Ship launched rocket, helicopter launched, p8 launched.

 

[Boagrius]

I still like the idea of torpedo tubes on the ship if possible, particularly for decoys or hard kill solutions. Bit of a layered defence. Ship launched, Ship launched rocket, helicopter launched, p8 launched.

...and maybe UUV launched? Early days yet but it will be interesting to see how the mission bays on the Hunters get utilised. A lot of growth potential there in the ASW realm I would have thought.