The Indonesian Army

[Sandhi Yudha]

This news is now everywhere.

Indonesië mag MV-22 Block C Osprey's bestellen • Piloot & Vliegtuig

De exportcommissie van de Amerikaanse senaat heeft groen licht gegeven voor de verkoop van acht MV-22 Block C Osprey tiltrotor varianten aan de strijdkrachten van Indonesië.

www.pilootenvliegtuig.nl

Even with an artist impression of the TNI-AD MV-22B.

The V-22 Osprey Is Perfect For Indonesia And Now They Can Buy Them

For a country with 17,000 islands and unique national security concerns spread across them, the Osprey isn't cheap, but it will be a valuable tool.

www.thedrive.com

 

[Ananda]

What I am most curious about is whether the or not this will affect the Air Force's interest in the Chinook.

Personally I don't see the point for AF to operate heavy lift helicopters. Like the Germans, Luftwaffe did not operate heavy lift helicopters, but Bundeswher that operate.

For me it's just like Penerbad operate C-130 instead TNI AU, if we put the other way around. But, that's my personal opinion.
The AF should operate theater cargo operation from AB to AB, while field cargo operation should be handle by the Army, since it's their operation area.

For CSAR the Caracal and Super Puma that being operate by TNI-AU is enough. They should optimise that, since basically all AF helicoptersoperation in most of countries related to CSAR and AB support.

As your other points on sharing logistics support infrastructure, well each branch operate their own logistics and procurement. You know why their doing it..it's providing their own projects

Some times ago I heard initiatives by MinDef to centralised support service especially for common assets. However from what I heard each branch still then procured different assets, in order to justified their separate maintenance operation.

The logical ways is for MinDef standardise equipment especially the common ones, like transport aircraft (they begin do it with NC-212 and CN-235). This way it should able to create sharing services. However from what I heard the push more on politicall insistence on using DI products, rather on standardisation move.

Point is, separate procurement and maintenance infrastructure for each branch is lucrative business opportunities.
Let's just hope current MinDef can push the branches on more logically efficient and transparency ways.

 

[John Fedup]

Personally I don't see the point for AF to operate heavy lift helicopters. Like the Germans, Luftwaffe did not operate heavy lift helicopters, but Bundeswher that operate.

For me it's just like Penerbad operate C-130 instead TNI AU, if we put the other way around. But, that's my personal opinion. The AF should operate theater cargo operation from AB to AB, while field carho operation should be handle by the Army, since it's their operation area.

For CSAR the Caracal and Super Puma that being operate by TNI-AU is enough. They should optimise that, since basically all AF helicoptersoperation in most of countries related to CSAR and AB support.

In Canada, the RCAF operates army and navy aviation assets, probably less expensive to centralize aviation within one organization. Also, the army and navy budgets get a break.

 

[Ananda]

the RCAF operates army and navy aviation assets, probably less expensive to centralize aviation within one organization

Remind me of arguments between Italian Navy and Italian AF on whose allowed to operate Harrier on board Italian Navy Carrier.
Or, the back stage fight between RAF and Naval Air Command on whose should operate Harrier and F-35B on board the carriers.

The truth is there's always cat fight between Armed Forces branches around the world on operational flexibility, that justified their arguments for separate assets ownership.
Just like in Indonesia, the Army always maintain their ownership for relative large fixed wing cargo and rotary wing fleet, based on flexibility in the field operation.

They have some justification in there as, buraucratics problem within each branches, make it more flexibility in operation to maintain their own support assets.
Canadian example in my opinion can only happen if the organisational flexibility like some kind matrix's command can be installed and run smoothly. If not, then the infighting on field flexibility will always happen.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

In the Netherlands all helicopters, from the navy (Marineluchtvaartdienst) en airforce, are now part of the Defensie Helikopter Commando.

Bonusvideo....such a MV-22B in action is quite cool!

 

[John Fedup]

Remind me of arguments between Italian Navy and Italian AF on whose allowed to operate Harrier on board Italian Navy Carrier.
Or, the back stage fight between RAF and Naval Air Command on whose should operate Harrier and F-35B on board the carriers.

The truth is there's always cat fight between Armed Forces branches around the world on operational flexibility, that justified their arguments for separate assets ownership.
Just like in Indonesia, the Army always maintain their ownership for relative large fixed wing cargo and rotary wing fleet, based on flexibility in the field operation.

They have some justification in there as, buraucratics problem within each branches, make it more flexibility in operation to maintain their own support assets.
Canadian example in my opinion can only happen if the organisational flexibility like some kind matrix's command can be installed and run smoothly. If not, then the infighting on field flexibility will always happen.

Once the RCN lost their one carrier in 1968, they likely saw aviation as a costly burden better dumped on the RCAF. They ceased their own aviation operations in 1975. Armed forces unification by the Canadian government in 1968 made the decision to concentrate all aviation within the RCAF easier with limited service infighting.

 

[Ananda]

the Netherlands all helicopters, from the navy (Marineluchtvaartdienst) en airforce, are now part of the Defensie Helikopter Commando.

That's one of example that also has merit. However that's not being followed by other larger Euro nation like Germany, UK and French.

With larger countries, it's inevitably their going to be larger need, thus larger organization and that usually follow by one side effects that's larger bureaucracy.

If a country defense need to operate say 400-500 helicopters fleet to cater all their armed service branches need, then if centralised in one command, it's practically create new branch.
That's can create another bureaucratics problem, unless the command structure can be simplified.

For Indonesian Armed Forces, to make centralised shared assets command, well that need a lot of changes on organisational and cultural thinking.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

That's one of example that also has merit. However that's not being followed by other larger Euro nation like Germany, UK and French.

With larger countries, it's inevitably their going to be larger need, thus larger organization and that usually follow by one side effects that's larger bureaucracy.

If a country defense need to operate say 400-500 helicopters fleet to cater all their armed service branches need, then if centralised in one command, it's practically create new branch.
That's can create another bureaucratics problem, unless the command structure can be simplified.

For Indonesian Armed Forces, to make centralised shared assets command, well that need a lot of changes on organisational and cultural thinking.

In the Netherlands its done because after selling the P-3C Orions to Germany, the Marineluchtvaartdienst (Naval Aviation) only possessed the Westland Lynx (and later the NH-90). The army doesn't have any aircrafts in its inventory. So for the Netherlands it was a logic and cost effective solution.
For other countries like Indonesia such a joint helicopter command isn't practical at all.

 

[ChestnutTree]

Well if this $2,0 billion package is really complete with life time sustainment support (besides initial training and GSE also spareparts and heavy scheduled maintenance for 25-30 years) than it is understandable.

The V-22 is an aircraft with an accident history that has generated some controversy over its safety.

The V-22 Osprey had 12 hull loss accidents that resulted in a total of 42 fatalities. During testing from 1991 to 2006 there were four crashed resulting in 30 fatalities. Since becoming operational in 2007, the V-22 has had seven crashes including two combat-zone crashes, and several other accidents that resulted in a total of 12 fatalities. But looking to the amount of produced aircrafts, 400+, i think thats acceptable. And i also expect that the design is now matured after all these years, and with that it is as safe and reliable as other heavy helicopters like the Boeing-Vertol CH-47, Mi-26 and Sikorsky CH-53.

But one thing really surprises me, this announcement is so suddenly. All other large defence acquisitions have a long history of mass-media exposure and "politicians-talking-proudly-about-plans-to-put-the-items-on-their-wishlist-moments" to the press, long before a DSCA-approval announcement.

One more thing, the US operates the V-22 often with the M240 7,62 machine gun and also with the M134 / GAU-17/A, but according the DSCA-approval announcement, including the package is the GAU-21 machine guns, ive never heard about this one before.

Edit: the GAU-21 seems to be a 12,7 mm machinegun.

Anyway, this is just a DSCA-approval announcement, no any contracts are signed yet, let alone money transfered.

Just to clarify, the GAU-21 is the airborne version of the Browning M2.

FN® M3M (GAU-21) | FN® Firearms

An evolution of the M3 .50-caliber, it produces 1,100 rounds per minute cyclic rate of fire through an open-bolt operation and dual recoil buffer system.

fnamerica.com

Personally I find it pretty interesting, I'd expect them to be armed with either an M240 or an M134 since those two are far more commonly used in Army aviation. Pretty neat to see a new platform taken up.

 

[ngatimozart]

In the NZDF the RNZN own and operate their own helicopters, but the aircrew training and all the maintenance is done by the RNZAF. Whilst the squadron number is a RNZAF squadron number, it is a RNZN squadron.

Just to clarify, the GAU-21 is the airborne version of the Browning M2.

FN® M3M (GAU-21) | FN® Firearms

An evolution of the M3 .50-caliber, it produces 1,100 rounds per minute cyclic rate of fire through an open-bolt operation and dual recoil buffer system.

fnamerica.com

Personally I find it pretty interesting, I'd expect them to be armed with either an M240 or an M134 since those two are far more commonly used in Army aviation. Pretty neat to see a new platform taken up.

The M3M has been around for decades, but some militaries have replaced 7.62 mm weapons with them because of their longer reach. This is due to insurgents use of 7.62 mm weapons against helos.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

I do not understand everything in this article, but it seems that this interviewed person try to cool down all fanboys and that there are no serious plans yet to order the MV-22B. This is quite predictable, aftrr all no any serious negotiations were started, let alone any contracts signed.
This seems to be from the Kompas of today.

 

[Ananda]

I agree this is PR move to tone down the news, since we're still in COVID situation and big defense expenditure got critisize. Moreover many in local media still don't understand and can't differentiate the procurement with life time sustainment deal like this, and procurement on asset only like being used to do with Russian for example.

Few days ago one of Economics that I used to admire, talk in Media on something that I simply call 'stupid'. He says that we should cut defense budget more than 50%, since we don't have enemy. Forgoting how China encroachment to our EEZ, and their increase aggressiveness in the region.
I used to admire that guy since he's senior in my allmamater, but clearly now he's talking more on his politicall 'ass' then Economics reasoning that he used to do.

Point is, the MinDef need to cool down a bit, but does not mean they are not doing serious negotiations already. US DCSA will not provide announcement like that lightly. Those announcements already pass through some US politicall channel, which means it can only done if Indonesian side already shown serious intentions.

Not saying this will definitely pass to contractual phase as some more negotiations will happen.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

I agree this is PR move to tone down the news, since we're still in COVID situation and big defense expenditure got critisize. Moreover many in local media still don't understand and can't differentiate the procurement with life time sustainment deal like this, and procurement on asset only like being used to do with Russian for example.

Few days ago one of Economics that I used to admire, talk in Media on something that I simply call 'stupid'. He says that we should cut defense budget more than 50%, since we don't have enemy. Forgoting how China encroachment to our EEZ, and their increase aggressiveness in the region.
I used to admire that guy since he's senior in my allmamater, but clearly now he's talking more on his politicall 'ass' then Economics reasoning that he used to do.

Point is, the MinDef need to cool down a bit, but does not mean they are not doing serious negotiations already. US DCSA will not provide announcement like that lightly. Those announcements already pass through some US politicall channel, which means it can only done if Indonesian side already shown serious intentions.

Not saying this will definitely pass to contractual phase as some more negotiations will happen.

Well, that statement from the econoom can be classified as incredible stupid. Like he want to make people forget about the Nine Dash Line and what happen end december and januari in the Natuna Sea. Maybe he belongs to the Luhutgang, who wants to make TNI weaker and give all opportunities to a certain country to invest and control our economy.

Anyway, like you said such big defence acquisitions we can not expect this year.
I am still surprized that the MV-22B has become a candidate. After all the CH-47F is lower in price, battle proven and can handle more payload and troops. On the other hand the V-22 has superior speed and range.

Besides that TNI-AD also needs more AH-64Es, 8 is clearly not enough. So maybe a AH-64 + CH-47 mixture can be ordered instead.

 

[Ananda]

After all the CH-47F is lower in price, battle proven and can handle more payload and troops. On the other hand the V-22 has superior speed and range.

There's reports from some media, that the cost for procurement of 8 Apache by Indonesia is around USD 500 Mio. While the costs being stated by DCSA was around USD 1.6 bio (well other media say USD 1.4 bio).
Is DCSA wrong ? I kind think both figures are right.

USD 500 Mio is the procurement cost for Indonesia for those 8 Apache, while the USD 1.4 or 1.6 bio is the estimate with total life time sustainment cost.
Thus we can roughly predict that when DCSA talk about USD 2.0 bio as including sustainment cost, then the actual procurement only is around USD 600-700mio or around 1/3 of total cost. In such 2/3 of the costs talk by DCSA is for life time sustainment.
This kind of deal that many in Indonesian media or even those so call analyst don't understand.

For that if we talk USD 600-700 mio for actual procurement of 8 MV-22, then actually it's reasonable for MV-22.
Again if we talk CH-47 then the cost will not much differ especially if we talk total sustainment cost.

One other thing, whether it's MV-22 or CH-47, those are assets that TNI has not use before. Thus as first time users, the total sustainment cost will be much higher compared if the buy second batch later on.

 

[John Fedup]

What exactly does the Indonesian army see in the MV-22 that would warrant the extra cost of this platform compared to helicopters wrt to their CONOPS? Speed and range advantages are great but where will these advantages prove important from an Indonesian perspective? Just asking.

 

[ChestnutTree]

I would say island hopping and being optimized for maritime missions comes to mind. Also the fact that Bell has a strong working relationship with PTDI likely affected the decision.

 

[tonnyc]

What exactly does the Indonesian army see in the MV-22 that would warrant the extra cost of this platform compared to helicopters wrt to their CONOPS? Speed and range advantages are great but where will these advantages prove important from an Indonesian perspective? Just asking.

Good question. The Ministry of Defense says they have never asked for Osprey specifically. Now, the link below is in Indonesian but Google Translate should give you the gist.

Kemhan Klarifikasi Isu Pembelian Pesawat MV-22 Osprey

Amerika Serikat menyatakan menyetujui kemungkinan penjualan pesawat MV-22 Block C Osprey kepada pemerintah Indonesia. Kementerian Pertahanan membantahnya.

m.detik.com

The likely explanation is that Indonesia requested a heavy lift vertical take off aircraft without specifying a specific model of a helicopter (but the usual guess is the Chinook) and Boeing interpreted the specs requested as fitting the Osprey more than the Chinook. Without looking at how the request is worded it's impossible to determine if it is indeed what's happened, but keep in mind that the Chinook and Osprey are both made by Boeing Vertol.

 

[Ananda]

Today in his cabinet meeting, Jokowi talk about Defense Procurement (he's specifically put defense procurement as example) has to involve local defense Industry.
His massage on buy local actually for his whole Cabinet, but his put defense procurement as example in my opinion related to the news of this MV-22 offer from DCSA.

He also mentioned that his massage on this, already understood by Prabowo (Defense Minister). For me, this's clear emphasis massage on to whoever going to supply defense items to Indonesia, has to involve Indonesian Defense Industry.

Thus on the matter of MV-22, eventough Boeing is also co producer with Bell, but I see the Bell involvement more. After all Bell is the long term partner with DI.
I'm just speculating that DI perhaps not going to be offer work share on MV-22 (for example), but Bell could be offering DI as part of their global supply chain, thus provide work share on DI with other products.

Off course it can also be Boeing that also going to provide DI with work share in Global Supply Chain. Whatever it is, either Bell or Boeing or perhaps both of them have to include DI with some kind supplier supply chain work share. This way the involvement of local defense industry can be full fill. This for deal of either MV-22 for CH-47 or any other products.

On Indonesian AF thread, I already mentioned that thing will be difficult to follow by Russian Industry (on case of Su-35). In fact so far no deal with Russia on defense procurement, has involved local Industry. Let alone work share, even maintenance and service no local Industry being involved. Either way, it will be difficult for Russian to include DI on global supply chain, considering their Industry is not in efficient scale enough to do that.

LM involvement with DI on conducting service for current F-16 MLU, can also be seen LM willingness to involve DI on work sharing and tech transfer.
Jokowi off course know that DI can't provide all products needed for Indonesian aviation whether Army, Navy or Air Force. His message is again in my opinion more to make sure Indonesian Industry getting some share of the deals.

Indonesian MinDef already put the need for Heavyweight Vertical Take Off assets, If Airbus has that kind of products, I'm sure they are going to enter with some kind of deal with DI too. Again that's why I say for some time, never underestimate the lobby power of DI partners.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Today in his cabinet meeting, Jokowi talk about Defense Procurement (he's specifically put defense procurement as example) has to involve local defense Industry.
His massage on buy local actually for his whole Cabinet, but his put defense procurement as example in my opinion related to the news of this MV-22 offer from DCSA.

He also mentioned that his massage on this, already understood by Prabowo (Defense Minister). For me, this's clear emphasis massage on to whoever going to supply defense items to Indonesia, has to involve Indonesian Defense Industry.

Thus on the matter of MV-22, eventough Boeing is also co producer with Bell, but I see the Bell involvement more. After all Bell is the long term partner with DI.
I'm just speculating that DI perhaps not going to be offer work share on MV-22 (for example), but Bell could be offering DI as part of their global supply chain, thus provide work share on DI with other products.

Off course it can also be Boeing that also going to provide DI with work share in Global Supply Chain. Whatever it is, either Bell or Boeing or perhaps both of them have to include DI with some kind supplier supply chain work share. This way the involvement of local defense industry can be full fill. This for deal of either MV-22 for CH-47 or any other products.

On Indonesian AF thread, I already mentioned that thing will be difficult to follow by Russian Industry (on case of Su-35). In fact so far no deal with Russia on defense procurement, has involved local Industry. Let alone work share, even maintenance and service no local Industry being involved. Either way, it will be difficult for Russian to include DI on global supply chain, considering their Industry is not in efficient scale enough to do that.

LM involvement with DI on conducting service for current F-16 MLU, can also be seen LM willingness to involve DI on work sharing and tech transfer.
Jokowi off course know that DI can't provide all products needed for Indonesian aviation whether Army, Navy or Air Force. His message is again in my opinion more to make sure Indonesian Industry getting some share of the deals.

Indonesian MinDef already put the need for Heavyweight Vertical Take Off assets, If Airbus has that kind of products, I'm sure they are going to enter with some kind of deal with DI too. Again that's why I say for some time, never underestimate the lobby power of DI partners.

Europe has not a real heavy helicopter to offer. Eurocopter's NH-90 is inferieur in almost everything compared to the EC725, and Agusta-Westland's EH-101 is not such a great improvement. Besides that, we all know how the EH-101 acquisition ended up with the air force. (Looks like the airforce want to keep the sole EH-101 hidden in the hangar and close silently this case.)

And about the Su-35 saga.
Well, the Russians need to buy a lot of palm oil, textile and other products to make a chance to sell the Su-35. They also can order some LPDs from PAL, after all they need a lot of new LPDs the coming years, and those Project 11711 ships are not enough. But i dont think this scenario will ever happen.

 

[Redlands18]

Good question. The Ministry of Defense says they have never asked for Osprey specifically. Now, the link below is in Indonesian but Google Translate should give you the gist.

Kemhan Klarifikasi Isu Pembelian Pesawat MV-22 Osprey

Amerika Serikat menyatakan menyetujui kemungkinan penjualan pesawat MV-22 Block C Osprey kepada pemerintah Indonesia. Kementerian Pertahanan membantahnya.

m.detik.com

The likely explanation is that Indonesia requested a heavy lift vertical take off aircraft without specifying a specific model of a helicopter (but the usual guess is the Chinook) and Boeing interpreted the specs requested as fitting the Osprey more than the Chinook. Without looking at how the request is worded it's impossible to determine if it Sis indeed what's happened, but keep in mind that the Chinook and Osprey are both made by Boeing Vertol.

Seriously? Boeing would make the mistake of interpreting which Aircraft Indonesia is after, and then the mistake is further increased by sending a request for a FMS sale on the wrong Aircraft? I would be pretty sure the Indonesian Government would be involved in the FMS process and surely someone, somewhere would pick a fairly significant mistake up.

To the best i can find out this is only the 3rd time a FMS has been approved on the CV-22, Japan and Israel* being the others, so pretty rare and a notable occurrence especially compared to the number of FMS sales done on the CH-47 over the years.

*Sale not followed through