ADF General discussion thread

[oldsig127]

I half suspect they were cursing in private as I believe increased local defence manufacturing was one of their big policy plans before the next election. Local defence work equals lots of apprenticeships, traineeships

I'll bet the government is well aware. They've been promoting the shipbuilding plan as a driver for post COVID growth and to seed future manufacturing independence by building up trade, technical and scientific expertise for months.

All to the good, whichever side promote it, so long as they both continue it over time.

oldsig

 

[vonnoobie]

We can give enough work to Austal in regards to patrol boats to keep them happy, not break the bank or risk our capabilities. Also shuts up the morons.

As to future choules might be good to go to the Dutch and look at something similar to the Karel doorman. Doesn't necessarily have to be same size and capability but the concept has merits for nations wanting both capabilities but having only so much manpower.

In regards to our regional neighbours the Australian put out an article (behind a paywall) NoCookies | The Australian that states that the Philippines and Indonesia support the move while I have seen nothing but support from Indian media with some actually pushing this as a chance to deepen defence and trade ties between us. Overall everyone except china appears to either love it or don't care.

While terrible times their is also the chance for it to be a great time going forward if we work respectfully with our neighbours. A number of them have even been pushing for us to invest into their nations over china. Independent none of us really have much chance but combined it's china that doesn't. Seems leadership all around the region seems to see this and are moving faster that way.

 

[Todjaeger]

Yes JSM has an advantage of being carried internally on the F-35A (and externally too) for stealth purposes, but equally with an external LRASM under the wing it allows for a heavier hitting weapon, and because of that extra range it probably means that being detected is less of an issue.

JSM/NSM I suspect can also be carried and launched from a naval helicopter. That would give even more flexibility to something like the Romeo fleet and any vessels or TF that have embarked naval helicopters.

Overall this is good news, but I noticed no one has mentioned the bleeding obvious, an Aluminum trimaran JSS to replace Choules and keep Austal running.

Bite you tongue. Unless such a vessel were to be 'gifted' to China and/or N. Korea. Ever consider the idea of giving a white elephant?

 

[pykie]

As to future choules might be good to go to the Dutch and look at something similar to the Karel doorman. Doesn't necessarily have to be same size and capability but the concept has merits for nations wanting both capabilities but having only so much manpower.

Funnily enough is one of the only dual nationality military vessels in the world ~ Dutch/German.

I wonder if this could ever work in the future for Aus/NZ support vessels?

 

[Stampede]

If you had a shovel you still wouldn't be able to go deep enough to find my opinion of Austal.

Not a fan of Navantia either and I will take the chance to point out that their JSS appears to have been evolved from Galicia, which is basically an Enforcer, i.e. Rotterdam, from which the Bays (Choules) were in turn evolved. Why don't we cut out the Spanish and Brits and deal direct with the Dutch on something nice shiny and new, maybe even look at a collaborative deal with Indonesia as they seem to have a very beneficial relationship with Damen.

Our norther neighbors do not seem all that happy with Chinas behavior and may feel even more threatened than we do. I suspect their may actually be some sighs of relief in SEA that Aust seem to have finally woken up to the fact that China is Chinas best friend, not ours, we are just the supermarket they have been shopping at, they don't actually like us.

I don't think they like us either.
Then again I don't know who they genuinely actually like.

A comment about their government, not the people.

Regards S

 

[Stampede]

Funnily enough is one of the only dual nationality military vessels in the world ~ Dutch/German.

I wonder if this could ever work in the future for Aus/NZ support vessels?

The timing could be good for Aus / NZ sharing a common class of vessel for their respective Amphibious / Supply needs.
Being suggested before, but a build of four such vessels could be a possibility.

Certainly doable if the designed vessel is scalable in size for each respective navy's needs.

An ANZAC Class Amphibious/ Supply vessel ????

Some trans Tasman political vision would be needed.


Regards S

 

[Redlands18]

The timing could be good for Aus / NZ sharing a common class of vessel for their respective Amphibious / Supply needs.
Being suggested before, but a build of four such vessels could be a possibility.

Certainly doable if the designed vessel is scalable in size for each respective navy's needs.

An ANZAC Class Amphibious/ Supply vessel ????

Some trans Tasman political vision would be needed.


Regards S

Why aren’t they talking about getting the Kiwis involved in the Pacific Ship? At least help operate and man her.

 

[aussienscale]

The timing could be good for Aus / NZ sharing a common class of vessel for their respective Amphibious / Supply needs.
Being suggested before, but a build of four such vessels could be a possibility.

Certainly doable if the designed vessel is scalable in size for each respective navy's needs.

An ANZAC Class Amphibious/ Supply vessel ????

Some trans Tasman political vision would be needed.


Regards S

Has there been any indication from NZ when Canterbury is due for replacement ?

A JSS style ship may not be a stupid idea for them, with the new HMNZS Aotearoa likely to be doing a lot of southern supply runs, is a JSS style replacement for Canterbury out of the question ?

Cheers

 

[Redlands18]

Has there been any indication from NZ when Canterbury is due for replacement ?

A JSS style ship may not be a stupid idea for them, with the new HMNZS Aotearoa likely to be doing a lot of southern supply runs, is a JSS style replacement for Canterbury out of the question ?

Cheers

I think there is a replacement for the Canterbury planned to start late this decade, it has been mentioned on the RNZN thread.

 

[RAN AWD]

Has there been any indication from NZ when Canterbury is due for replacement ?

A JSS style ship may not be a stupid idea for them, with the new HMNZS Aotearoa likely to be doing a lot of southern supply runs, is a JSS style replacement for Canterbury out of the question ?

Cheers

They are replacing Canterbury in the early 2030's.
They are replacing her with 2 amphibious vessels with a well dock. The first will assist from 2028 and then she'll be replaced from the early 2030's.

 

[aussienscale]

They are replacing Canterbury in the early 2030's.
They are replacing her with 2 amphibious vessels with a well dock. The first will assist from 2028 and then she'll be replaced from the early 2030's.

Thanks for that, do you have a reference for that to read up on please ?

Cheers

 

[ngatimozart]

Why aren’t they talking about getting the Kiwis involved in the Pacific Ship? At least help operate and man her.

Why would we want to do that? We have enough trouble crewing our own ships and there is no money in the kitty for this.

 

[ngatimozart]

Thanks for that, do you have a reference for that to read up on please ?

Cheers

It's in the 2019 DCP

Defence Capability Plan 2019 | Ministry of Defence website

www.defence.govt.nz

 

[OPSSG]

We can give enough work to Austal in regards to patrol boats to keep them happy, not break the bank or risk our capabilities. Also shuts up the morons.

As to future choules might be good to go to the Dutch and look at something similar to the Karel doorman...

While terrible times their is also the chance for it to be a great time going forward if we work respectfully with our neighbours. A number of them have even been pushing for us to invest into their nations over china. Independent none of us really have much chance but combined it's china that doesn't. Seems leadership all around the region seems to see this and are moving faster that way.

Would Australia ever consider buying a technical package from ST Marine, for the design of the choules replacement based on the Endurance 140 class, with Australian customisations?

Taking into consideration how much money is being spent by Singapore to build training facilities in Australia?

 

[DDG38]

Would Australia ever consider buying a technical package from ST Marine, for the design of the choules replacement based on the Endurance 140 class, with Australian customisations?

Taking into consideration how much money is being spent by Singapore to build training facilities in Australia?

Given the significant security and intelligence risks involved, I would say it would be pretty unlikely despite the advantages of a proven shipyard and design team.

 

[vonnoobie]

Would Australia ever consider buying a technical package from ST Marine, for the design of the choules replacement based on the Endurance 140 class, with Australian customisations?

Taking into consideration how much money is being spent by Singapore to build training facilities in Australia?

Maybe, maybe not. If it meets our needs then sure but if it doesn't then I don't think so. Off hand though the endurance 140 may fit in nicely as the Pacific support ship?

 

[Todjaeger]

Maybe, maybe not. If it meets our needs then sure but if it doesn't then I don't think so. Off hand though the endurance 140 may fit in nicely as the Pacific support ship?

Not so sure about that. While an Endurance 140 would certainly provide a capable platform for a Pacific support ship, there is still very little that we know or appears in the public domain about just what the Pacific support ship is supposed to be.

Based off the 2008 contract Thailand signed for an Endurance-class LPD, I would anticipate a contract for one now would cost ~AUD$270 mil. before any modifications or Australianization. Given that from what has been announced previously, the funding for a Pacific support ship is to come from within the existing budget by diverting funding from other areas (like training, IIRC) I am not certain that something costing hundreds of millions of dollars could be squeezed in. Not to mention there would still need to be resources allocated to provide support and a crew.

I do think the idea of some sort of Pacific support ship, tasked with providing humanitarian support and adding Australian diplomatic and economic efforts in the ASEAN/Pacific region is worthwhile. I just get concerned that people might be getting ahead of themselves in terms of what would be appropriate and effective, as well as at what cost.

 

[Redlands18]

Not so sure about that. While an Endurance 140 would certainly provide a capable platform for a Pacific support ship, there is still very little that we know or appears in the public domain about just what the Pacific support ship is supposed to be.

Based off the 2008 contract Thailand signed for an Endurance-class LPD, I would anticipate a contract for one now would cost ~AUD$270 mil. before any modifications or Australianization. Given that from what has been announced previously, the funding for a Pacific support ship is to come from within the existing budget by diverting funding from other areas (like training, IIRC) I am not certain that something costing hundreds of millions of dollars could be squeezed in. Not to mention there would still need to be resources allocated to provide support and a crew.

I do think the idea of some sort of Pacific support ship, tasked with providing humanitarian support and adding Australian diplomatic and economic efforts in the ASEAN/Pacific region is worthwhile. I just get concerned that people might be getting ahead of themselves in terms of what would be appropriate and effective, as well as at what cost.

I don’t even know if we can be sure the Pacific Ship will be a commissioned Vessel of the RAN or a Civilian manned ADV Vessel. Probably not armed and possibly painted white so that it could be used as a Hospital Ship in War Time.

 

[Todjaeger]

I don’t even know if we can be sure the Pacific Ship will be a commissioned Vessel of the RAN or a Civilian manned ADV Vessel. Probably not armed and possibly painted white so that it could be used as a Hospital Ship in War Time.

My personal preference, if the Pacific support ship is to be used as I suspect, would be for the vessel to be flagged as either an ADV or preferably something which does not even reference it being a 'Defence' vessel. Not quite sure that using AHS would work, but I would prefer that over ADV or HMAS.

 

[spoz]

I have been told that a requirements set is in existence, but I haven’t seen it and, if it is, I have no idea where in the endorsement process it might be.