PRC Peoples Liberation Army Navy

[DaveS124]

Years ago, on another forum, I saw a comment that in due course they'll need traffic lights in INDOPAC oggins to handle all the flat-tops with embarked fast jets.

Made in jest, I think, at that time, but true enough, especially with this news update in mind, from The Diplomat.



China’s First Domestically Built Carrier Preps for Commissioning Ceremony


The new carrier is reportedly being made ready for commissioning, according to Chinese state media reports.

Franz-Stefan Gady
October 31st, 2019

The Chinese People’s Liberation Army Navy’s (PLAN) first domestically designed and built aircraft carrier, the Type 002 (CV-17), which has yet to be named, is being prepared for its commissioning ceremony following the successful completion of its eight round of sea trials, according to local media reports.

The Hong Kong-based news website wenweipo.com published a video of Chinese People’s Liberation Army Navy (PLAN) personnel practicing an inspection ceremony dressed in white naval uniforms on October 24. A large ‘1’ was also painted on the ship’s hull, according to the video, but the markings had been erased the next day.

Article here - China’s First Domestically Built Carrier Preps for Commissioning Ceremony

 

[John Fedup]

Apparently China will stop at 4 carriers and the new CATOBAR design is on hold due to financial and technical reasons. Maybe the real reason for the hold is poor value for money given the huge advances in anti-ship missile technology. China is in a good position to know, having developed many of these missiles. Perhaps their performance claims are valid given the carrier "hold".

China plans fourth aircraft carrier, but further plans are on hold

 

[ngatimozart]

Apparently China will stop at 4 carriers and the new CATOBAR design is on hold due to financial and technical reasons. Maybe the real reason for the hold is poor value for money given the huge advances in anti-ship missile technology. China is in a good position to know, having developed many of these missiles. Perhaps their performance claims are valid given the carrier "hold".

China plans fourth aircraft carrier, but further plans are on hold

I don't think that it has anything to do with missiles at all. If true it could be for the reasons given. However it could also be maskirovka which wouldn't surprise me in the slightest, it's a classic ploy out of the Sun Tzu Ping Fa and I would tend to err closer to this being the reason.

Edit: A resource that may be helpful. Handbook of Russian Information Warfare. It's a pdf file and not about the PRC, but it should give an insight into how they approach maskirovka in info warfare.

 

[John Fedup]

Anything is possible but deception on their CVN future doesn't in my mind accomplish much. It won't have any effect on the USN's Ford class as despite all the problems it seems to be full speed ahead. China could have a secret development program well underway and all the major components might suddenly appear in a naval shipyard but would that really surprise? Pretending to have a CVN program while in fact having a covert light carrier program and a F-35B clone might pose a bigger problem for the region as many more ships could be built. Still think their missile capability may be the reason. Financial concerns are just as valid though given all the trade uncertainties.

 

[seaspear]

Would it have anything to do with the J-15 having difficulty flying off the ski ramp with any thing more than two tons of weapons fully fueled and having no air to air refueling ,also it was reported in July 2018 Lietenant general Zhang Honge of the P.L.A.A.F stated that China is developing a new fighter to replace the J-15 due to four crashes and new technical problems

 

[John Fedup]

Would it have anything to do with the J-15 having difficulty flying off the ski ramp with any thing more than two tons of weapons fully fueled and having no air to air refueling ,also it was reported in July 2018 Lietenant general Zhang Honge of the P.L.A.A.F stated that China is developing a new fighter to replace the J-15 due to four crashes and new technical problems

If the J-15 is problematic with a ski ramp then surely that is reason to proceed with a CATOBAR design unless a new naval fighter is due soon. A STOVL fighter would certainly rock the boat.

 

[ngatimozart]

The PLAN has commissioned its second carrier and named Shandong. This is its first domestic built CV with the commissioning ceremony yesterday (Tuesday) at Sanya, Hainan. Xi Jinping commissioned the ship.

China's new aircraft carrier enters service at South China Sea base

 

[ngatimozart]

A Forbes article on the PLAN build program. Has an interesting photo of the JN Shipyard in Shanghai.

The Chinese Navy Is Building An Incredible Number Of Warships

 

[Todjaeger]

I don't think that it has anything to do with missiles at all. If true it could be for the reasons given. However it could also be maskirovka which wouldn't surprise me in the slightest, it's a classic ploy out of the Sun Tzu Ping Fa and I would tend to err closer to this being the reason.

Edit: A resource that may be helpful. Handbook of Russian Information Warfare. It's a pdf file and not about the PRC, but it should give an insight into how they approach maskirovka in info warfare.

It could also be that China/PRC is re-evaluating their planning for the future PLAN OrBat. This could be particularly relevant if the PRC is able to establish land facilities for both PLAN and PLAAF assets which would cover much of the SLOC between sources of PRC energy and industrial rawmats. This would lessen the pressure upon the PLAN to have a expeditionary capability to defend PRC access to energy and resources, as there would be the ability to deploy land-based aircraft to cover the SLOC.

 

[ngatimozart]

It could also be that China/PRC is re-evaluating their planning for the future PLAN OrBat. This could be particularly relevant if the PRC is able to establish land facilities for both PLAN and PLAAF assets which would cover much of the SLOC between sources of PRC energy and industrial rawmats. This would lessen the pressure upon the PLAN to have a expeditionary capability to defend PRC access to energy and resources, as there would be the ability to deploy land-based aircraft to cover the SLOC.

That is quite feasible as well and would not surprise me. Trouble is we really have nothing definitive to base anything on because we cannot tell what is maskirovka and what is factual. The one issue with land based air cover and naval bases are that it's bases are at a fixed known locations and easily countered / and or targeted.

 

[Todjaeger]

That is quite feasible as well and would not surprise me. Trouble is we really have nothing definitive to base anything on because we cannot tell what is maskirovka and what is factual. The one issue with land based air cover and naval bases are that it's bases are at a fixed known locations and easily countered / and or targeted.

Sort of yes, and sort of no. A great deal depends on just who/which adversaries the PLAN is being structured to oppose. What would fail or be quite vulnerable in a conflict with the US could potentially work quite well in a conflict with India. Hence my reference to PRC SLOC for energy and resources,

 

[ngatimozart]

The PLAN CV Shandong passed through the Taiwan Strait yesterday, Thursday 26/12/19. This sailing is a fortnight before the Taiwanese Presidential election, so is a show of force. China's Newest Aircraft Carrier Transits Taiwan Strait - USNI News

 

[DaveS124]

Could be interesting times ahead if RAN frigate HUNTER and PLAN cruiser NANCHANG are in the same AO at the same time (note the pennant number).

Attached pic from this decent little report - China commissions its largest and 'most powerful' surface warship yet

 

[ngatimozart]

The US Naval War College has released a report on the PLAN Type 055 10,000 ton DDG. China Maritime Report No. 5 - China's Dreadnought? The PLA Navy's Type 055 Cruiser and Its Implications for the Future Maritime Security Environment It's published by the China Maritime Studies Institute of the USNWC.

The abstract:
China’s naval modernization, a process that has been underway in earnest for three decades, is now
hitting its stride. The advent of the Type 055 cruiser firmly places the PLAN among the world’s very
top naval services. This study, which draws upon a unique set of Chinese-language writings, offers
the first comprehensive look at this new, large surface combatant. It reveals a ship that has a stealthy
design, along with a potent and seemingly well-integrated sensor suite. With 112 VLS cells,
moreover, China’s new cruiser represents a large magazine capacity increase over legacy surface
combatants. Its lethality might also be augmented as new, cutting edge weaponry could later be
added to the accommodating design. This vessel, therefore, provides very substantial naval capability
to escort Chinese carrier groups, protect Beijing’s long sea lanes, and take Chinese naval diplomacy
to an entirely new and daunting level. Even more significant perhaps, the Type 055 will markedly
expand the range and firepower of the PLAN and this could substantially impact myriad potential
conflict scenarios, from the Indian Ocean to the Korean Peninsula and many in between. This study
of Type 055 development, moreover, does yield evidence that Chinese naval strategists are acutely
aware of major dilemmas confronting the U.S. Navy surface fleet.

The report is a pdf document of 27 pages. I haven't read it yet apart from a very quick skim, but from first glance the age old argument of classification raises its head. The PRC label it a DDG, Navy’s Type 055 Destroyer Nanchang is Commissioned (in Chinese: translated using Google translate). However the articles authors claim that it is 12,000 tons which will be US tons (short tons). If the PRC use metric tonnes it's 11,200 US tons.

I have to be honest though a ship with 100+ VLS and a displacement of 10,000 tonnes+ appears to be more of a CCG than a DDG, but it comes back to how do you classify your warships.

 

[swerve]

IF the PRC uses metric tons? Why would they use anything else? Does anyone except the USA call 907 kg a ton?

 

[ngatimozart]

IF the PRC uses metric tons? Why would they use anything else? Does anyone except the USA call 907 kg a ton?

Nope, what I am commenting on is the lack of a single classification standard for classes of warships. Each nation seems to have its own methodology and terminology.

We all understand that the US won't accept the metric system because it's to complicated for their political system to understand, let alone try to implement As some of my fellow Kiwis put it, to stubborn and thick to change, which isn't really nice but we do tend to tell it as it is. As an aside I can remember changing from pounds, shillings and pence to dollars and cents in 1967 and that made life so much easier counting money. No base 21 (guineas), base 20 (pounds), base 12 (shillings) etc. Later in the 1970s when we changed from imperial measurements to metric, it took some getting used to, but it's a darn sight easier doing calculations etc. Having every thing in base 10 is an absolute no brainer.

The PRC uses the metric system for some things but China also has its own weights and measures, that have been used for millennia. I did a quick Mr Google last night before I wrote my post that you replied to, but couldn't find anything for weights around the ton mark. It also depends upon how they translate from Mandarin to English. If it's US English then could be ton, not the SI spelling of tonne.

 

[Stampede]

The US Naval War College has released a report on the PLAN Type 055 10,000 ton DDG. China Maritime Report No. 5 - China's Dreadnought? The PLA Navy's Type 055 Cruiser and Its Implications for the Future Maritime Security Environment It's published by the China Maritime Studies Institute of the USNWC.

The abstract:
China’s naval modernization, a process that has been underway in earnest for three decades, is now
hitting its stride. The advent of the Type 055 cruiser firmly places the PLAN among the world’s very
top naval services. This study, which draws upon a unique set of Chinese-language writings, offers
the first comprehensive look at this new, large surface combatant. It reveals a ship that has a stealthy
design, along with a potent and seemingly well-integrated sensor suite. With 112 VLS cells,
moreover, China’s new cruiser represents a large magazine capacity increase over legacy surface
combatants. Its lethality might also be augmented as new, cutting edge weaponry could later be
added to the accommodating design. This vessel, therefore, provides very substantial naval capability
to escort Chinese carrier groups, protect Beijing’s long sea lanes, and take Chinese naval diplomacy
to an entirely new and daunting level. Even more significant perhaps, the Type 055 will markedly
expand the range and firepower of the PLAN and this could substantially impact myriad potential
conflict scenarios, from the Indian Ocean to the Korean Peninsula and many in between. This study
of Type 055 development, moreover, does yield evidence that Chinese naval strategists are acutely
aware of major dilemmas confronting the U.S. Navy surface fleet.

The report is a pdf document of 27 pages. I haven't read it yet apart from a very quick skim, but from first glance the age old argument of classification raises its head. The PRC label it a DDG, Navy’s Type 055 Destroyer Nanchang is Commissioned (in Chinese: translated using Google translate). However the articles authors claim that it is 12,000 tons which will be US tons (short tons). If the PRC use metric tonnes it's 11,200 US tons.

I have to be honest though a ship with 100+ VLS and a displacement of 10,000 tonnes+ appears to be more of a CCG than a DDG, but it comes back to how do you classify your warships.

Hi Ngatimozart.

What ever the classification it's a bloody big warship.
Wiki ( Yes some hate this site ) states 6 currently being built with one now commissioned.

Certainly an intimidating vessel that will sail with others to collectively form an even more intimidating military unit.

A task force of such ships is not something you'd want lurking off your shoreline.


Regards S

 

[ngatimozart]

Hi Ngatimozart.

What ever the classification it's a bloody big warship.
Wiki ( Yes some hate this site ) states 6 currently being built with one now commissioned.

Certainly an intimidating vessel that will sail with others to collectively form an even more intimidating military unit.

A task force of such ships is not something you'd want lurking off your shoreline.


Regards S

Yep, agree Stampede. Such a task force lurking off your coast with evil intent would tend to ruin your CNs day somewhat. Make him wish that he'd joined a nunnery or something.

 

[John Fedup]

IF the PRC uses metric tons? Why would they use anything else? Does anyone except the USA call 907 kg a ton?

Although Canada is a metric country now the old units of measurement still linger on here, especially lbs.

 

[Stampede]

Yep, agree Stampede. Such a task force lurking off your coast with evil intent would tend to ruin your CNs day somewhat. Make him wish that he'd joined a nunnery or something.

CN joining the nunnery!!!!
Sounds a bit "The sound of music "
Then again Mr Von Trapp was a Naval officer.

There was some coverage of a Russian naval task force transiting the top end through the Torres strait when President Putin was in town .
Rather than some big statement of intimidation, these somewhat old ships accompanied by a ocean going tug, had a somewhat pathetic and comedic look about their intended statement.

May not be the same if replicated by the PLAN with there modern capable fleet

Is the nunnery recruiting!

Regards S