Royal Canadian Navy Discussions and updates

[ngatimozart]

I would respectfully disagree about whether or not Canadian and Australian experiences from WWII are relevant to current defence procurement, planning and structure.

Realistically, the situations Canada and Australia found themselves in at various times during WWII were quite different. While both nations were subject to attempts by Axis forces to interdict shipping, those SLOC were themselves quite a bit different in both the nature and usage by the Allies. This in turn was influenced by the national situations for the two countries at the time of the war. One of the major situational differences was that Canada was a point of origin for war material which would then be shipped to the European theatre, while Australia (with less industrial capacity appropriate to produce war material) was more of either a destination or trans-shipment point.

This in turn is further reinforced by looking at the island-hopping campaigns the Empire of Japan conducted in the early part of the war, getting to within sight of Port Moresby in 1942 before having to withdraw due to setbacks on Guadalcanal in the Solomons. Had either the US been defeated on Guadalcanal (or if they had never managed to land) or Australian and Papuan forces been less effective in PNG, Japan would have taken Port Moresby and then had facilities to support warships as well as fighter and bomber aircraft, all within 800 km of Cairns on the Australian mainland. I am not aware of any Axis campaign to seize territory able to support naval vessels and/or aircraft near Canada or even just North America.

The only Japanese conquered territory that would've had any possibility of being expanded to be a base with which to threaten North America, was the Aleutian Islands. That operation was a feint for the Midway operation and never intended to be anything else but a decoy.

 

[Ananda]

Had either the US been defeated on Guadalcanal (or if they had never managed to land) or Australian and Papuan forces been less effective in PNG, Japan would have taken Port Moresby and then had facilities to support warships as well as fighter and bomber aircraft, all within 800 km of Cairns on the Australian mainland.

Not want to put Canadian Navy thread on Australian condition on WW2, however I do agree that Australia possition toward potential Axis in WW2 is facing more significant threat compared to Canada.

Had Takagi more pressing, his two carriers (Shokaku and Zuikaku) has more chance to take both Yorktown and Lexington by surprise in Coral Sea. Thus instead only loosing Lexington and damage to Yorktown in the cost of damage to both Zuikaku and Shokaku, USN potentially lost both carriers without inflicting damage to both IJN carriers.

If this happens, not only lost to all Papua New Guinea, but potential Midway will be conducted by all 6 IJN fleet carriers with USN can only face them with Enterprise and Hornet.
Australia and the whole Allies Pacific war could be on different positions.

 

[Todjaeger]

The only Japanese conquered territory that would've had any possibility of being expanded to be a base with which to threaten North America, was the Aleutian Islands. That operation was a feint for the Midway operation and never intended to be anything else but a decoy.

There has been some thought that Japan's Aleutian Islands campaign was also intended to block or prevent a Northern Pacific approach by the Allies. In hindsight though, it seems that the harsh environmental conditions were sufficient to do that. These conditions both inhibited the Japanese forces from establishing themselves in all the areas originally intended, as well as the Allies from carrying out a proper counteroffensive for nearly a year.

Realistically though, the campaign would not have been able to be a real threat to mainland North America due to the harsh conditions, distance, and small size of the force. One needs to keep in mind that Kiska Island captured by Japan during the campaign was about the same distance from Anchorage as between Sydney and Auckland, and while Anchorage at the time would have been a comparatively large settlement, it still only had a population of around 6,000 during 1942... The distance to the nearest major population centre (Vancouver, BC I think) was nearly double that.

The campaign did manage to delay the allies ability to establish and use air bases in the Aleutians to carry out long-ranged bombing missions of the Japanese home islands but it did not have the potential to put more territory under the control of Japan.

 

[Novascotiaboy]

This was reported in May but the detail in this release says multiple systems were to be delivered in Q3. Has anyone in the Halifax area seen one in or around Shearwater yet?

Canadian Armed Forces Select UMS SKELDAR V-200 UAS | Unmanned Systems Technology

 

[Underway]

HMCS Toronto is the first ship that will operate the SKELDAR. She has had her stbd torp mag modified with, the crane, torp racks and torp launcher removed to make it into an RPA workshop and storage space. They had a wooden mockup of the RPA for scale in order to properly design the space. The CSE Tech Office is being modified to take the control stations and new antenna are being installed on the ship. CSE Tech Office is being moved to the Fire Fighters Workshop last I checked, but that may change.

The systems delivered may have been to CANSOFCOM as those require a room and antenna and not a engineering change to a warship.

 

[Calculus]

Some pics from the HMCS HDW trials (courtesy the RCN twitter feed Royal Canadian Navy on Twitter).

 

[Calculus]

A bit more information on the SPY-7 radar selected for CSC, but as relates to the Japanese missile defense system: Japan Awards Contract to Lockheed Martin for 2 Solid State Radars for Aegis Ashore Batteries

I found this quote interesting: "Japan selected the SSR in July 2018 over Raytheon’s SPY-6 radar system due to the SSR’s lower lifecycle costs, better overall system performance including more sophisticated target discrimination capabilities and cheaper acquisition and operating costs in comparison to the SPY-6, according to the Japanese MoD at the time."

Looks like a very powerful and reliable system. Good choice by the RCN.

 

[Calculus]

Nice video of HMCS Harry DeWolf during her initial sea trials. She looks pretty good!

 

[Calculus]

In case there was any doubt about who was supplying the volume search radar for CSC, this has started appearing in LM Canada adverts.

 

[Calculus]

Picture of HMCS Harry Dewalt during her builder's trials in the Atlantic Who is Harry DeWolf?

 

[Black Jack Shellac]

Seaspan Shipyards Delivers Its Second State-of-the-Art Offshore Fisheries Science Vessel to the Canadian Coast Guard
That is two down. The third is still in the yard but is scheduled for delivery in August 2020, so should be launched around February if it follows the schedule of the previous one.
It would be nice if they would update the photos on their web page so we could see the progress on the support ship.

 

[Calculus]

I was thumbing through a copy of Esprit de Corps magazine at the local Chapters last night, and came across an interview with LM Canada on CSC. In the interview, it was confirmed that the "basic" missile load-out will be ESSM blk2 and SM-2. It was also confirmed that Tomahawk and a long range SAM (SM-6?) are supported. Also interesting was they expect the first ship in the water by 2026. No mention of CAMM, but that capability has already been confirmed by multiple other sources, so they may not have felt the need to address this. In any case, details are now starting to leak out, so we may be nearing the end of the requirements reconciliation phase. We just need confirmation on the final number of Mk41 cells, and the X-band radar, and we'll have a pretty good picture of the CSC.

I tried to find a link to this information, but the print version of the magazine does not get posted online until the next print version comes out. I will keep an eye on this and re-post when a link is available.

 

[Black Jack Shellac]

Joint Support Ship Photos

Seaspan has posted some up to date photos of the JSS progress. It appears to be moving along quite nicely; however, pictures can be deceiving. Hopefully the final fisheries vessel will be launched in February and I will be able to see some of the bits and pieces of the JSS in the assembly berth .

 

[Novascotiaboy]

Working as an industrial rescue technician on vessels of all types here in Halifax its nice to see the size of the lightning holes on these vessels. Compared to ships from the 60s and 70s and 80s that populate the CCGS fleet these openings are huge. I appreciate very much your photos Black Jack Shellac. Thank you

 

[Calculus]

Davie selected as third NSS shipyard: https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/davie-shipyard-norman-1.5402285

Initial contract will be to build 6 medium icebreakers for the Coast Guard. In all likelihood this means the heavy icebreaker (CCGS John G. Diefenbaker - Wikipedia) will also land here. I believe this makes it more likely a second heavy will be built, as Davie will have the capacity to do this - the other two NSS yards had too much higher priority work to allow for a second such vessel, at least in the short term anyway.

 

[ASSAIL]

Working as an industrial rescue technician on vessels of all types here in Halifax its nice to see the size of the lightning holes on these vessels. Compared to ships from the 60s and 70s and 80s that populate the CCGS fleet these openings are huge. I appreciate very much your photos Black Jack Shellac. Thank you

Please excuse my ignorance but I think something has been lost in translation. What are “lightning holes”?
I haven’t heard that term before, I’m assuming you meant “limber” holes ie holes in the webbing that allow the bilges to drain?

 

[Black Jack Shellac]

Please excuse my ignorance but I think something has been lost in translation. What are “lightning holes”?
I haven’t heard that term before, I’m assuming you meant “limber” holes ie holes in the webbing that allow the bilges to drain?

I suspect he means lightening holes, which I assume are the holes cut through the neutral axis of the webs to reduce the weight of steel. Not a ship builder though.

 

[Systems Adict]

I suspect he means lightening holes, which I assume are the holes cut through the neutral axis of the webs to reduce the weight of steel. Not a ship builder though.

As an individual who has spent the last 25 years in shipbuilding, I 110% concur with the statement above.

The link at the top of post #2055 (goto image #8 of #86), shows clearly that the holes in question are large enough for personnel to transit thru (albeit that they are a pain to transit thru !). Limber/mouse-holes are normally at the extremes of welded joints / in corners between stiffeners & bulkhead / deck head plates & are generally no bigger than x1 or x2 fingers width in size. They help provide a route for air / fluids to transit, while having the additional benefit of prevent 'sheer' tears in bulkhead panels, caused by stress loading (when larger / longer hulls are constantly slamming & bouncing in heavy seas (above sea state 6)).

The phrase 'Lightening holes' merely refers to the fact that by removing the centre section between the stiffeners, they are maintaining the structural strength of the bulkhead but actually reducing the overall weight of the vessel. This is a common shipbuilding practice as maintaining overall weight of a ship in 'dry' configuration allows the naval architects to calculate a more accurate set of speed / range calculations. In this modern era these are often written into the contracts & can cost both the customer & shipbuilder dearly, if the ship cannot achieve a set range, at a specific speed. This is something that LCS allegedly fell foul of when the data pointed to the fact that the ships can't transit from San Diego to Hawaii at a specific (high) speed, as they would run out of fuel before they got there...

Many Navies have to re-examine this data after every refit / addition of any new system, as additional weight over & above the initial design data will have a detrimental effect to the ability to maintain top speed.

 

[ASSAIL]

As an individual who has spent the last 25 years in shipbuilding, I 110% concur with the statement above.

The link at the top of post #2055 (goto image #8 of #86), shows clearly that the holes in question are large enough for personnel to transit thru (albeit that they are a pain to transit thru !). Limber/mouse-holes are normally at the extremes of welded joints / in corners between stiffeners & bulkhead / deck head plates & are generally no bigger than x1 or x2 fingers width in size. They help provide a route for air / fluids to transit, while having the additional benefit of prevent 'sheer' tears in bulkhead panels, caused by stress loading (when larger / longer hulls are constantly slamming & bouncing in heavy seas (above sea state 6)).

The phrase 'Lightening holes' merely refers to the fact that by removing the centre section between the stiffeners, they are maintaining the structural strength of the bulkhead but actually reducing the overall weight of the vessel. This is a common shipbuilding practice as maintaining overall weight of a ship in 'dry' configuration allows the naval architects to calculate a more accurate set of speed / range calculations. In this modern era these are often written into the contracts & can cost both the customer & shipbuilder dearly, if the ship cannot achieve a set range, at a specific speed. This is something that LCS allegedly fell foul of when the data pointed to the fact that the ships can't transit from San Diego to Hawaii at a specific (high) speed, as they would run out of fuel before they got there...

Many Navies have to re-examine this data after every refit / addition of any new system, as additional weight over & above the initial design data will have a detrimental effect to the ability to maintain top speed.

Thanks SA, I wasn’t aware that term, I just thought all webs/frames had holes big enough for a man to enter for tank cleaning etc.
I didn’t think they had a name, learn something every day on here.

 

[Calculus]

Davie selected as third NSS shipyard: https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/davie-shipyard-norman-1.5402285

Initial contract will be to build 6 medium icebreakers for the Coast Guard. In all likelihood this means the heavy icebreaker (CCGS John G. Diefenbaker - Wikipedia) will also land here. I believe this makes it more likely a second heavy will be built, as Davie will have the capacity to do this - the other two NSS yards had too much higher priority work to allow for a second such vessel, at least in the short term anyway.

More on this: Davie Joins National Shipbuilding Strategy - Canadian Defence Review | Canadian Defence Review

So, according to the link, looks like Davie will be exclusively building icebreakers. Specialization is not a bad thing. However, lack of competition is, so I'm not sure what to think of this decision. The good is we will get ships in the water much quicker now with 3 shipyards, and with the government committed to a continuous drumbeat there appears to be more than enough work for all 3 yards.