Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

[alexsa]

Launching of Stalwart

I really despair at the the complete paucity of coverage of the AOR’s. I don’t know what defence media are thinking but the coverage of the DDG build was pretty poor but the AOR’s have be all but ignored. A nice video of the previous Stalwarts and the build of this one would have been a nice touch.

Absolutely pathetic.

 

[SteveR]

I really despair at the the complete paucity of coverage of the AOR’s. I don’t know what defence media are thinking but the coverage of the DDG build was pretty poor but the AOR’s have be all but ignored. A nice video of the previous Stalwarts and the build of this one would have been a nice touch.

Absolutely pathetic.

I know Alexsa - but we all know this would be like waving a red flag (no Spanish Pun intended) in front of the AMWU Bull. Of course AMWU conveniently forget that the previous union aligned government chose to build the LM1E's in Spain, but they won't remind us of that.

 

[alexsa]

I know Alexsa - but we all know this would be like waving a red flag (no Spanish Pun intended) in front of the AMWU Bull. Of course AMWU conveniently forget that the previous union aligned government chose to build the LM1E's in Spain, but they won't remind us of that.

I really think that issue is well past it. The vessels are being built as part of a 1.6billion dollar project and it seems quite odd that they would not remind the public of the Naval build up and the fact that 1billion of that 1.6 will be spent in Australia. Lets be honest the coverage of the DDG build was rubbish as well.

 

[SteveR]

I really think that issue is well past it. The vessels are being built as part of a 1.6billion dollar project and it seems quite odd that they would not remind the public of the Naval build up and the fact that 1billion of that 1.6 will be spent in Australia. Lets be honest the coverage of the DDG build was rubbish as well.

Well down here in Adelaide we often get reminders from the Opposition and AMWU about the valley of death imposed on ASC by the current government. Indeed I had a friend here alarmed that major servicing of Collins class might be shifted to WA. I should have asked him if he would like to have his major car servicing conducted in Perth - he could enjoy the drive across the Nullabor. We are way too parochial!

 

[spoz]

If there is a valley of death it was imposed by a previous government of a different persuasion which didn’t take up the option for the 4th DDG.

 

[alexsa]

Well down here in Adelaide we often get reminders from the Opposition and AMWU about the valley of death imposed on ASC by the current government. Indeed I had a friend here alarmed that major servicing of Collins class might be shifted to WA. I should have asked him if he would like to have his major car servicing conducted in Perth - he could enjoy the drive across the Nullabor. We are way too parochial!

Yes... it is a bit nuts. Given the infrastructure being built you have to wonder what the AMWU really expected. As far as Naval shipbuilding is concerned SA and WA have done very well.

 

[aussienscale]

Well down here in Adelaide we often get reminders from the Opposition and AMWU about the valley of death imposed on ASC by the current government. Indeed I had a friend here alarmed that major servicing of Collins class might be shifted to WA. I should have asked him if he would like to have his major car servicing conducted in Perth - he could enjoy the drive across the Nullabor. We are way too parochial!

History and fact show otherwise, but don't let that get in the way of a good story and political agenda.

 

[DaveS124]

Attached is a very recent photo of SUPPLY at Navantia's fitting-out wharf in Ferrol.

Excerpt of a translated Spanish media report follows.

" Navantia has begun the testing phase of the first of the two supply ships it builds at its Ferrol shipyards for the Australian Navy (RAN), the AAOR Supply. This stage will start with the energization of the electrical panels to later begin the platform and combat system tests. The last step will be the sea trials, scheduled for December of this year. The ship will then head to Australia by its own means in the first quarter of 2020 for delivery to the country's Navy in June of that year. "

@DaveS124 Provide a link to the sources for photo and the quote please
Ngatimozart.

 

[John Newman]

Another Youtube video of the launch of NUSHIP Stalwart:

You can't help but be impressed at the speed this project has gone up to this stage:
* March 2016 - Cantabria class design selected
* June 2017 - Steel cut
* 18 November 2017 - Supply keel laid down
* 24 November 2018 - Supply launched (one year and six days)
* 25 November 2018 - Stalwart keel laid down (one day after Supply launched)
* 30 August 2019 - Stalwart launched (a few days short of nine months)

And not long now before Supply starts sea trials and arrive here in Oz first quarter next year, Impressed? I am!

As to the pennant numbers, Supply has the same pennant number as the previous HMAS Supply, 195, but it does seem odd that Stalwart is inheriting 304 from the recently retired HMAS Success, rather than 215 from the previous HMAS Stalwart, maybe someone didn't want her to inherit the old 'Building 215' nickname??

I've put this link up before:

http://www.defence.gov.au/spi/Docs/...iary Oil Replenishment Vessels - Navantia.pdf

The construction cost by Navantia is A$646.8m for both ships (A$323.4m per ship), which also included at least A$120m of Australian supplied materials during construction.

Cheers,

PS, I wonder if we put an order in now for that possible 3rd AOR if we could have all three delivered before our Canuck cousins get their first new AOR??

 

[John Fedup]

You would likely receive a third AOR a half decade before the RCN gets their first Berlin AOR!

 

[40 deg south]

Another Youtube video of the launch of NUSHIP Stalwart:

You can't help but be impressed at the speed this project has gone up to this stage:
* March 2016 - Cantabria class design selected
* June 2017 - Steel cut
* 18 November 2017 - Supply keel laid down
* 24 November 2018 - Supply launched (one year and six days)
* 25 November 2018 - Stalwart keel laid down (one day after Supply launched)
* 30 August 2019 - Stalwart launched (a few days short of nine months)

Navantia have certainly not been wasting any time, hopefully putting paid to any stereotypes about siestas and efficiency.

For the other side of the Tasman, Hyundai are also putting in some long days building the new Aotearoa. The time line runs:

July 2016 - Contract signed with HHI
Feb 2018 - First steel cut
August 2018 - Keel laid down
October 2018 - Engines installed
April 2019 - Aotearoa launched
August 2019 - Engines run for first time
Predicted
Jan 2020 - Delivered to New Zealand

The construction has been even faster than Navantia managed (8 months from keel-laying to launch) but a much longer lag between signing contract and cutting first steel. That presumably reflects the Cantabria design already being a known quantity to the shipyard, whereas Aotearoa is the first time anyone has adapted the Rolls Royce Environship concept to an AOR. It will be great to see both designs on the water together in the years to come.

RNZN - Aotearoa

 

[alexsa]

Navantia have certainly not been wasting any time, hopefully putting paid to any stereotypes about siestas and efficiency.

For the other side of the Tasman, Hyundai are also putting in some long days building the new Aotearoa. The time line runs:

July 2016 - Contract signed with HHI
Feb 2018 - First steel cut
August 2018 - Keel laid down
October 2018 - Engines installed
April 2019 - Aotearoa launched
August 2019 - Engines run for first time
Predicted
Jan 2020 - Delivered to New Zealand

The construction has been even faster than Navantia managed (8 months from keel-laying to launch) but a much longer lag between signing contract and cutting first steel. That presumably reflects the Cantabria design already being a known quantity to the shipyard, whereas Aotearoa is the first time anyone has adapted the Rolls Royce Environship concept to an AOR. It will be great to see both designs on the water together in the years to come.

RNZN - Aotearoa

Dont forget the time on the building way is driven by block size. If you look at steel cut to launch both Navantia and HHI were pretty close. This could reflect that the use of a large dry dock allowed HHI to use larger blocks in the consolidation (which is pretty much thier normal practice for commerical vessels).

 

[Stampede]

Another Youtube video of the launch of NUSHIP Stalwart:

You can't help but be impressed at the speed this project has gone up to this stage:
* March 2016 - Cantabria class design selected
* June 2017 - Steel cut
* 18 November 2017 - Supply keel laid down
* 24 November 2018 - Supply launched (one year and six days)
* 25 November 2018 - Stalwart keel laid down (one day after Supply launched)
* 30 August 2019 - Stalwart launched (a few days short of nine months)

And not long now before Supply starts sea trials and arrive here in Oz first quarter next year, Impressed? I am!

As to the pennant numbers, Supply has the same pennant number as the previous HMAS Supply, 195, but it does seem odd that Stalwart is inheriting 304 from the recently retired HMAS Success, rather than 215 from the previous HMAS Stalwart, maybe someone didn't want her to inherit the old 'Building 215' nickname??

I've put this link up before:

http://www.defence.gov.au/spi/Docs/Public AIC Plan - SEA1654-3 Auxiliary Oil Replenishment Vessels - Navantia.pdf

The construction cost by Navantia is A$646.8m for both ships (A$323.4m per ship), which also included at least A$120m of Australian supplied materials during construction.

Cheers,

PS, I wonder if we put an order in now for that possible 3rd AOR if we could have all three delivered before our Canuck cousins get their first new AOR??

It's an interesting question John, not just for the RAN, but any navy looking for this type of ship.
The Cantabria appears to be a quality product and with Navantias work force up to speed it certainly could be a win win for both supplier and customer for whoever commits to building another of this class of ship.
Unfortunately probably to late for the RAN.

Regards S

 

[John Newman]

Navantia have certainly not been wasting any time, hopefully putting paid to any stereotypes about siestas and efficiency.

For the other side of the Tasman, Hyundai are also putting in some long days building the new Aotearoa. The time line runs:

July 2016 - Contract signed with HHI
Feb 2018 - First steel cut
August 2018 - Keel laid down
October 2018 - Engines installed
April 2019 - Aotearoa launched
August 2019 - Engines run for first time
Predicted
Jan 2020 - Delivered to New Zealand

The construction has been even faster than Navantia managed (8 months from keel-laying to launch) but a much longer lag between signing contract and cutting first steel. That presumably reflects the Cantabria design already being a known quantity to the shipyard, whereas Aotearoa is the first time anyone has adapted the Rolls Royce Environship concept to an AOR. It will be great to see both designs on the water together in the years to come.

RNZN - Aotearoa

Mate,

I think the RAN and RNZN can both be proud of the fact that in a few short years from now we will collectively have three brand new AORs available for service between us.

As for construction times (laid down to launch, and noting Alexsa's comment), yes Aotearoa was only on the slips for eight months, Supply was on the slips for twelve months, but Stalwart was only on the slips for nine months.

Anyway, however you slice and dice it, good result for all.

Which brings me to an interesting question (I've waved this flag before too), as we know the Oz 2016 DWP has stated that the RAN can have either a 3rd AOR or a 2nd Strategic Sealift Ship (eg, a Choules type ship), but not both.

Obviously our three AORs are assets of our respective nations, but would the RAN be able to rely on the use of Aotearoa in times of need more often than not?

If so, maybe the RAN should push harder for that 2nd Choules type ship rather than a 3rd AOR for the RAN?

Cheers,

 

[milliGal]

Obviously our three AORs are assets of our respective nations, but would the RAN be able to rely on the use of Aotearoa in times of need more often than not?

I saw a comment in NZ MoD report recently that said close to 40% of the fuel delivered by the RNZN's previous AOR (HMNZS Endeavour) was delivered to Australian ships. If that is anything to go by I think it is safe to say these ships will be great assets to both of our Navy's.

 

[Stampede]

Mate,

I think the RAN and RNZN can both be proud of the fact that in a few short years from now we will collectively have three brand new AORs available for service between us.

As for construction times (laid down to launch, and noting Alexsa's comment), yes Aotearoa was only on the slips for eight months, Supply was on the slips for twelve months, but Stalwart was only on the slips for nine months.

Anyway, however you slice and dice it, good result for all.

Which brings me to an interesting question (I've waved this flag before too), as we know the Oz 2016 DWP has stated that the RAN can have either a 3rd AOR or a 2nd Strategic Sealift Ship (eg, a Choules type ship), but not both.

Obviously our three AORs are assets of our respective nations, but would the RAN be able to rely on the use of Aotearoa in times of need more often than not?

If so, maybe the RAN should push harder for that 2nd Choules type ship rather than a 3rd AOR for the RAN?

Cheers,

Hi John

Many on DT share your interest on this subject and suggest we could all take it many directions.
With out getting into fantasy fleets, I think the starting point will be for government / defence to put some future plan into concrete.
The DWP16 seems years away which really it isn't, but with a recent federal election and some Geo / Political uncertainty in the region, both near and far,
a revamp of defence procurement in some area may need some greater clarity.
Maybe not a new white paper, but a statement of recognition that their are some defence capabilities that may need to be brought forward or introduced.
The recent statement re SPG's for the Army seemingly came out of the blue, so I'm sure some specific defence needs may be on the near horizon that are not in the DWP16.
Maybe that 3rd AOR / LSD / Pacific support ship what ever, may be clarified and ordered.

Regards S

PS - If I could turn back the clock it would of been 3 x LHD's and 3 x AOR's.

Arhhhh well!

 

[John Newman]

I saw a comment in NZ MoD report recently that said close to 40% of the fuel delivered by the RNZN's previous AOR (HMNZS Endeavour) was delivered to Australian ships. If that is anything to go by I think it is safe to say these ships will be great assets to both of our Navy's.

That is an interesting Stat about Endeavour, not surprised that she delivered a significant amount of fuel to ships not owned and operated by the RNZN.

Of the three new AORs that will be operating either side of the ditch, I'd say it was a pretty fair bet that the new AOR Aotearoa will offer a significant increase in capability over the now retired Endeavour, so the potential to provide 'service' to ships, other than NZ ships, could be significant.

That of course could be counterbalanced to a degree by the fact that Aotearoa will have a much broader role that Endeavour, especially operations in the Southern Ocean.

Anyway, time will tell.

 

[John Newman]

Hi John

Many on DT share your interest on this subject and suggest we could all take it many directions.
With out getting into fantasy fleets, I think the starting point will be for government / defence to put some future plan into concrete.
The DWP16 seems years away which really it isn't, but with a recent federal election and some Geo / Political uncertainty in the region, both near and far,
a revamp of defence procurement in some area may need some greater clarity.
Maybe not a new white paper, but a statement of recognition that their are some defence capabilities that may need to be brought forward or introduced.
The recent statement re SPG's for the Army seemingly came out of the blue, so I'm sure some specific defence needs may be on the near horizon that are not in the DWP16.
Maybe that 3rd AOR / LSD / Pacific support ship what ever, may be clarified and ordered.

Regards S

PS - If I could turn back the clock it would of been 3 x LHD's and 3 x AOR's.

Arhhhh well!

Mate, yes it is an interesting subject.

Whilst I'm not expecting to see a completely new DWP in the short term, I think it would be reasonable to expect to see an 'updated' DIIP sooner than later, and by new DIIP, I mean a public DIIP. In the past it was the 'norm' that despite the time gap in new DWPs being published, there was a regular yearly update of the DIIP (previously known as the DCP).

Just have to wait and see (might be worth sending the new Def Min an email to ask the question??).

Cheers,

PS, As for fantasy fleets, well I steer well clear of that (been around here long enough NOT to open up that can of worms!!!). I always try to stick within the realms of reality, dollars, manpower, etc.

As for your 'turn back the clock' fleet, I disagree, not 3 x LHDs, to me that is not balanced, that is top heavy, to me a more balanced fleet (and within the realms of reality) is 2 x LHDs, 2 x LSD/LPD, an enhanced LCH replacement, and yes 3 x AORs to support those ships and their escorts.

Anyway, the 'fantasy fleet' discussion is an endless circle, and we all know what happens if you go in endless circles, you eventually disappear up inside your own arsehole!!!

 

[hauritz]

Mate, yes it is an interesting subject.

Whilst I'm not expecting to see a completely new DWP in the short term, I think it would be reasonable to expect to see an 'updated' DIIP sooner than later, and by new DIIP, I mean a public DIIP. In the past it was the 'norm' that despite the time gap in new DWPs being published, there was a regular yearly update of the DIIP (previously known as the DCP).

Just have to wait and see (might be worth sending the new Def Min an email to ask the question??).

Cheers,

PS, As for fantasy fleets, well I steer well clear of that (been around here long enough NOT to open up that can of worms!!!). I always try to stick within the realms of reality, dollars, manpower, etc.

As for your 'turn back the clock' fleet, I disagree, not 3 x LHDs, to me that is not balanced, that is top heavy, to me a more balanced fleet (and within the realms of reality) is 2 x LHDs, 2 x LSD/LPD, an enhanced LCH replacement, and yes 3 x AORs to support those ships and their escorts.

Anyway, the 'fantasy fleet' discussion is an endless circle, and we all know what happens if you go in endless circles, you eventually disappear up inside your own arsehole!!!

In this day and age, new DWPs should be created at fairly regular intervals, say every 5 or 6 years. Australia has to deal with a deteriorating strategic environment and technological advancements that could render a lot of the equipment identified in the 2016 DWP obsolete before it hits the water or takes to the air.

Do we need another defence white paper, and what should it say? | The Strategist

 

[John Newman]

In this day and age, new DWPs should be created at fairly regular intervals, say every 5 or 6 years. Australia has to deal with a deteriorating strategic environment and technological advancements that could render a lot of the equipment identified in the 2016 DWP obsolete before it hits the water or takes to the air.

Do we need another defence white paper, and what should it say? | The Strategist

Actually DWPs have been produced, on average, at shorter intervals that 5-6 years.

Starting from the beginning of this century, we've had a DWP in 2000, 2003, 2009, 2013 and 2016, three year gap between 2000 and 2003, six year gap between 2003 and 2009, four year gap between 2009 and 2013, and three year gap between 2013 and 2016.

And you've also got to look at who was in Government at the time of each new DWP, 2000 (LNP), 2003 (LNP), 2009 (ALP), 2013 (ALP), and 2016 (LNP). Looking at the 'politics' of Government, the current one was re-elected in May this year (2019), another election is not due until May 2022.

So when will we see a new DWP? Whilst the current DWP is not a Morrison DWP, it is a DWP of the LNP, the current Government does have 'ownership' of the DWP.

I'd expect to see a new/updated DWP before the end of their term in May 2022, that's two and a half years away, probably not next year, maybe some time in mid 2021, probably just before the 2021 May Budget.

At the very least I'd like to see an updated and public DIIP between now and then.

Anyway, just a guess on my part.

Cheers,