German Navy

[Calculus]

According to this, the German MKS 180 will be a 10,000 ton ship: Final decision on German Navy’s 10,000-ton MKS180 facing delays again

This seems to rule out BAE and a T26 variant.

 

[John Fedup]

That is a shame considering how far the Germany military has declined and certainly their navy has its issues. The UK wouldn’t buy into a German frigate either I guess.

 

[StobieWan]

That is a shame considering how far the Germany military has declined and certainly their navy has its issues. The UK wouldn’t buy into a German frigate either I guess.

There's a MEKO design in the Type 31e competition actually.

I don't think there *is* a 10K hull that fits the bill - so, any competitor will be looking to upscale an existing design.

 

[mariohot]

There are a few points relevant to this "European Aircraft Carrier":

• In February 2003 at the Le Touquet Anglo-French summit Jaques Chirac and Tony Blair agreed to work towards a pooled carrier capability for supporting the then-planned European RRF. It was planned to involve other European nations in this, in particular Italy and Spain with existing capabilities. That's the basic idea behind the whole thing.
  
• At the time the defense spokesman of the CDU publicly endorsed the idea of a pooled/shared European carrier capability and endorsed that Germany "should join such an initiative". The same guy went on to stay as a parliamentary secretary (lower-rank minister) at the German MoD until 2013 and then was Federal Minister of Agriculture and later Federal Minister of Transport in Merkel's cabinets - in other words we're talking about a defense spokesman deep in Merkel's circles. He was kicked off the government bench with the new coalition a few months ago.
  
• The primary opponent of the above plan decided to quit Europe in June 2016.
  
• France is - since October 2018 - running a study to evaluate future requirements for a successor to Charles de Gaulle, to commission in the timeframe of 2030-2035. Set requirements include compatibility with the Franco-German Rafale/Eurofighter successor. According to a statement of the French Minister of the Armed Forces, part of the studies is evaluating "how many carriers will be required for French and European interests".

And then after that comes the Treaty of Aachen.

Do Germany still have plans for LHD ship(ships) or they abondoned such plans?..I read that plans were 2 such large LHD ships plus 3-4 small (Endurance class in Singapore?)

 

[hauritz]

According to this, the German MKS 180 will be a 10,000 ton ship: Final decision on German Navy’s 10,000-ton MKS180 facing delays again

This seems to rule out BAE and a T26 variant.

I don't know ... at 8800 tons the Type 26 isn't too far shy of the mark. The mission bay would also match up with the German requirements of a ship that could carry out a number of tasks that may need a range of different configurations. Having said that I couldn't really see the German's buying British.

 

[seaspear]

I read the article about final decision where it stated having a surface to air missile system capable of hitting targets 25 kilometres away ,that was all the article stated on this need was this a typo ?

 

[hauritz]

I read the article about final decision where it stated having a surface to air missile system capable of hitting targets 25 kilometres away ,that was all the article stated on this need was this a typo ?

The F125 is a pretty lightly armed ship ... all it has is a couple of RAM Launchers. The MKS 180 is described as a Multi-Mission Destroyer which kind of sounds like the F-125s slightly bigger brother.

 

[Systems Adict]

According to this, the German MKS 180 will be a 10,000 ton ship: Final decision on German Navy’s 10,000-ton MKS180 facing delays again

This seems to rule out BAE and a T26 variant.

As stated elsewhere in the thread, at 8.8K GRT, a T26 is no 10K GRT frigate, but then again, is 10k GRT not a destroyer ?

However, widening / Lengthening a T26, or for that matter a T45 design would probably give the Navy what they want.

All that said, the wouldn't want an Arleigh Burke Flt IIA, as it's from the USA & will be fully ITAR restricted & a T26/45 design involves non German companies, thus taking away from maintaining a nations sovereign rite to design & build their own ships, possibly to the detriment of the nations economy.

SA

 

[swerve]

...
... a T26/45 design involves non German companies, thus taking away from maintaining a nations sovereign rite to design & build their own ships, possibly to the detriment of the nations economy.

SA

The F125 has an Italian gun firing Italian ammunition, US/German SAMs with US components, Italian RWSs for HMGs, & currently, US SSMs.

Other German warships have Dutch radars, US SAMs, US gas turbines, Franco-Italian torpedoes, etc.

The F125 is a pretty lightly armed ship ... all it has is a couple of RAM Launchers. The MKS 180 is described as a Multi-Mission Destroyer which kind of sounds like the F-125s slightly bigger brother.

A couple of RAM launchers, 8 SSMs, a 127mm gun with Vulcano ammunition, two helicopters & some small guns.

The F125 isn't exactly small. I think it has room for more weapons & sensors.

 

[seaspear]

With regards o the question of the MKS-180 and its tonnage increasing which measurement for tonnage is used in this case , previously other ships have been recorded in different weights because of this
I did come across a utube clip claiming the MKS180 of being equipped with between 24-36 vls for essm but have not found any further information to support this

 

[ASSAIL]

I find the German obsession with larger surface ships at odds with the reality of her strategic consequence.
The utility of such ships as additional NATO units is marginal IMHO, there are already a plethora of largish surface combatants filling that role.
Germany has mostly excelled at submarine the design, construction and deployment of her U Boats and the European theatre, including the near Arctic and the Med, would be substantially boosted by a large increase in larger conventional submarines armed with both torpedoes and SSMs.
This contribution would far outweigh the alternative provided by the MKS180

 

[vonnoobie]

To be fair the number of ships they did have is gradually reducing but being replaced with larger ships. That being said I have to wonder do they need ships this large.. Not up to date on German naval deployments, Do they tend to go global thus requiring a larger ship or are they more locally focused making such ships pointless? The other factor is for such massive ships they are very limited on the armament's. Is it a matter of fitted for but not with or wanting to have nice big ships but not have them armed too much so not to offend any one? I am honestly stumped. I would imagine a half dozen larger ships, dozen or so corvettes and a dozen or so submarines would be better suited to there needs. Oh well just my ramblings.

 

[swerve]

The F125 is big & relatively lightly armed, but that seems to be a response to pressure to assist with peacekeeping & NATO out of area interventions. Built for long deployments far from home, against less than peer opponents.

I find the German obsession with larger surface ships at odds with the reality of her strategic consequence.
The utility of such ships as additional NATO units is marginal IMHO, there are already a plethora of largish surface combatants filling that role.
Germany has mostly excelled at submarine the design, construction and deployment of her U Boats and the European theatre, including the near Arctic and the Med, would be substantially boosted by a large increase in larger conventional submarines armed with both torpedoes and SSMs.
This contribution would far outweigh the alternative provided by the MKS180

Since 1990, Germany has disposed of seven destroyers, six frigates, & 40 fast attack craft, & commissioned three destroyers, four frigates & five corvettes. Four more frigates are currently with the builders. The oldest current frigates will be retired when the problems with the F125s are sorted out..Doesn't look much like an obsession with bigger ships to me.

 

[ASSAIL]

The F125 is big & relatively lightly armed, but that

The F125 is big & relatively lightly armed, but that seems to be a response to pressure to assist with peacekeeping & NATO out of area interventions. Built for long deployments far from home, against less than peer opponents.


Since 1990, Germany has disposed of seven destroyers, six frigates, & 40 fast attack craft, & commissioned three destroyers, four frigates & five corvettes. Four more frigates are currently with the builders. The oldest current frigates will be retired when the problems with the F125s are sorted out..Doesn't look much like an obsession with bigger ships to me.

i think the “obsession” was referring to the historical context repeating itself. Trying to compete with the RN Dreadnoughts in WW1 and Raeder’s fascination with Battleships at the expense of U Boats in the pre WW2 years.
In both cases that was folly and the UBoats proved to be their best asset by a country mile.
A 10,000 tonne AB cousin takes resources away from their historical comparative advantage, the submarine force.
Even though Europe has changed dramatically since the 20th century the threat posed by submarines far outweighs the threat of extra surface combatants in the NATO Orbat which is top heavy with big SSNs and needs the addition of SSGs in the littorals

 

[Stampede]

i think the “obsession” was referring to the historical context repeating itself. Trying to compete with the RN Dreadnoughts in WW1 and Raeder’s fascination with Battleships at the expense of U Boats in the pre WW2 years.
In both cases that was folly and the UBoats proved to be their best asset by a country mile.
A 10,000 tonne AB cousin takes resources away from their historical comparative advantage, the submarine force.
Even though Europe has changed dramatically since the 20th century the threat posed by submarines far outweighs the threat of extra surface combatants in the NATO Orbat which is top heavy with big SSNs and needs the addition of SSGs in the littorals

I think Germany needs to figure out how far it wants to operate from home.
Regarding its surface fleet.
Do thy want some contributors to the European NATO fleet only, or do they want to build up a sovereign naval force for distant voyages.
If the later, then I can understand the larger ships, but it will be a package deal.
That Deal will be enough to provide sufficient numbers to do the job properly. Probably a minimum of three MKS 180 plus 6 to 9 large escorts complimented by three supply ships and maybe a couple of large aviation support ships to add to the mix.
This will provide for a 5 to 6 ship task force and some ability to sustain such a force.
All pretty serious stuff and of course a great expense and commitment.
So I agree with the tradition of the U boat and the bang for buck this bring a country like Germany for it's size and geography.
Money may well be better spent on the Army and Air force me thinks.
That's the lot with being in the centre on Europe.
A big surface fleet is not a priority.


Regards S

 

[swerve]

As I understand it, other NATO countries complained that Germany wasn't pulling its weight in distant deployments. There's no question of a "sovereign naval force for distant voyages": it's built (in the form of the not-yet-commissioned F125s) a force to participate in NATO "distant voyages", as asked for by its NATO allies. Whether that was well-judged or not, it doesn't seem to have been Germany doing it on its own initiative, to further German national aims.

Any German distant deployments will be with allies. There is no prospect of an all-German task force, so no need to build a fleet able to put one together. The package will consist of German ships plus allied ships, so there's no need for a full-spectrum German navy.

 

[mariohot]

Do Germany still have plans for LHD ship(ships) or they abondoned such plans?..I read that plans were 2 such large LHD ships plus 3-4 small (Endurance class in Singapore?)

 

[ngatimozart]

Do Germany still have plans for LHD ship(ships) or they abondoned such plans?..I read that plans were 2 such large LHD ships plus 3-4 small (Endurance class in Singapore?)

You asked exactly the same question five days ago, basically word for word. It looks like people on here are unaware of this development at all. Maybe you could research it a bit more for us and then inform us of your results. Please provide links and / or sources for material that you find. It would be appreciated, thanks.

 

[John Fedup]

Do Germany still have plans for LHD ship(ships) or they abondoned such plans?..I read that plans were 2 such large LHD ships plus 3-4 small (Endurance class in Singapore?)

Doesn’t seem to be any acquisition plans for a German LHD although a concept design has been shown by B&V. There is a cooperative agreement with the Netherlands to have German forces operate off the Karl Doorman.

thyssenkrupp Marine Systems GmbH

 

[vonnoobie]

Goes back to a plan dating between 1995 and 2010 this has not been mentioned since, There were several diffreent options on the fleet make up with the most likely one at the time being 2 x JSS 800 (Ship between 27,000 and 30,000 tons with 800 troops) and 3 x JSS 400's (Ship circa 20,000 tons and 400 troops). It has pretty much gone the exact same way at the LCH replacement in Australia, Plans made and then poof no more mention ever again by government or the armed forces.

Joint Support Ship / Taktische Konzept Mehrzweckschiff (TKM) / Einsatz Truppenunterstützungsschiff (ETrUS)
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