Royal Canadian Navy Discussions and updates

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
There is always money for priorities.

I don't see Canada making Aegis and CEC a priority.
From the article:

Without CEC, it is difficult to see Canadian warships working effectively within future multi-national maritime forces, let alone ever again assuming the command role.
I don't buy the loss of sovereignty. Australia will still have 9LV, its Ceafar radars and other weapons and systems and its surface combatants, OPV's, amphibious ships and AORs. Aegis adds, it doesn't take away. If you don't want to link up, you don't have to. However, I will admit I wasn't aware of the two combat system arrangement until Australia announced it, even though Japan and Korea had used it before. The UK also talked about integrating CEC, but it never happened. Not really clear why, money may have been an issue.

From Australia's point of view, we definitely want to be able to command our own group. Having the US provide a cruiser to do air nearly broke the whole operation for a whole bunch of reasons that weren't really clear until you try it. Also, nations may be more inclined to sign up to an Australian lead US supported operation, than a US lead operation, including the US.

For Australia it is much more important that we can lead and network an Aegis task force, than a single ship having 96 VLS. If we need that, we hit up Japan, US for a destroyer or two. Not all Burkes have CEC, only recently upgraded ones AFAIK.

With East Timor, the US military was more than capable of basically running that, however, politically, there was no support for it in Washington. US did eventually send assets and some support (but no combat troops), but it wasn't comprehensive.

I would argue without being able to build and lead a multinational naval task force (let alone a complete mission which would involve air, land and sea elements) you have weakened your sovereign position. Australia isn't worried about a US commander firing our missiles without our deliberation, we are worried about the US not turning up. If they do turn up, we want to call the shots, set engagement. Generally. The US current stance is probably amenable to that as well (as well as the wider region). Even if the US doesn't turn up (immediately), we are likely to go forward anyway even at less ambitious outcomes (the US does have a habit of coming on later, and claiming victory).

I guess it comes down to what you see your country doing in international affairs. Each nation faces a different set of values and challenges and sees a different role for itself. You have to spend a lot of time looking at your own national reflection and questioning who you are to come up with those answers.
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Sorry, I should have included it.
https://www.jhuapl.edu/techdigest/td/td1604/APLteam.pdf - page 19.

Its a dated reference (1995) but actually goes through a lot of the basics which a lot of other papers/articles assume knowledge of.

Cooperative Engagement Capability (CEC) / AN/USG-2(V) Cooperative Engagement Transmission Processing Set also has a dated reference material as well.

But part of CEC is being able to track a threat from multiple platforms to get a firing solution. For something like Sm-3, you really need information before it comes over the horizon, and for accuracy you might need to merge data from multiple sensors, and sensor types (IR + Radar (multiple bands) + other).



Ignore the SM-2 block IVA, think SM-3. But not just that, the range of SM-6 makes CEC type data sharing very useful in long range, hard to track or high altitude stuff.

For Canada, it probably isn't a huge priority right now, and they may not do what the RAN did and give every ship CEC capability. The USN only gives cruisers and airborne stuff that capability, which is then pushed out to the rest of the fleet from those nodes. So Canada might only include Aegis and CEC on 4 or 5 ships that would be tasked with air command duties, if they decide that. Japan for example, has only recently included CEC on their very latest ships (3?). Australia putting CEC on everyship raises eyebrows.

The type 26 will have an aegis variant on the Australian spec ships, so they might decide to wait for the first one of those to hit the water and utilize that layout, rather than reinvent the wheel.
I have no source but I imagine the RAN has decided to equip every escort with CEC is because it’s inevitable that RAN units will be deployed with US TGs should th SHTF.
They may be spread across multiple CBGs or amphibious TGs and would need to actively contribute to the defence of those assets particularly BMD.

Naturally they would operate together in less critical operations with the RAAF but without US involvement where the capability is a massive improvement in the tactical picture.
OT
But frankly, I find it hard to find an argument for not fitting CEC as it downgrades a platforms warfare capability. The RN needs to remedy this urgently if it wishes to continue to make SCS deployment a regular occurrence.

Everything that StingrayOZ said above I support, sorry if I overlapped but I think we were drafting concurrently.
 

Calculus

Well-Known Member
There is always money for priorities.

I don't see Canada making Aegis and CEC a priority.
Not sure how you come to that conclusion. It's been publicly stated now that CSC will have CEC, Aegis, and a top end radar (possibly a variant of the LM LRDR). Please refer to post 1560, and watch the video. Also, the RCN has stated (in Leadmark 2050) that the CSC will be able to lead a naval task group, as well as survive in a "high-intensity operating environment". This will be a high-end piece of kit, and will likely have capabilities beyond those of the Hunter class.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Saw that article too. The graphic showed two rows of missile tube launchers but my eyes aren’t good enough to count the actual number. Probably doesn’t matter as there have been so many different configurations that it is just more idle speculation (but we love that!):D
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Not sure how you come to that conclusion. It's been publicly stated now that CSC will have CEC, Aegis, and a top end radar (possibly a variant of the LM LRDR). Please refer to post 1560, and watch the video. Also, the RCN has stated (in Leadmark 2050) that the CSC will be able to lead a naval task group, as well as survive in a "high-intensity operating environment". This will be a high-end piece of kit, and will likely have capabilities beyond those of the Hunter class.
I am not sure if the video (sales presentation) is confirmation of CSC having an Aegis interface. I vaguely recall the Leadmark2050 suggesting the requirement to lead a task group but did it mention CEC as a requirement to do this?
 

Calculus

Well-Known Member
I am not sure if the video (sales presentation) is confirmation of CSC having an Aegis interface. I vaguely recall the Leadmark2050 suggesting the requirement to lead a task group but did it mention CEC as a requirement to do this?
Canada has been in discussions to acquire this capability for a number of years. The link below alludes to this on page 31, as an active FMS case.

https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a614736.pdf
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Again, in discussions, isn’t very concrete confirmation. The line from page 31, “The FMS cases are deemed sensitive by the individual countries” seems to indicate the lingering concern over who controls weapons. Can you imagine a Liberal or Conservative minority government getting CEC past the NDP?
 

Calculus

Well-Known Member
Again, in discussions, isn’t very concrete confirmation. The line from page 31, “The FMS cases are deemed sensitive by the individual countries” seems to indicate the lingering concern over who controls weapons. Can you imagine a Liberal or Conservative minority government getting CEC past the NDP?
Perhaps. I just included the link to show that it is very much in consideration, as there were comments on here to the contrary. It's a capability that the RCN is actively pursuing.
 

Calculus

Well-Known Member
I am not sure if the video (sales presentation) is confirmation of CSC having an Aegis interface. I vaguely recall the Leadmark2050 suggesting the requirement to lead a task group but did it mention CEC as a requirement to do this?
Hi John, while not specifically referenced, Leadmark 2050 is peppered with references to such a capability. For example, of p.44: "The task group's operational network knits together platforms that are often separated by dozens, sometimes hundreds, of kilometers." and "The operational network allows the kinetic and non-kinetic systems of each task group platform to be integrated by commanders in ways that greatly exceed the sum of their individual contributions". P.55 also has a lot of text describing what is clearly a CEC-like capability. While I suppose this could be a non-US system (the French have recently announced the development of a similar capability), given the RCN's deep integration with the USN, I would find it unlikely.
 

Mattshel

Member
Hi John, while not specifically referenced, Leadmark 2050 is peppered with references to such a capability. For example, of p.44: "The task group's operational network knits together platforms that are often separated by dozens, sometimes hundreds, of kilometers." and "The operational network allows the kinetic and non-kinetic systems of each task group platform to be integrated by commanders in ways that greatly exceed the sum of their individual contributions". P.55 also has a lot of text describing what is clearly a CEC-like capability. While I suppose this could be a non-US system (the French have recently announced the development of a similar capability), given the RCN's deep integration with the USN, I would find it unlikely.
At this point, I do not see many European options being utilized in the design, short of products offered by Euro Headquartered Partners in the program. Realistically as well, what the Navy wants and what they will ultimately get will likely differ in a meaningful way based off of the Politics of the day.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
I read about the hard landing on Asterix yesterday, no injuries or damage to Asterix but the CH-148 damage is being accessed. An investigation as to what actually happened is underway. Landing a heavy beast like the CH-148 on a ship is a challenge at the best of times. No details available on conditions at the time in the article I read.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
Not sure how you come to that conclusion. It's been publicly stated now that CSC will have CEC, Aegis, and a top end radar (possibly a variant of the LM LRDR). Please refer to post 1560, and watch the video. Also, the RCN has stated (in Leadmark 2050) that the CSC will be able to lead a naval task group, as well as survive in a "high-intensity operating environment". This will be a high-end piece of kit, and will likely have capabilities beyond those of the Hunter class.
As I said before, I am skeptical.

The UK has also stated its aim was to acquire CEC. That still hasn't happened. Australia was the first international customer for CEC and its has been integrated into our destroyers, and our destroyers will be upgraded from Aegis to our Aegis/9LV combo. We have tested our CEC capability. Its real here today on our destroyers.

Saying you want the capability to lead a multinational task group and leading a multinational task group are two different things. What is the task group doing? High intensity operating environment is also fairly open ended. What is the level of integration? Is it messages via radio or morse code? Where is the announcement and the procurement of said high end equipment. The combat system is a big one. Unless Canada intends to develop its own BMD missile system at greater cost and at greater man hours than SM-3 (which the Japanese joined the development of, so you really have to look at the effort expended on Japan and US BMD programs (SM-3 and others)) then I don't see how.

I am skeptical. Canada just purchased a 30 year old aircraft and intends to put it on the front line. By definition, Canada intends to integrate a 30+ year old aircraft (from a 40+ year old design) at the same time as Australia has fully integrated the F-35 squadrons and maintain its F-18 Super-hornet squadrons. Australia has E7 aircraft operational with CEC installed on those, Canada doesn't have that aircraft type. Australia is getting all new much more survivable land vehicles, Canada is proposing a very light upgrade of its existing ancient fleet. Australia is approaching 2% GDP and has said 2% isn't a limit, Canada is barely at 1% and shows minimal signs of improving and is likely to see whole type of capabilities waste away (subs, air-combat, etc).

Not that there isn't time to change. Not that Canada can't do it. Not that there aren't options beyond what is discussed. I am just skeptical.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Not sure how you come to that conclusion. It's been publicly stated now that CSC will have CEC, Aegis, and a top end radar (possibly a variant of the LM LRDR). Please refer to post 1560, and watch the video. Also, the RCN has stated (in Leadmark 2050) that the CSC will be able to lead a naval task group, as well as survive in a "high-intensity operating environment". This will be a high-end piece of kit, and will likely have capabilities beyond those of the Hunter class.
As I said before, I am skeptical.

I am skeptical. Canada just purchased a 30 year old aircraft and intends to put it on the front line. By definition, Canada intends to integrate a 30+ year old aircraft (from a 40+ year old design) at the same time as Australia has fully integrated the F-35 squadrons and maintain its F-18 Super-hornet squadrons. Australia has E7 aircraft operational with CEC installed on those, Canada doesn't have that aircraft type. Australia is getting all new much more survivable land vehicles, Canada is proposing a very light upgrade of its existing ancient fleet. Australia is approaching 2% GDP and has said 2% isn't a limit, Canada is barely at 1% and shows minimal signs of improving and is likely to see whole type of capabilities waste away (subs, air-combat, etc).

Not that there isn't time to change. Not that Canada can't do it. Not that there aren't options beyond what is discussed. I am just skeptical.
I am quite sceptical as well and have now reached the point with regard to both Canadian and Indian defence procurement that I won't believe it until I see it delivered. They both talk the talk but don't walk the walk, in that they have these big plans that end up being little subtexts. Harsh but true.
 

Calculus

Well-Known Member
Scuttlebutt around Ottawa is the second supply ship will be built immediately after the first, not after the OOSV, as reported in this article: Ottawa pushes navy's planned supply ships to the front of the construction queue | CBC News

So, with any luck, it will be JSS1, JSS2, OOSV, heavy icebreaker. Sensible decision.

Though I have not seen any "official" confirmation of this, the following article would seem to confirm the rumour: N.L. company gets $10M contract to refit 56-year-old coast guard ship | CBC News. Why spend the money on an extensive refit if a replacement was just around the corner.

Seaspan has updated the drawing of the JSS: Joint Support Ships | Seaspan

Interestingly, there are now 2 CIWS stations. The last drawing I saw only had the one.
 

Mattshel

Member
I am quite sceptical as well and have now reached the point with regard to both Canadian and Indian defence procurement that I won't believe it until I see it delivered. They both talk the talk but don't walk the walk, in that they have these big plans that end up being little subtexts. Harsh but true.
Agreed, it is pretty bad when the best ran projects for the CAF have been ones without any sort of competition.
 
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