Nein, thanks: Germany snubs F-35, new fighter choice still up in air

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
I dont think that Germany should give up the ability to build advanced fighter jets itself. Same counts for France.

By buying F35, Germany would lose its own knowledge about building such things.
That's already lost - Germany's last design lead for a fixed wing fighter was what ? The Me262 ? They've made bits for the Tornado and Typhoon but their contribution to Typhoon was the FCS, which they struggled with tremendously until substantial input was provided by BAE's UK teams. Literally, the German check list of fighters reads something like F104G > Phantom > Typhoon. Unless I'm missing something here, Germany doesn't have and hasn't had the ability to design and construct advanced fighter jets since 1945. I'm not being funny here but if your argument hangs on the fact that Germany as a parts supplier for Tornado and Typhoon can't benefit from constructing parts for the F35, I think I'm missing something in the line of reasoning.

I don't hold much hope out for either the Franco-German project or the UK Tempest either - unless one of those projects can team up with Japanese or Indian customers, I suspect both will run out of money and political will.

The future will be a joint project with international partners much like the F35 - anything else will be too great a burden to bear I think.
 

seaspear

Well-Known Member
France considers the F35 a potential competitor by 2040 to the project , but many of the European countries would have been flying the F35 by then so which European countries would share the development costs and be in the market for it ,if France has an aircraft carrier it will need to replace the Rafale ,the F35c is a competitor there too .
I can go into the massive cost overruns and history of the Eurofighter , that these cost overruns were ceased publishing over ten years ago for confidentiality reasons ,it might be that the Eurofighter is more expensive than the F22 ,but perhaps the reason for this program by France Germany and Spain is to subsidise strategic industries not to address concerns about the air forces and provide value for money for the taxpayer or even to get the best aircraft possible
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
Why I got the feeling in the end German will go 100% Eurofighter, before they go with French on whatever new gen that will come out as Eurofighter and Rafale replacement.

What Trump and in lesser extent Brexit create is seems making German more French on defense matter. More independent Euro First in defense.
Also what if post Brexit relations between the UK and the EU (Germany) go south (quite testy I think it will be if a no deal Brexit happens which is becoming likely) and pressure from Whitehall is bought to bear on BAE not to not "cooperate" as seamlessly as they had done in the past on the Typhoon.
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
Also what if post Brexit relations between the UK and the EU (Germany) go south (quite testy I think it will be if a no deal Brexit happens which is becoming likely) and pressure from Whitehall is bought to bear on BAE not to not "cooperate" as seamlessly as they had done in the past on the Typhoon.

Brexit is irrelevant - we co-operated to varying degrees of success on Concorde Jaguar and Puma for instance, before any mention of an economic union.for example - the UK didn't join the EU until 1973, by which time the Jaguar was pretty much in service and a lot of the Tornado work had been done.


Did the US not being a part of the EU stop Germany co-operating with the US on RAM?

Honestly, on defence project co-operation, Brexit is a low impact factor because the EU is an economic, not a security arrangement. We're still co-operating with the French on various arrangements like air to surface and surface to surface missiles, and potentially could cooperate or not with various EU or non EU countries.afterwards.

Honestly, there are impacts for all parties regarding the UK's illogical and dysfunctional approach to Brexit (and I speak as a UK national) but defence co-operation is fuelled by a number of factors:

A common requirement - do the parties have overlapping needs for a product
A disparate but overlapping skill set - can each party bring something to the table - sensors, propulsion etc
A contractual frame work - such as if each parties main defence contractors were already linked by a structural entity such as say..MBDA...

There are other things but honestly, of the things mentioned in this thread, Brexit, not so much and Trump not at all - the UK has coperated with EU countries before joining the EU and the US has changed presidents after four years, which is about a third of the life of most defence contracts.
 

seaspear

Well-Known Member
In the past common sense has given way to national interest Eurofighter had several e.g. France left the Eurofighter program to develop Rafale ,and attempted to pressure Spain to leave the then project
France and Germany are also pushing the idea of a European army how is the commitment to N.A.T.O effected ?
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
I am not entirely convinced in that a potential acrimonious Brexit will see all vested parties make the economic and security relationship (which now having broken the cover of an economic relationship will meet the real politique of balancing security and an uncertain trading relationship that is likely to have a certain level of toxicity for some time as a hangover) will always go swimmingly, all of the time, based on past project performance a generation ago. By vested parties I also include the US.
 

Thüringer

Member
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  • #47
Why not? As I understand it, that is what the Eurofighter consortium has conducted. There are four assembly plants, one in each partner nation, which assembles the Eurofighters for parts provided by each of the partner nations, with each partner nation having production facilities responsible for manufacturing certain specific parts. Please correct me if I have this wrong, but from what I have come across it seems that none of the Eurofighter partner nations is able to produce a completely domestic Eurofighter.

Because German renomee is in producing worldclass engineering products. frigates, tanks, submarines, aircrafts weapons ect. If you start to downplay your production line, you start losing renomee and sales.

Germany developed the Eurofighter. But Germany played no role in development of the F35. It is not in the interest of Germany to step in line on a level as Bangladesh or India as purely production country without the developing part.
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
Because German renomee is in producing worldclass engineering products. frigates, tanks, submarines, aircrafts weapons ect. If you start to downplay your production line, you start losing renomee and sales.

Germany developed the Eurofighter. But Germany played no role in development of the F35. It is not in the interest of Germany to step in line on a level as Bangladesh or India as purely production country without the developing part.
Germany hasn't been design lead for a fighter since WWII.

They build parts for Typhoon right now, that's the extent of their expertise. There is no design capability to lose.
 

Thüringer

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  • #49
Germany hasn't been design lead for a fighter since WWII.

They build parts for Typhoon right now, that's the extent of their expertise. There is no design capability to lose.
The typhoon was developed in Germany. The F35 was not. Thats the difference.

Buying a foreign build jet with zero national connection would be a degradation of german engineering in the world.

Another problem is that for a strategic point of view, USA is not seen as trustworthy partner. Merkel said this in public last year and repeated it several times.

The primary goal for Germany is to forge the EU closer together and strengthen european defense. Buying a US jet would undermine that as well.

Politics play a huge role in this decission.

Lockheed said they would send production of F35 to Germany. It appears that was not enough. Lockheed even went so far when they saw they lose the contract to say Germany could learn from building F35 for their own jet project.
 
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seaspear

Well-Known Member
The Typhoon was developed by several international companies Airbus,Bae systems and Leonardo it co-ordinates through Eurofighter Jagdflugzeug in Bavaria that was set up for this , the need for such an aircraft was identified in the seventies and several different plans drawn up independently by the U.K and Germany France was initially a partner but withdrew to follow its own plans .
One of the reasons it was headquartered in Germany was because Germany was placing the largest order of aircraft ,this was cut back after Kohl in 1990 tried to end Germany's involvement in the program because of cost in an election pledge ,but found that contracts and financial commitments already commenced prevented this
There are pages of articles on the political disputes funding disputes, massive cost overruns that would not fit in this forum
President Merkel may decline to be involved in the F35 because Germany was not involved in the partnership funding of the F35 in tiers like the U.K Italy Austria Canada,Norway,Denmark,Netherlands,Turkey and special development partners like Israel Japan and Singapore , if there was a reason Germany was not involved like the other countries perhaps Merkel would know
Lockheed might be right in its comment
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Given the Typhoon development history it is not a stretch that Germany and France could diverge on requirements although there will be pressure for this not to happen. Like all big military projects costs escalate. With no UK and likely minimal contributions from Spain and Italy, the two primes will have to carry most of the financial burden. Will France want a CATOBAR version of this future jet? Can’t see Germany wanting to fund that. Another A400M experience?
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
The typhoon was developed in Germany. The F35 was not. Thats the difference.

Buying a foreign build jet with zero national connection would be a degradation of german engineering in the world.

Another problem is that for a strategic point of view, USA is not seen as trustworthy partner. Merkel said this in public last year and repeated it several times.

The primary goal for Germany is to forge the EU closer together and strengthen european defense. Buying a US jet would undermine that as well.

Politics play a huge role in this decission.

Lockheed said they would send production of F35 to Germany. It appears that was not enough. Lockheed even went so far when they saw they lose the contract to say Germany could learn from building F35 for their own jet project.
From what you are saying it sounds as though Germany wants to go it alone. Good luck with that.
 

Thüringer

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  • #53
From what you are saying it sounds as though Germany wants to go it alone. Good luck with that.
With all due respect, the F35 development story is not a great story either. I find it odd to blame Germany for budget explosions at the Eurofighter development, when the F35 had even bigger cost explosions.

It appears Berlin does not want an american jet and a jet it was not part in its development. It also appears, the F18 is only a smokescreen and will not be chosen as well.

Lots of intervention from german aviation industry against the american product as well as media stirring bad vibes against it. German Bild newspaper wrote the headline months ago, that buying F35 would mean to kneel infront Trump.

@Thüringer You've been warned about politics once before. Anymore political posts and you'll be facing a ban. Consider this a final warning. This is your second warning in two weeks for the same offence.

Ngatimozart
 
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MarcH

Member
That's already lost - Germany's last design lead for a fixed wing fighter was what ? The Me262 ? They've made bits for the Tornado and Typhoon but their contribution to Typhoon was the FCS, which they struggled with tremendously until substantial input was provided by BAE's UK teams.
This is wrong IMHO. The Eurofighter is based on the German TKF 90. The British proposal was a F-18 look-a-like.

Also what if post Brexit relations between the UK and the EU (Germany) go south (quite testy I think it will be if a no deal Brexit happens which is becoming likely) and pressure from Whitehall is bought to bear on BAE not to not "cooperate" as seamlessly as they had done in the past on the Typhoon.
At least currently the contrary is the case. We have more cooperation than ever between Luftwaffe and RAF, crew exchanges, twinning of Conningsby and Laage coordinaton of future developments. The British Brimstone missile is already on the shopping list, with a contract most likely signed this year. Should include the Cobham launcher. And the UK may leave the EU, but there is still NATO.

It is not in the interest of Germany to step in line on a level as Bangladesh or India as purely production country without the developing part.
That is one of several conflicting interests. It would be nice from you to acknowledge, that the F-35 is currently the only game in town for a future proof Tornado replacement. It's the only LO airframe available and it's in different league regarding situational awareness. Having acces to MADL is actually a big thing.

Since all efforts to find a replacement for the SIGINT Antlantiques failed the F-35's abilities would be a godsent. And IF nuklear sharing is still desired the F-35 is the best choice, too.

Of course there are disadvantages. Only single engined, dependend on ALIS, depot maintenance of the engine in Erdoghanistan and so on.

Regarding the new French-German fighter: it is mostly a French aircraft, built to French requirements. Dassault is project lead. The level of German workshare remains to be seen.

Imho it's too small, basically the same size as Rafale. But the French want to operate it from the CdG.
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
This is wrong IMHO. The Eurofighter is based on the German TKF 90. The British proposal was a F-18 look-a-like.


At least currently the contrary is the case. We have more cooperation than ever between Luftwaffe and RAF, crew exchanges, twinning of Conningsby and Laage coordinaton of future developments. The British Brimstone missile is already on the shopping list, with a contract most likely signed this year. Should include the Cobham launcher. And the UK may leave the EU, but there is still NATO.


That is one of several conflicting interests. It would be nice from you to acknowledge, that the F-35 is currently the only game in town for a future proof Tornado replacement. It's the only LO airframe available and it's in different league regarding situational awareness. Having acces to MADL is actually a big thing.

Since all efforts to find a replacement for the SIGINT Antlantiques failed the F-35's abilities would be a godsent. And IF nuklear sharing is still desired the F-35 is the best choice, too.

Of course there are disadvantages. Only single engined, dependend on ALIS, depot maintenance of the engine in Erdoghanistan and so on.

Regarding the new French-German fighter: it is mostly a French aircraft, built to French requirements. Dassault is project lead. The level of German workshare remains to be seen.

Imho it's too small, basically the same size as Rafale. But the French want to operate it from the CdG.

The CdG requirements were what killed French involvement in the Eurofighter program - they needed something that would fit that deck whereas most of the partners (certainly the UK and Germany) wanted something that carried more fuel and weapons - that plus increasing demands from the French for a larger role in development and workshare led to the French exiting the program and going it alone.

Eurofighter as a deep strike platform in contested airspace against a peer opponent ? The pilot best have their affairs in order before taking off - they'll likely have an exciting but brief war.
 

Thüringer

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This is wrong IMHO. The Eurofighter is based on the German TKF 90. The British proposal was a F-18 look-a-like.


At least currently the contrary is the case. We have more cooperation than ever between Luftwaffe and RAF, crew exchanges, twinning of Conningsby and Laage coordinaton of future developments. The British Brimstone missile is already on the shopping list, with a contract most likely signed this year. Should include the Cobham launcher. And the UK may leave the EU, but there is still NATO.


That is one of several conflicting interests. It would be nice from you to acknowledge, that the F-35 is currently the only game in town for a future proof Tornado replacement. It's the only LO airframe available and it's in different league regarding situational awareness. Having acces to MADL is actually a big thing.

Since all efforts to find a replacement for the SIGINT Antlantiques failed the F-35's abilities would be a godsent. And IF nuklear sharing is still desired the F-35 is the best choice, too.

Of course there are disadvantages. Only single engined, dependend on ALIS, depot maintenance of the engine in Erdoghanistan and so on.

Regarding the new French-German fighter: it is mostly a French aircraft, built to French requirements. Dassault is project lead. The level of German workshare remains to be seen.

Imho it's too small, basically the same size as Rafale. But the French want to operate it from the CdG.
The F35 is snubbed and history. As it looks now, the Luftwaffe already placed the order at Airbus. The nuclear sharement agreement is a thing of the past and i think obsolete. I dont see how fighter jets in the 21st century drop nuclear bombs.

My guess is, that in next weeks the F18 is also dropped. They just keep it up as a fig leaf.
 

StobieWan

Super Moderator
Staff member
The nuclear sharement agreement is a thing of the past and i think obsolete. I dont see how fighter jets in the 21st century drop nuclear bombs.
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It's a key requirement of the platform - doesn't matter if you think it's needed or not, it's what the platform selected will need to be able to do.
 

Thüringer

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  • #58
It's a key requirement of the platform - doesn't matter if you think it's needed or not, it's what the platform selected will need to be able to do.
Well then USA has to certify the Eurofighter to that requirement. It doenst matter what i think or not, the decission is made to set on Eurofighter.

If the Eurofighter does not get the certification, they leave some old tornados in the fleet for that requirement.
 

seaspear

Well-Known Member
"Of course there are disadvantages. Only single engined, dependent on ALIS, depot maintenance of the engine in Erdoghanistan and so on" Colour changed by Moderator.
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I have read the the I D.F have turned off their ALIS so as to not share information on their operations even with the U,S
At present there are S400 systems situated in Kalingrad with the ability to track into Eastern Germany ,the F35 is the only aircraft at present able to if required to defeat this system
Future Combat Air System Described by its Designers (excerpt)
(Source: The Restless Technophile; posted Jan 31, 2019)

For the New-Generation Fighter component of FCAS, Dassault favors a tailless, vectored-thrust design with conformal antennas mounted around the airframe. (Dassault image)

The Future Combat Air System, or FCAS, is entering a new phase. It has been launched last April by Germany and France, and Eric Trappier, the CEO of Dassault Aviation, just announced that a new contract would be signed by the end of January.

The aim would be to fly a demonstrator for a piloted aircraft by 2025. FCAS is a major project, a symbol of the strengthened defence cooperation between the two countries, which should be reaffirmed by a new treaty to be signed on January 22.

Beyond politics, the French and German aim to replace their current fleets of combat aircraft by a new system capable to overcome the most modern air defence systems, with an introductory date around 2040. Contrary to previous European defence projects like the Tornado or the Eurofighter aircrafts, FCAS will not be restricted to designing a single fighter jet.

The generic video presentation of the FCAS concept was produced by Airbus, and features its products; the new-generation fighter, for example, will differ substantially from the one illustrated here.


Rather, it will design a force structure, comprising fighters, drones, tankers, advanced early warning aircrafts and complex weapons, each one of them being linked up to a common network to share information and react instantly to enemy threats, which are envisioned to become increasingly connected as well. Indeed, ground radars, command centres and surface to air missiles will probably be networked with jam-resistant links.

Future air warfare should consequently see the air defence network face the FCAS offensive network.

The project is currently in definition phase, and is headed in France by French Air Force General Breton. As it is a very technical endeavour, the French defence procurement agency, DGA, is strongly involved, under the leadership of Chief Armament Engineer Koffi. Both were present at the forum “Innovation Défense” which was held in Paris at the end of November, and gave a conference on the role of innovation in the FCAS project.

Here is a transcript:

General Breton:

The Future Combat Air System FCAS is due to come into service in 2040, 2040 is a long way off. It is therefore necessary to be flexible and agile to be able to constantly adapt to the unexpected.

One way to do this is to use an app model like on smartphones: you can install a new application in a few clicks, which is currently impossible on a fighter aircraft because you have to check that any new software does not have an impact on the flight system for example, while these two softwares must communicate together. FCAS will therefore have to be architected to be able to integrate new applications by ensuring that they do not consume all the memory or battery, to use the smartphone example.

Another way to innovate is through new uses of existing systems: for example, by using the management equipment for the link16 datalink that equips our aircrafts, we can divert it from its initial role as a pure data link by using it for training, by injecting dummy targets to make pilots work on the reaction to be given to them.

An important aspect of innovation on FCAS will be networking: currently on the Rafale, the pilot mainly uses his own sensors and some of the information provided by the network. In FCAS, the proportion will be reversed. The management of the data transfer by the network will be done independently of the pilot, who will see the data merged and will supervise the process.

The analyses we conducted on FCAS are as follows: the missions will be more or less the same as today’s missions. Threats, on the other hand, will have changed significantly. Long-range air defences and denial of access will have spread, enemy aircraft will be stealthy, the enemy will have swarming and collaborative UAVs, hypersonic missiles, integrated land/sea/air/space manoeuvre, and cyber capabilities. If these capacities are the prerogative of a few states today, tomorrow any actor, even a private one for cyber, will have some or all of these capacities.

Faced with this, FCAS provides a system response, with different components. A cruise missile component will deal with high value targets. The highly defended threats will be engaged by remote carriers – drones capable of performing reconnaissance, jamming or even striking. Depending on the defences encountered by the system, it will send either its fast components or its stealth components to counter it by adapting.

AA interception and defence will be carried out by a manned fighter aircraft, as well as specialized missions [nuclear strike--Ed]. The pilot will bring his intelligence to the system, and will be the captain of this football team whose wingers will be drones and remote carriers. (end of excerpt)


The above article shows the ambitions of Dassault and Airbus ,for Germany that cannot keep up the maintenance for most of the Eurofighters to be mission ready shows a huge turnaround in ambitions
I would look forward to reading the expected cost of this very ambitious program

MODERATOR EDIT: @seaspear Do not use GREEN or RED - that is for MODERATOR use ONLY.

Ngatimozart
 
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MarcH

Member
Well then USA has to certify the Eurofighter to that requirement. It doenst matter what i think or not, the decission is made to set on Eurofighter.

If the Eurofighter does not get the certification, they leave some old tornados in the fleet for that requirement.
AFAIK not yet. There is the decision to replace 33 T1 Eurofighter with new built airframes. This is fixed. What we don't have yet is the decision for the Tornado replacement. Tornado could be replaced by Eurofighter, by Super Hornet or by both. A part of the Tornado fleet could even remain in service as nuke carrier.

A full Eurofighter force would go against the current policy of having at least two different front line jet types.
 
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