German navy flagship Gorch Fock propably complete loss

[Todjaeger]

One above said "good will gestures" are inestimable values. It appears good will gestures are only expected from Germany but never the otehr way around?

I take it you are not counting the Marshal Plan as a goodwill gesture then? Or other actions which have occurred since the end of WWII where other nations have aided portions of Germany?

One thing which has been brought up repeatedly but you never address is what would happen to the sail training that 500+ USCGA cadets, USCG OCS students, and NOAA officer candidates engage in each year for periods ranging from one to five weeks.

It could be considered a 'gesture of goodwill' if the USCG had a second or spare sail training vessel that it could part with. What you keep proposing, absent any reasonably workable plan to replace the sail training capability the USCG currently had, would eliminate the USCG and NOAA's ability to continue sea training the way it is currently conducted.

To expect that a branch of the US armed forces should be willing to have future leaders who are less trained because it would be beneficial to Germany to acquire a capability that the US has retained is IMO unreasonable. To keep pushing the idea, while ignoring the very real and reasonable issues which would require planning and or cause legal challenges is IMO neither reasonable or rational.

 

[Thüringer]

@Thüringer You have been given valid reasons for other options but you keep repeating the same old line about the Eagle. Is this because it was originally the Horst Wessel named after a street thug who was a symbol to the misbegotten Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei now a banned organisation in Germany and an organisation that committed so much evil between 1933 and 1945?

This thread is running around in circles and getting no where. Either it improves or the Moderators will act. Consider this a warning.

Vizeadmiral Kurz concentrates on repatriating the ship to Germany. Other options are the Mircea and the one owned by Portugal. Though Kurz said that the "Eagle" is the best option.

The FDP says the best option is to build a new one. The SPD says the Gorch Fock should be repaired.

I side in this with are marines leadership advice and think best option will be to purchase the Eagle.

That said, meanwhile a case was opened against the CEO of the yard involved in the contract to overhaul Gorch Fock.

"Gorch Fock": Untreue-Vorwürfe gegen Werft-Vorstand

To answer your question, no its not because teh ships name was Horst Wessel. According to Kurz it is, because the ship is in the best shape to perform the tasks intended for her.

But since you give it this twist, i totally can see how good it would feel to have a ship formerly named "Horst Wessel" be rebranded and sail for our great nation. The NSDAP has thrown so much dirt on our country and caused so much bad for my nation that i would see it as a positive thing to use this ship for something good.

That it represents our Marine as figurehead on a global scale and helps to give Germany a positive image.

 

[Thüringer]

I take it you are not counting the Marshal Plan as a goodwill gesture then? Or other actions which have occurred since the end of WWII where other nations have aided portions of Germany?

One thing which has been brought up repeatedly but you never address is what would happen to the sail training that 500+ USCGA cadets, USCG OCS students, and NOAA officer candidates engage in each year for periods ranging from one to five weeks.

It could be considered a 'gesture of goodwill' if the USCG had a second or spare sail training vessel that it could part with. What you keep proposing, absent any reasonably workable plan to replace the sail training capability the USCG currently had, would eliminate the USCG and NOAA's ability to continue sea training the way it is currently conducted.

To expect that a branch of the US armed forces should be willing to have future leaders who are less trained because it would be beneficial to Germany to acquire a capability that the US has retained is IMO unreasonable. To keep pushing the idea, while ignoring the very real and reasonable issues which would require planning and or cause legal challenges is IMO neither reasonable or rational.

The USA has several tall ships it can conduct sail training on.

The Niagara for example.

As i see it it could be quite easy to use another great ship to do the training on.

We do this as well, how you think our cadets have training now that teh Gorch Fock is in a yard? We use teh Micea as long we have a replacement.

Or do you think it would be good if german future leaders are less trained when we have no tall ship to train on?

I think the difference is, that for you its just a ship but for Germany it would also function as a national symbol.

 

[ngatimozart]

Who's this Vizeadmiral Kurz you keep citing? Only reference I can find to one is a Vizeadmiral Friedrich Wilhelm Kurze born 5 July 1891; died 23 December 1945 and he's been dead for 73 years now, so a bit hard for him to comment on this.

This is not a request. It's a requirement from a Moderator, so some information with verifiable links will be required.

 

[Todjaeger]

The USA has several tall ships it can conduct sail training on.

The Niagara for example.

As i see it it could be quite easy to use another great ship to do the training on.

We do this as well, how you think our cadets have training now that teh Gorch Fock is in a yard? We use teh Micea as long we have a replacement.

Or do you think it would be good if german future leaders are less trained when we have no tall ship to train on?

I think the difference is, that for you its just a ship but for Germany it would also function as a national symbol.

Thank you for suggesting a ridiculous solution. It demonstrates how much attention is being paid the to impact and implications of doing what you are proposing, as well as how irrational and unreasonable it is that the discussion has gone on this long.

 

[foxdemon]

No need to get rude.

German shipbuilding is worldclass. Calling Blohm&Voss dodgy ... i dont even know what to say about that.

As for this rather worthless tank. What makes you believe Germany has the slightest interest in getting this?

So far i did not even know this tank existed, it propably holds great value for Australians but is totally worthless and unknown for Germans.

You can rest assured that Germany would not even take it, even when you add money on it.

This sounds like Egypt here that wants the statue of a old egyptian queen back from us since years. They then came up and said, if we give their statue back, they give us something formerly owned by Rommel in return. What they got was a big laugh.

That said, nobody said the repatriation of the Eagle would be without compensation. Media here say the budget for a replacement stands at 200 million €. That can be either for a new build ship or to buy one of her sisters.

The admirals here prefer to get one of her sisters and Vizeadmiral Kurz brought up the Eagle as replacement. What happened to the Gorch Fock is currently investigated. It looks like crime and corruption was involved. So investigations have to see whats going on.

@swerve the 15 years come from our defense ministry, building that ship would take one year. But our ridicolous planning and law system would take it to an enormous long time span.

In the end its a political decission, if someone is willing to help us or not.

That old German tank might not look like much but it quite possibly the most valuable tank in the world. There is no other remaining WWI German tank. I don’t think a monetary value could be placed on it. Historians from all over the world visit Australia just to study that tank.

But what concerns me is that you didn’t know the exact history of these school ships or know about the famous tank and also that someone didn’t know what they were doing and wrecked the Gorch Fock II. Surely you can understand that the broader international community might decide it is better to leave a historically significant vessel in the hands of the Americans rather than risk another maintenance accident in Germany. After all, we must think about posterity.

Anyway, I was going to suggest a new build ship to exchange with the Americans (and a second for Australia if you want your tank back). That way everyone would be happy. But I think this is just an exercise in setting the Americans up as the outsider for the sake of appealing to a sense of nationalism in Germany.

And with that, we can say this conversation is over.

 

[Thüringer]

Who's this Vizeadmiral Kurz you keep citing? Only reference I can find to one is a Vizeadmiral Friedrich Wilhelm Kurze born 5 July 1891; died 23 December 1945 and he's been dead for 73 years now, so a bit hard for him to comment on this.

This is not a request. It's a requirement from a Moderator, so some information with verifiable links will be required.

I wrote his name wrong. His name is Krause

Bundeswehr-Admiral Krause: Ein Anti-Habeck in Uniform

 

[Thüringer]

That old German tank might not look like much but it quite possibly the most valuable tank in the world. There is no other remaining WWI German tank. I don’t think a monetary value could be placed on it. Historians from all over the world visit Australia just to study that tank.

But what concerns me is that you didn’t know the exact history of these school ships or know about the famous tank and also that someone didn’t know what they were doing and wrecked the Gorch Fock II. Surely you can understand that the broader international community might decide it is better to leave a historically significant vessel in the hands of the Americans rather than risk another maintenance accident in Germany. After all, we must think about posterity.

Anyway, I was going to suggest a new build ship to exchange with the Americans (and a second for Australia if you want your tank back). That way everyone would be happy. But I think this is just an exercise in setting the Americans up as the outsider for the sake of appealing to a sense of nationalism in Germany.

And with that, we can say this conversation is over.

Nobody in Germany wants that tank. ^^ I assure you 99.9% of people here dont even know this thing.

Its ok you have it.

As for the maintenance issue, i thing it looks like fraud was done there at the yard. The news today say the CEO of the yard is charged with corruption. MAybe whoever did that with the Gorch Fock knew exactly what he did.

At first the amount needed to restaurate her was only around 8 million €. Now 130 million €.

Our defense ministry stopped all payments at the yard so far. It will be interesting to see where this is going.

 

[Thüringer]

Thank you for suggesting a ridiculous solution. It demonstrates how much attention is being paid the to impact and implications of doing what you are proposing, as well as how irrational and unreasonable it is that the discussion has gone on this long.

This discussion is senseless anyways. I´m not an decission maker and none of you as well.

As i said proposals are made and then will be discussed in next days. At the moment best is to wait and see what our leadership decides.

The most important thing for us is to have a operational training vessel back on the sea.