Royal New Zealand Air Force
- Thread starter Lucasnz
- Start date
Who says that it is the C-130J? I for one hope it's not unless the govt has gone for a C130J - A400 / C2 mix or laid it's hands on a couple of 2nd hand C-17s. Otherwise the C-130J in conjunction with an airliner based strategic airlifter is a backward step, further reducing NZDF capabilities, because that's the status quo and NZDF equip is getting larger and heavier, outstripping the C-130's ability to carry it.
The MOD have released a NOI (Notice Of Information) on GETS for a Initial Industry Engagement Workshop: Surveillance System Case Study in Air Surveillance Complementary Capability Project. This is to be held at the end of the month and part of it is looking at linkages between this and the FAMC. One does hope that the Herc replacement decision will be announced prior.
Redlands18
Well-Known Member
Novascotiaboy
Active Member
Redlands I hope it’s three of each. The standard Js in SOF configuration. Once the tactical is sorted then bring on the discussion of strategic aircraft.
Passenger / combi / rear ramp. My hope is a ramp so that leaves C2 and A400 to fight it out.
Passenger / combi / rear ramp. My hope is a ramp so that leaves C2 and A400 to fight it out.
Exkiwiforces
New Member
NZG/ MoD and RNZAF should stay away from any offer of 2nd hand C-17’s from US, remember the 2nd Type 12’s we brought of the UK in the 70’-80’s. As the US C-17’s have been worked very hard over the last years in supporting the US Military in the MER and from my own experience in the MER working with USAF in MER they had at the time deferred minor maintenance IOT to maintain Op tempo and the only other nation that flew the C-17 harder than USAF is the RAF. I believe the RAF’s are having a few issues now because of the hard use over the years in MER.
The Last Labour Government really stuff things up when they didn’t take up the option for 8 J Models on back of the Aussie order and the preferred Huey replacement which was the Blackhawk as both replacement projects got caned over political ideologies, but the National Government should’ve bit the bullet and turned it into firm order for the J’s before the wits were issued.
The only option for the NZG, MoD and RNZAF is a mix Airlift capability of both heavy and medium airlifters, which is doable if it’s staged like heavy ones first followed by the medium ones while still maintaining the current fleet, when one takes into account the effects of CC, geological unrest within the region and in NZ and operational tempo of the NZDF and I expect that the there will be a drawdown of NZDF personal from the MER as the Airlift replacement starts IOT maintain its outputs within the SP, SEA, Antarctic and around NZ.
Above all in my opinion the benchmark should always be at what we done and what went wrong during INTERFET.
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John Fedup
The Bunker Group
Obviously NZ would require careful evaluation of any used C-17s offered but as used kit goes, a good choice. Likely a safer long term investment than a new A400M.
Todjaeger
Potstirrer
It would depend on exactly which USAF C-17's might be offered for sale, if any. The USAF had specified one number of C-17's to order, but when Congress passed the appropriate defence procurement budgets, it increased the number of C-17's the USAF was directed to order. I forget exactly how many more were ordered, but ~20 comes to mind. The 'extra' C-17's were either immediately mothballed, or used to replace early production C-17's which were mothballed much sooner than the USAF had originally planned.
I blame Boeing. They could've built 20 white tails or more and sold them all. They left money on the table, IMO.
Agree with you on the ex RN frigates. Didn't realise that the USAF C-17s have been flown so hard. Have known about maintenance being deferred and it just wasn't on C-17s but right across the military aviation sector due to sequestration.
Wits or writs?
. Think what you wrote is more applicable. I have a copy of the released documentation on the Huey replacement and it states that the NH-90 was the preferred option because it met the Army's requirements, which the Blackhawk didn't. Also note that our closest partner was acquiring the NH-90 at the same time to replace its Blackhawks, so that would've factored into the decision making as well. Even if the previous govt had signed the contracts, Uncle Helen would've cancelled them and paid the penalties, just like it did with the F-16 contract which had been signed.Agree with your last paragraph and your benchmark is a good one, although I would add what we logically could be required to undertake in the near future.
Exkiwiforces
New Member
i don’t think the USG or the USAF would be to keen to give up a few C17’s and my gut feeling is that NZG and Co will go for new fames instead of 2nd hand one as it would be like kicking a Tui can down the road for only reappear it’s ugly head in 10-15 yrs later. Going for new fames will mean that NZG and Co will get a least a minimum of 40yrs out of them depending on rate of use.
That's a bit unfair. Potential customers had plenty of warning that Boeing were closing the C-17 production line. Building aircraft on spec is a risky business and they did well to sell the 10 white tails. If those hadn't sold that could've been a US$2 billion black hole.
I think that the A400 is starting to come right and like the F-35 it has had a somewhat difficult gestation. Same with the NH90 and we starting to see some good gains with that after the usual birthing pains.
I agree - the A400 is looking better after operational service and engineering refinements. Recently discussed the RR Trent engines used on the Boeing 787 *s with an AirNZ engineer and he stated that all aircraft engines have various teething problems so they wait for modifications and approvals and then carry on and fix the problem.
Exkiwiforces
New Member
Yes the yanks were deferring maintenance all over the place, even the black handlers at TDL were marking parts for the USMC F18 during Southern Deployments to TDL.Agree with you on the ex RN frigates. Didn't realise that the USAF C-17s have been flown so hard. Have known about maintenance being deferred and it just wasn't on C-17s but right across the military aviation sector due to sequestration.
Wits or writs?
Agree with your last paragraph and your benchmark is a good one, although I would add what we logically could be required to undertake in the near future.
I’m not sure what doc you have have Paul, but at one stage according to my uncle and a couple of his 3SQN mates the Blackhawk had the inside running as the Blackhawk can just fit inside the Hec and the J model was the prefer option, but it all changed once the J model was drop, also there were some concerns from the green machine of the Blackhawk post INTERFET and comments from my uncle who became involved some RNZAF projects team post ACF disbanding “that the green machine was piss farting about that the Blackhawk was dropped in favour of the NH90 which wasn’t the prefer by the maintainers due to risk and the Blackhawk offer least risk along more fames.”
Either way the NH90 is a great Helo, but as my uncle said last yr while I was at his home in Feilding “He said the biggest 3 issues with the NH90’s it not the Navy version (corrosion issues), can’t fit into a Hec at shot notice (need a bigger plane) and the lack of numbers, we sent over 6 or 8 huey’s to ET and we could still maintain outputs at the time and any other short notice requirements, but if we send 4 NH’s overseas on deployment to support the Army we have no fat at home to support the Army’s training or any other outputs that GotD requires us to do. As a treasury wonk said to him in Wellywood, but you have a 50% increase in Airlift capability! Ah yes we do but an NH90 can’t be in 3 places at once as we need one in maintenance, one for training for the army and short notice standby within NZ, one on deployment and when they get older they will need will more maintenance. Like you my uncle said it’s all about numbers and with a look of our treasury wonk trying to fit a square peg into a round hole my uncle left him ponder as he didn’t know how respond to back to my uncle at the time.
Wit or Writs at least you knew what i meant, thank god as I’m at the Dundee Lodge overlooking the Timor sucking on a few cold ones as I can’t get Wifi at my Bach/ Crib 10km down the road with radio on atm.
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kiwipatriot69
Active Member
Will the strategic lift need to be decided about the same time as the tactical, what condition are the 757 in?
The B757 replacement isn't slated until 2025, however having said that it's somewhat difficult to load a LAV or other pieces of outsized and / or heavy kit into a B757 and deliver it to an austere location. We are treading unknown territory here at the moment because the FASC and FAMC projects are the first ones that have really progressed under the acquisitions system where the pollies are given a solid business case backed up by high quality data and analysis that the bean counters have been involved with are even comfortable with.
kiwipatriot69
Active Member
kiwipatriot69
Active Member
Would have thought at least we would have a short list issued by now on their replacements. 2025 is a long way off, it could be left for a future govt to decide on, Jacinda might not be around that long.
That's seven years away and far to soon to look at short lists for the B757. The Hercules are the the aircraft needing urgent replacement. The FAMC is looking at NZDF fixed wing air mobility in toto, so until their findings are released we actually don't know. Previously the RNZAF decided what it thought fitted the other two services needs, said what it wanted and that was that. This is really the first time that this has been done right across defence so it's on unfamiliar territory. Whether the current PM is around or not when the B757 is replaced is neither here nor there.
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
The A400M and the F-35 have had their issues during development but the former doesn't have the same commitment level from its customers and the manufacturer IMO. As for performance, the A400M still has a way to go. Airbus is fortunate that potential competitors Embraer and Kawasaki aren't ready for prime time yet. Had Boeing stayed in with their C-17, some customers may very well have walked away from the A400M in favour of C-17/C-130J packages.