Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates

[beegee]

The Iver Hutfields were originally built in Lithuania and Estonia. I would imagine if you wanted a overseas build of something like that then Lithuania would be the low cost option. If they Type 31 is based off this design, it still might be possible to have block built cheaper in Lithuania and shipped to the UK for final assembly.

To be honest NZ needs to work out what they want and see if they can join an existing production.

The future for NZ's shipbuilding needs isn't Europe or the USA, it's Asia.
And it doesn't need to be part of an existing production, why would it? Thailand has recently purchased two frigates from SK (built in Thailand with technology transfer) and the Philippines are getting two light frigates from SK. Both are getting designs tailored to their requirements, not someone elses, at very reasonable prices.

 

[MrConservative]

The Iver Hutfields were originally built in Lithuania and Estonia. I would imagine if you wanted a overseas build of something like that then Lithuania would be the low cost option. If they Type 31 is based off this design, it still might be possible to have block built cheaper in Lithuania and shipped to the UK for final assembly.

Not necessarily the low cost option. But the value proposition which would include build quality, fitout and standards as part of its remit.

Type 31e is a UK build as per the Babcock contract. It is a licensed design evolution. I suspect we would be looking at another OMT Design variant of the F370 original design if that was chosen as the platform.

 

[StingrayOZ]

You have to throw in risk and technology access.
Given the current relationship with Thailand, you wouldn't really want to do any fitout there, personally I wouldn't build anything there. You would be better off building in Vietnam. SK has a huge ship building industry so they would definitely be an option, depending how much you are involve with S.Korean state enterprises.

I would hope NZ would aim a bit higher than Philippines level of capability. I don't think the Incheons/Daegu-class are really what NZ is looking for. They are more coastal based.

 

[beegee]

You have to throw in risk and technology access.
Given the current relationship with Thailand, you wouldn't really want to do any fitout there, personally I wouldn't build anything there. You would be better off building in Vietnam. SK has a huge ship building industry so they would definitely be an option, depending how much you are involve with S.Korean state enterprises.

I would hope NZ would aim a bit higher than Philippines level of capability. I don't think the Incheons/Daegu-class are really what NZ is looking for. They are more coastal based.

NZ is currently having it's new replenishment ship, the Aotearoa, built by Hyundai HI in SK. This ship is based on a Rolls-Royce design. The ship the Aotearoa replaces was also built by Hyundai in SK. So NZ already has a working relationship with Hyundai and experience in taking a European design and building it in SK.

Ngatimozart's suggested plan (and I think it's a brilliant one) would be to employ OMT to design NZ a frigate based on their Iver Huitfeldt design and to have them built in SK.

Hyundai HI have built two Sejong the Great class destroyers for the ROK navy. These are very impressive ships, equipped with Aegis, SPY-1 and Mk 41 VLS. I doubt there would be any issues around technology transfer or Hyundai's ability to build top quality, advanced combat ships.

 

[Xthenaki]

Technically a no brainer. Politically very unstable with Kim next door. In seven to eight years time would we be guaranteed delivery of our vessels.

 

[StingrayOZ]

SK could certainly build, my comment about tech was more about Thailand. Still SK builds have their own issues, who will integrate it? CAMM, combat system? Radar? I would assume NZ would go Aster rather than Sm series given their current direction.

Also I assume you are talking about a 3 or 4 ship build?

Benchmarking european countries like Norway or Denmark I think would be a good exercise for NZ.

 

[ngatimozart]

Technically a no brainer. Politically very unstable with Kim next door. In seven to eight years time would we be guaranteed delivery of our vessels.

You pays your money; you takes your chances. We could go elsewhere if needs be. Japan or further afield although Thailand and India I would avoid. Even if the ships were built in the Baltic's or eastern Europe and possible fitted out here if necessary.

 

[Xthenaki]

You pays your money; you takes your chances. We could go elsewhere if needs be. Japan or further afield although Thailand and India I would avoid. Even if the ships were built in the Baltic's or eastern Europe and possible fitted out here if necessary.

I agree. A decision to be made at the time of commitment to build.

 

[MrConservative]

SK could certainly build, my comment about tech was more about Thailand. Still SK builds have their own issues,

I would ignore Thailand as an unlikely outlier. Pretty much one can point the naughty stick at all build programs and outcomes if we were to look for issues. SK yards are very good at what they do with respect to naval vessels - their bench mark is the USN and Japan.

who will integrate it? CAMM, combat system? Radar?

Try Lockheed Martin.

I would assume NZ would go Aster rather than Sm series given their current direction.

Their current direction if you are alluding to the ANZAC upgrade has no bearing other than the selection of CAMM(M). The current Kiwi Anzac capability upgrades are just that - an upgrade designed to keep the vessels allegedly relevant for the next decade and not a portend to what the RNZN will plum for in future frigate class that will not be in commission post 2030. I would not assume Aster at all particularly that the USN and RAN are not onboard with it.

 

[MrConservative]

You pays your money; you takes your chances. We could go elsewhere if needs be. Japan or further afield although Thailand and India I would avoid. Even if the ships were built in the Baltic's or eastern Europe and possible fitted out here if necessary.

Vessels like the MV Marlin can transport a completed ships hull such as an AB globally if contracted to do the job. It carted the JS McCain away.

It certainly is not impossible to have section blocks built in different places, assembled at one location and then have the vessel integrated elsewhere.

It is also certainly not impossible to have a european design evolution of a current vessel, built in a SK yard (which for them is simply a business proposition) and have the integration of American systems (such as what actually happens with LM through its SK subsidiary with the KDX and Malaysian Corvettes).

OMT design the hull for example an evolution of the F370 design under a commercial contract, DSME or HHI build the hull and MOTS installation under a commercial contract, LM manage - lead contract the integration viz CMS, EW, radars, sensors, which could happen where the RNZN / NZ GOTD sees fit. Which may be in SK or somewhere else if that was cost and quality effective.

 

[t68]

Their current direction if you are alluding to the ANZAC upgrade has no bearing other than the selection of CAMM(M). The current Kiwi Anzac capability upgrades are just that - an upgrade designed to keep the vessels allegedly relevant for the next decade and not a portend to what the RNZN will plum for in future frigate class that will not be in commission post 2030. I would not assume Aster at all particularly that the USN and RAN are not onboard with it.

I just don’t understand the logic,But from my POV why dump a system for 10-12 years then go and put that same system in the very next ship, it not like the hardware became irrelevant it was more of an upgrade to the CMS

 

[beegee]

SK could certainly build, my comment about tech was more about Thailand. Still SK builds have their own issues, who will integrate it? CAMM, combat system? Radar? I would assume NZ would go Aster rather than Sm series given their current direction.

I assume integration would be the responsibility of the shipbuilder, like it usually is, either directly or via sub-contract.

I'm not sure why you would think this would be a problem with a SK build. SK has been successfully integrating systems in the warships they build for decades.

Here's a list of the systems going into the Philippines' frigates being built by Hyundai:

Hanwha Systems Naval Shield Baseline 2 Integrated CMS
Hensoldt TRS-3D Baseline D multi-mode phased array C-band Radar
Airbus MSSR 20001 Identification Friend of Foe (IFF) System
Leonardo Selex ES NA-25X Fire Control Radar
Harris Corporation Model 997 medium frequency active/passive ASW hull mounted sonar
Hanwha Systems Link P Tactical Data Link
Elbit Systems Elisra NS9300A Electronic Support Measure (ESM)
Terma C-Guard countermeasure system
Safran PASEO NS Electro-Optical Tracking System (EOTS)
Aselsan SMASH 30mm RCWS as secondary weapon
Servowatch Integrated Platform Management System

Hyundai are integrating that eclectic mix of equipment together, from at least 7 different countries. I think NZ's integration requirements would be a walk in the park after that lot.

Also I assume you are talking about a 3 or 4 ship build?

The NZ navy has been very vocal about the fact that 2 frigates isn't enough and they need 3.

Benchmarking european countries like Norway or Denmark I think would be a good exercise for NZ.

Absolutely.

 

[MrConservative]

I just don’t understand the logic,But from my POV why dump a system for 10-12 years then go and put that same system in the very next ship, it not like the hardware became irrelevant it was more of an upgrade to the CMS

Explaining what you don't understand may help me explain it to you. I am unsure of what you are saying. What system is being dumped for 12 years?

 

[Redlands18]

Vessels like the MV Marlin can transport a completed ships hull such as an AB globally if contracted to do the job. It carted the JS McCain away.

It certainly is not impossible to have section blocks built in different places, assembled at one location and then have the vessel integrated elsewhere..

They used the Marlin type Vessels to transport the 2 Canberra Hulls from Spain to Australia, so a 5-6000t Frigate should be relatively easy.

 

[beegee]

I just don’t understand the logic,But from my POV why dump a system for 10-12 years then go and put that same system in the very next ship, it not like the hardware became irrelevant it was more of an upgrade to the CMS

The Mk 41 wasn't abandoned, it was removed from two ships to save space and weight needed for other systems in the ANZAC upgrade. It was a purely pragmatic decision to give the best outcome for the upgrade. If it had made sense to keep it, they would have.

If NZ wants a warfighting capability in it's new frigates beyond a medium caliber gun, a local area air defence missile and a helicopter (and that's a big if), then they will need a flexible missile launch system like the Mk 41. A weapon setup like the T26 would make sense, with Sea Ceptor as the initial AD system (pulled through from the ANZACS to save coin) and Mk41s to carry any other missile that the platform may require, both now and in the future.

 

[ngatimozart]

The Mk 41 wasn't abandoned, it was removed from two ships to save space and weight needed for other systems in the ANZAC upgrade. It was a purely pragmatic decision to give the best outcome for the upgrade. If it had made sense to keep it, they would have.

If NZ wants a warfighting capability in it's new frigates beyond a medium caliber gun, a local area air defence missile and a helicopter (and that's a big if), then they will need a flexible missile launch system like the Mk 41. A weapon setup like the T26 would make sense, with Sea Ceptor as the initial AD system (pulled through from the ANZACS to save coin) and Mk41s to carry any other missile that the platform may require, both now and in the future.

IIRC the MK-41 they have is the mod 5 so I think that it might be the self defence variant. Off hand I can't find any specific details on it.

 

[t68]

Explaining what you don't understand may help me explain it to you. I am unsure of what you are saying. What system is being dumped for 12 years?

Sorry referring to the MK 41, from what I understand from your post is the MK 41 is still in the mix for the Anzac replacement. if they still value it why get rid of it for a stop gap at additional expense

 

[ngatimozart]

Sorry referring to the MK 41, from what I understand from your post is the MK 41 is still in the mix for the Anzac replacement. if they still value it why get rid of it for a stop gap at additional expense

They haven't got rid of it. They've placed it into storage. They have appear to have replaced it due to upper deck weight concerns.

 

[StingrayOZ]

The ANZAC's are very top weight sensitive, as all forces have found.
I was quite amazed at moving off the ESSM and going CAMM and then even more surprised with Canada chosen to do it and going with the CMS330. It seemed odd, because Australia has spent loads on pretty spectacular upgrades, and NZ could dovetail into that very easily if NZ was looking at just keeping them relevant.

There were some reports of issues with the Philippines frigate build, particularly around the combat system and integration.
Rough sailing for Navy’s ‘grandest’ modernization project

 

[ngatimozart]

The ANZAC's are very top weight sensitive, as all forces have found.
I was quite amazed at moving off the ESSM and going CAMM and then even more surprised with Canada chosen to do it and going with the CMS330. It seemed odd, because Australia has spent loads on pretty spectacular upgrades, and NZ could dovetail into that very easily if NZ was looking at just keeping them relevant.

There were some reports of issues with the Philippines frigate build, particularly around the combat system and integration.
Rough sailing for Navy’s ‘grandest’ modernization project

The author must have found a thesaurus of nautical terms. Stinks of Philippine domestic politics, TBH. I have a friend who lives there and he would say that would be the sanitised version. He says that political infighting and govt mismanagement and inefficiencies are, unfortunately not unknown there.